Forums

FACT CHECKING COUNTDOWN: An Anti-FUD, Anti-Troll Theorem Thread

FACT CHECKING COUNTDOWN: An Anti-FUD, Anti-Troll Theorem Thread

● FEAR -- Fear that Tesla is in fact some sort of scam that is pushing the Green Agenda for nefarious purposes...
-- Fear that you might be counted among the number of FOOLS that have been led astray by pie-in-the-sky 'promises' that are certain to NEVER happen...
● UNCERTAINTY -- Uncertainty that Tesla's cars will ever be viable for more than a handful of months or years and that the batteries will die practically overnight then be ridiculously expensive to replace...
-- Uncertainty that anything Tesla builds will be 'worth the money' in any way, without the traditional styling, commitment to craftsmanship, attention to detail, and dedication to heritage that 'everyone else' claims to excel in...
-- Uncertainty that you may have fallen under the spell of a fast talking flim-flam man, shyster, or lying con artist who has preyed upon your deepest hopes to deceive you...
● DOUBT -- Doubt that Tesla will be around to handle warranty concerns after they go out of business in disgrace following the shenanigans of Elon Musk are inevitably exposed for the manipulative lies they've always been...
-- Doubt that Tesla has the expertise to do anything at all they claim to be planning...

These are the tools that Trolls use to spread their Theorem, Thesis, & Theatrical displays of alarm and warning that nothing anyone hears about Tesla that is in the slightest bit positive can be trusted at face value. They tell anyone that listens that supporters of Elon Musk and/or Tesla are 'blind followers' that don't know any better, steeple that have fallen under the spell of a master manipulator and complete liar. A false leader with the sole goal of selling his lies as fact to gullible followers.

Trolls have suggested for several years that Tesla is destined to go out of business 'any day now'. Some of the most famous Trolls are Anton Wahlman, Edward Niedermier, Keefe Wivaneff, and others.

Crap. Deleted my post by mistake. Starting over with an earlier save...

Anyway, lost a good bit of what I had written before. Since HIM666 refuses to specify when Tesla is 'going out of business' I'll assume that since his previous guesses were wrong (he indicated multiple times between October 2017 and March 2018 that Tesla would 'run out of money and go bankrupt within two quarters'), he might choose a time frame in the relative near future to be wrong this time. So, he would likely claim that no one, anywhere, will order or receive the base, Standard Range Model 3 prior to January 1, 2019, and also claim that Tesla will file bankruptcy on, by, or before March 31, 2019.

We'll see.

cafutter | 23 October 2018

As of 11:03 AM today with the DJIA down >$449, Tesla stock price is up 15.05 (5.77%) $276/share.

To quote ReD "Tesla didn’t file for bankruptcy and did NOT go out of business."

Looking forward to the earnings reports tomorrow so people can stop asking me if I am worried about Elon and the company going out of business.

cascadiadesign | 23 October 2018

"... I find it amazing that the legion of FUDsters, Trolls, & $#0r+s have largely abandoned this site now. "

Yep - Been much more pleasant to read this forum lately after MOS threw in the towel and left.

I was looking at the latest US sales graph today of Tesla vs the other luxury brands. To borrow a phrase from MOS, "And so it continues."

jimglas | 23 October 2018

MOS is still lurking and DERPs on occasion

cafutter | 23 October 2018

Now up to 284 (up 23.6) 9.08%

andy.connor.e | 23 October 2018

I just posted this on another thread, but anyone who has been on these forums since 2016, we have all been saying this all along. The facts and truth will eventually catch up with peoples reality. And eventually there will be nothing left to short sell, because Tesla is dominating the market whether your feelings like it or not. You cannot base Teslas success off your opinion of Musk as a CEO, as a impulsive Tweeter, or as someone who is excessively overly optimistic. The media will play the political game and make Tesla seem like a failure by ripping apart Musk's political image. While Tesla improves quality and quantity drastically faster than any other company. No one is taking EVs seriously right now, so Tesla is on the exponential gain literally because of the lack of market competition.

The best part is that their cars arent cheap either. So the only real EV market competition is seriously the best technology that we have in this day & age. Reality finally catching up with some folks. Maybe.

ReD eXiLe ms us | 24 October 2018

Yesterday, and the day before, Tesla didn’t file for bankruptcy and did NOT go out of business.

Also, Elon Musk was not indicted, arrested, arraigned, tried, or convicted of anything criminal at all. Neither was he fired. Oh, and he didn't quit either.

TSLA close
$260.95 ___ 2018-10-22
$294.14 ___ 2018-10-23

Meanwhile...

_$28.54 ___ BMW (BMWYY)
$810.00 ___ Audi AG (AUDVF)
_$14.66 ___ Daimler AG/ADR (DMLRY)
_$15.81 ___ Volkswagen (VWAGY [VLKAY]
_$32.12 ___ General Motors Company (GM)
__$8.59 ___ Ford Motor Company (F)
_$16.58 ___ Fiat Chrysler NV (FCA)
_$11.46 ___ Mazda Motor Corp (MAZDAF)
$117.97 ___ Toyota Motor Corp (TM)
_$27.17 ___ Honda Motor Ltd (HMC)

Yet the FUDster banner still flies...

'Tesla stock soars after notorious short changes his tune' -- CNN

'More smoke and mirrors coming fron Tesla' -- Forbes

'Tesla jumped the gun on 3rd Quarter Earnings' -- Business Insider

I can see in my mind's eye so many Chief Editors desperately attempting to find some way to garner negative spin for Tesla's current situation. Those poor guys, working so hard to satisfy their masters, their advertisers... And finding no purchase as they flail about in the face of reality... Time to round file those headlines heralding Tesla's inevitable downfall, I guess...

ltphoto | 24 October 2018

Already saw one headline that said "Tesla Profitable In Spite of Elon". They'll never give up.

Xerogas | 24 October 2018

@ReD eXiLe ms us: I can’t wait for your update post-Q3 earnings call!

cascadiadesign | 24 October 2018

"... so many Chief Editors desperately attempting to find some way to garner negative spin for Tesla's current situation

Yes, case in point: Engadget has a headline today which reads," Tesla turns a profit in Q3 despite Musk"

ReD eXiLe ms us | 25 October 2018

Yesterday, and the day before, Tesla didn’t file for bankruptcy and did NOT go out of business.

Also, Elon Musk was not indicted, arrested, arraigned, tried, or convicted of anything criminal at all. Neither was he fired. Oh, and he didn't quit either.

Cory Johnson of Bloomberg floated the theory that Tesla was fundamentally unprofitable. He said that the Model 3 would be their ultimate downfall. Because the way he saw it, Tesla 'lost' millions/billions per car sold, so the more cars they sold the more money they would 'lose', thus selling over a magnitude more cars by adding the Model 3 to their fleet of offerings would surely drive the company into bankruptcy.

Trolls have had similar theories for years. What amazes me is that the NaySayers and NEVERSayers that call themselves 'professional ANALysts' have managed to keep their jobs, while being incredibly biased and obviously ignoring such wide expanses of evidence that proved their theorems WRONG. They ignored that evidence day-after-day, week-after-week, month-after-month, quarter-after-quarter, year-after-year... And now, after all this time, they act surprised that Tesla turned a sizable profit?

In an effort to 'save face' Andrew Left flipped from $#0R+ to LONG on TSLA (with the caveat that he only holds that position through Q4 2018). Wow. What an amazing development. All he had to do was LOOK AT THE DATA HE HAD BEEN IGNORING, then realize that Tesla was, "Destroying the competition!" Idiot. Tesla has been doing that since 2013. The Model S has outsold the competition, sans Mercedes-Benz S-Class consecutively cumulatively, and combined since its first full year on the U.S. market, 2013. So, DUH.

Why ANALysts would NOT note that fact is beyond me. Because it was very obvious to me, way back in 2014, that the Model 3 would do the same and more. I had seen multiple testimonials from owners who had NEVER spent over $40,000 for a car, that bought a Model S when a test drive proved it was 'worth it'. I had seen multiple reports from extremely frugal individuals who had only purchased used cars for decades that stated the Model S was the FIRST car they had EVER PURCHASED NEW. Some said that they were 'well off' due to years of conservative saving and a long career spent saving for the future. Almost none identified themselves as 'rich' while several stated that they 'stretched' to buy a Model S, after owning a Toyota PRIUS. So, to me it is no surprise that people who owned Accord, Camry, Civic, and Corolla cars are 'moving up' to Model 3.

Because it is WORTH IT. No one else that offers 'Entry Level Luxury' cars has been able to make such a leap in adoption. Not Acura, AUDI, BMW, Cadillac, Infiniti, Lexus, Lincoln, or Mercedes-Benz. I'm sure they wanted to, and would have gladly celebrated the idea that so many relatively 'low end', 'regular' customers moved beyond seeing their products as merely 'aspirational' and chose to BUY them in droves instead. The BMW 3-Series has reached the top twenty best selling passenger cars in the U.S. before. It has NEVER reached the top five. And 3-Series hasn't sold that well since 2014, despite introducing a revised version for MY 2017.

This was an obvious happenstance. Because so many chose to [IGNORE] Tesla. They never expected the company to survive, let alone THRIVE. And all competitors chose to do the EXACT WRONG THING in response. When they should have introduced their own long range fully electric cars instead.

Unfortunately for them, they believed their own FUD.

andy.connor.e | 25 October 2018

They in fact will never give up. There is so much money involved with what they are disrupting. They are not going to just let electric technology make them change willingly.

ReD eXiLe ms us | 27 October 2018

Yesterday, and the day before, Tesla didn’t file for bankruptcy and did NOT go out of business.

Also, Elon Musk was not indicted, arrested, arraigned, tried, or convicted of anything criminal at all. Neither was he fired. Oh, and he didn't quit either.

Ford (F)
13.23 ___ 2018-01-12
_8.98 ___ 2019-10-26
_8.17 ___ 52 week low
13.48 ___ 52 week high

So, today Ford (F) closed 32.12% below its Calendar high, and 9.91% above its 52 week low.  Progress?  Meh.

Tesla (TSLA)
379.57 ___ 2018-08-07
330.90 ___ 2018-10-26
244.59 ___ 52 week low
387.46 ___ 52 week high

Thus, Tesla (TSLA) closed 12.82% below its Calendar high, and 35.28% above its 52 week low.  Plus, Tesla's low in the past 52 weeks amounts to 1,814.46% of Ford's 52 week high.

I'm no ANALyst, but these numbers seem to be telling me something.  Can you guess what?  Ford should be very happy that Tesla has not yet chosen to Unveil a Pickup Truck platform, release its expected abilities and specifications, expected date of Deliveries, provide pricing, or begin taking Reservations for it.

Earl and Nagin ... | 28 October 2018

Unfortunately, I suspect that the Shorts have just turned to Longs now that good news is out. They'll undoubtedly be pumping as much positive BS as they did negative before. Then, as soon as the stock goes up, they'll flip again and start sowing more FUD again to bring it down.
The FUD is just worse because it is pushed by those being disrupted as well as the stock Shorts.
The nonsense doesn't matter though: Tesla just keeps selling great cars to happy customers at a profit.

ReD eXiLe ms us | 28 October 2018

Yesterday, and the day before, Tesla didn’t file for bankruptcy and did NOT go out of business.

Also, Elon Musk was not indicted, arrested, arraigned, tried, or convicted of anything criminal at all. Neither was he fired. Oh, and he didn't quit either.

Here are the FUDlines...

□ Tesla is going to have to spend an absolutely staggering amount of money in the next few years -- Business Insider

□ Tesla Faces Deepening Criminal Probe Over Whether It Misstated Production Figures -- The Wall Street Journal

□ Tesla slashed the price of the Model 3 Performance and buyers who purchased before the price cut have some thoughts about it -- Yahoo!

Naturally, I didn't click any of the links. These FUDlines tell me all I need to know. Someone is just making up $#!+ to turn in by deadline and fill space.

They can't bring themselves to not use clickbait titles. No matter the actual subject or how old the data their insincerity shows through. They have nothing to say of worth. They only want to mention 'Tesla' to get clicks, not to provide information.

Why do I always imagine John Stossel or Geraldo Rivera doing a voiceover of lines like this?

ReD eXiLe ms us | 29 October 2018

Yesterday, and the day before, Tesla didn’t file for bankruptcy and did NOT go out of business.

Also, Elon Musk was not indicted, arrested, arraigned, tried, or convicted of anything criminal at all. Neither was he fired. Oh, and he didn't quit either.

One of the continual pieces of FUD that is brought up about Tesla is that, "If there are no local car dealerships, who is going to support local Little Leagues nationwide? Obviously, without local 'independent franchised deakerships' there is no concerned representation that would care about supporting youth sports..." God, that is such bull$#!+.

It completely overlooks that the reason why Billy Bob Bleuhardt's Big Blue World of cars or the various hundreds of PENSKE Automotive, ELWAY, ROBINSON, or other multibrand dealership organizations 'sponsor' such child athletics is because they get what they perceive as a benefit as a result. ADVERTISING SPACE on the backs of the children who wear the uniforms, t-shirts, jerseys, and jackets that are provided as a result of those 'sponsorships'. They also get their name and logo on cards and refrigerator magnets and flyers and posters and plaques that promote league activities. They also get a prominent mention in newspaper articles that cover the results of playoffs and championship series, along with photo opportunities with the 'winners' they 'sponsored' standing next to signs of their business name and logo. What did Don King say, "No matter the result of the fight, always stand next to the WINNER!"

Anyway, in the comments section of a YouTube video I recently watched, someone brought up this FUD once again, and I responded fully. Then someone else came along to support the premise of 'sponsorship' wondering why I kept mentioning 'ADVERTISING'. This was my response...

ADVERTISING STILL SUCKS...

OK. General Motors spends between $3,000,000,000 to $4,000,000,000 every year on advertising in the United States of America alone. Since they typically sell around 3,000,000 vehicles in the U.S. each year, that is at least $1,000 per vehicle. That is $1,000 that Tesla is not spending for each Model 3, that Chevrolet spends on every CRUZE & MALIBU. The Model 3 outsells the CRUZE & MALIBU.

I have always considered advertising as money that is thrown away. So the age old theorem that "The more you tell, the more you sell!" is not necessarily true. Along with the notion that paying for advertising is simply 'The cost of doing business.' -- that is also a fallacy.

Suggesting that Tesla should sponsor child sports THE SAME WAY that 'independent franchised dealerships' do is tantamount to saying Tesla should advertise, and that is simply BULL$#!+ as far as I'm concerned.

The time may come when Tesla does contribute to support Boys & Girls Club, Pop Warner Football, YMCA, Salvation Army, Little League, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, 4H Club, and the like -- but that absolutely does NOT mean they should advertise themselves to do it. They don't have any need to have children wearing uniforms that advertise their names or put up scoreboards emblazoned with 'TESLA', or put up placards, streamers, and banners at playing fields that read 'Proudly Brought to You by... TESLA!' at all.

They can donate to such causes anonymously, without any Quid Pro Quo that requires kids to ADVERTISE the wares and services of their business. I would find that disapointing and disgusting. That $#!+ can be done by Coca-Cola, PepsiCo, Reebok, Nike, UnderArmour, PowerAde, LifeWater, Gatorade, Disani, and all the rest who believe in advertising. Tesla does NOT have to join them in that endeavor, which has always seemed a sketchy prospect to me anyway, today, tomorrow, or EVER. Get it now?

Magic 8 Ball | 29 October 2018

Little league is most important to society, I spent many years learning my social skills by trash talking from the bench. Are you a pitcher or a belly itcher? And since you mentioned beseball (as a SF Giants fan) thank you Sox.

I'm good with more fundamental/essential stuff:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/elon-musk-says-he-will-fund-water-filt...

ReD eXiLe ms us | 29 October 2018

Magic 8 Ball: Yeah. I have probably seen thousands of beer commercials that ended with, "Anheuser-Busch, St Louis, Missouri". I still don't buy their beer. Because, unlike numerous members of my Family, I am amazingly NOT an alcoholic. I am happy they sponsored so many of my favorite television shows and sporting events, so that I got to watch and enjoy them over the years.

If Coca-Cola suddenly stopped advertising, I absolutely would not 'forget' they existed. It has been over 25 years I think since PepsiCo bought Pizza Hut, and every time I eat a pizza there I want a Coke, not a Pepsi. I usually have an Orange soda or Root Beer instead. Oh, but never actual beer -- that stuff sucks and tastes horrible. Though my drunkard friends and every host on Food Network all insist that Beer & Pizza is the greatest culinary combination of all time. No. It isn't. It sucks.

My point is that for me, advertising tends to have the opposite of the intended effect. Easily 90% of the advertising I encounter is for products I don't buy, do NOT want, will NEVER buy, and that I have a poor opinion of the people who DO buy them. Places like The GAP and NORDSTROM'S or KAY's Jewelers for instance.

That said, I did notice when Coor's, Miller, and Anheuser-Busch supplied disaster locations with cans of distilled water over the years. That is proper marketing & promotion. Much better than any other advertisements they have aired over the years. It is good they took the time to ask the right question, "What can we do to help?" Then did the right thing.

Some will say Elon Musk made a strategic decision to do the same for residents of Detroit area towns in order to get 'good will'. Meh, whatever... Cynics and skeptics always search silver linings for storm clouds. Where theur any water purifiers provided by Ford, Chrysler, or General Motors to residents of the affected areas? They should certainly consider following suit, or contributing to the campaigns for others seeking office that actually believe people have the right to clean water.

Never mind the 'optics' of following in Tesla's footsteps -- just do the right thing. Damn.

ReD eXiLe ms us | 31 October 2018

Yesterday, and the day before, Tesla didn’t file for bankruptcy and did NOT go out of business.

Also, Elon Musk was not indicted, arrested, arraigned, tried, or convicted of anything criminal at all. Neither was he fired. Oh, and he didn't quit either.

The latest FUDLines...

Tesla: Too Far Too Fast? -- [SINKING ANCHOR]

Tesla without Elon Musk -- [SINKING ANCHOR]

Tesla Stock is All about the Forest, not the Trees -- Investor Place

The mad scramble to spin any notion imaginable into 'bad news' for Tesla continues. It has been 'obvious' to many for years now that Tesla was a scam, and Elon Musk was a fraud. That which is obvious is not always so. Skepticism has its place, and I employ it daily -- toward the traditional automobile manufacturers I have been enthusiastic about beginning 40 years ago, and that I have been increasingly dissapointed by over the past thirty years.

Funny isn't it how the very same critics that said, "You can't just throw money at a problem!" when they were offering a contrarian argument against Tesla, assured us for years in the next breath that the enormous cash reserves of tradional automobile manufacturers would allow them to 'catch up' to Tesla and surpass them 'in no time' while continuing to rake in profits from ICE sales. Really?

They argued for years that the biggest advantage they had was a bunch of steadily rolling in dough from ICE sales. The whole time they attempted to convince us that Americans in particular would NEVER give up the convenience of gasoline for electric drive.

They accused Tesla Enthusiasts of being clueless, brainwashed cultists with no grasp on reality. And for all the different ways they claimed Tesla's accomplishments didn't matter, were not important, would all be for naught... Because traditional automobile manufacturers could do the same thing 'any time they wanted to'... No one else appears to want to do the same thing as Tesla at all. And Tesla now outsells entire well established brands with a single model.

So, anyone that was hoping Tesla would 'go out of business ... any day now' so the firm could be sold off piece-by-piece or bought lock, stock, & barrel, taken over for pennies on the billion during bankruptcy proceedings... is not feeling too well right about now.

It's gonna be nice to see the Sales results for October 2018.

ReD eXiLe ms us | 2 November 2018

Yesterday, and the day before, Tesla didn’t file for bankruptcy and did NOT go out of business.

Also, Elon Musk was not indicted, arrested, arraigned, tried, or convicted of anything criminal at all. Neither was he fired. Oh, and he didn't quit either.

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." -- Theodore Roosevelt

TSLA as of 12:21 pm CDT, 11-02-2018
Open ________ 343.74
High _________ 349.20
Low _________ 340.91
Mkt cap _______ 58.62B
Prev close ____ 344.28
52-wk high ___ 387.46
52-wk low ____ 244.59

ReD eXiLe ms us | 6 November 2018

Yesterday, and the day before, Tesla didn’t file for bankruptcy and did NOT go out of business.

Also, Elon Musk was not indicted, arrested, arraigned, tried, or convicted of anything criminal at all. Neither was he fired. Oh, and he didn't quit either. He did give up his 'titles' to become the 'Nothing of Tesla', but noted he must keep the position of President in order to satisfy the requirements of the SEC.

I voted today. I have to be optimistic. Despite the continual efforts of stupid people to turn me toward angst and pessimism. There is a smart way forward.

Thus, I remain your Friendly Neighborhood Over-the-Top Optimistic Tesla Certified Apologist Fanboy.

ReD eXiLe ms us | 10 November 2018

Yesterday, and the day before, Tesla didn’t file for bankruptcy and did NOT go out of business.

Also, Elon Musk was not indicted, arrested, arraigned, tried, or convicted of anything criminal at all. Neither was he fired. Oh, and he didn't quit either.

A few days ago it seems that Tesla reset their forum software. As a result, numerous older threads 'disappeared' for a while. I had seen that happen a couple of times before and as I had expected Tesla restored the older threads after whatever backend maintenance they were doing was completed. So, rather than starting a new thread on this subject, I am continuing with the original.

I know that some may be disappointed about this development. Particularly Trolls that attempt to change their stripes so that newcomers are unaware of their prior behavior. The restoration of older threads stands as evidence of their attempts at NaySaying, NEVERSaying, and Trolldom in perpetuity. Yay? ;-)

2018-11-09, TSLA
Close ___ 350.51
Open ___ 349.00
High ___ 354.00
Low ___ 345.23
Mkt cap ____ 60.19B
P/E ratio ___ -
Div yield ___ -
Prev close ___ 351.40
52-wk high ___ 387.46
52-wk low ___ 244.59

Advice from a FUDster...
mos6507 | December 18, 2017
"The growing number of pundits circling a D-day spot somewhere around mid-year should not be ignored."
https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/stritctly-hypothetical-question-wh...

TSLA 2017-12-18
Close ___ 338.87

Xerogas | 10 November 2018

@ReD eXiLe ms us: apparently Tesla did announce they have been subpoenaed; was hoping to hear your thoughts on that.

Carl Thompson | 10 November 2018

@Xerogas:
"... was hoping to hear your thoughts on that."

Why? He's just an annoying troll that doesn't even own a Tesla.

ReD eXiLe ms us | 10 November 2018

Xerogas: Carl Thompson is an annoying, lying, Troll who doesn't own a Tesla and never will. ;-)

Subpeonaes are cool because they allow for the acquisition of evidence that proves accusers 100% incorrect -- that is a fundamental function of investigation too. That means that law enforcement agencies are engaged in Due Process activities that observe the Rule of Law, instead of a witch hunt. Probably a waste of time, and certainly an attempt to 'save face' after what some considered to be a 'slap on the hand' as a result of the settlement of the SEC suit. Still no indictments, arrests, arraignments, trials, or convictions of Tesla officials though. Much to the chagrin of Trolls, $#0r+s, and FUDsters who love to intimate that Tesla is 'up to something', but can't present any evidence.

ReD eXiLe ms us | 12 November 2018

Yesterday, and the day before, Tesla didn’t file for bankruptcy and did NOT go out of business.

Also, Elon Musk was not indicted, arrested, arraigned, tried, or convicted of anything criminal at all. Neither was he fired. Oh, and he didn't quit either.

To date no direct competitor has matched or surpassed the 2012 Tesla Model S. Despite numerous assurances by a variety of Trolls that Teswa Kiwwas were coming any day now because anyone could replicate Tesla's success anytime they wanted because there was nothing special about Tesla at all and all they had done was use a big battery and anyone could do that its just common sense.

Then there were the Trolls that were all fired certain that Tesla would be laid to waste due to the blatant absence of features that are standard issue in any car on the market and the cheap construction of their cars disguised and excused by fanboys as minimalist design when the truth was that Tesla just wanted to cut costs and couldn't afford to build cars with a proper luxury interior so their cars were overpriced and thus, not worth it. Strange that they never responded to anyone who pointed out that much more luxurious cars both less and more expensive than Model S seemed to all have a lowering ceiling of maximum unit sales year after year as they were outsold by Model S consecutively, cumulatively, and in some cases collectively. Thereby ruining the theory that Tesla would sell 'more cars' by having more traditional interiors. Because year after year, the Model S has sold more cars than any direct competitor among large flagship vehicles.

Oh, but wait... That's supposedly not a victory for Tesla nor a failure for long established ICE based vehicles from traditional automobile manufacturers... Because they must maintain their 'exclusivity' by selling in smaller (and profitable) quantities, not by flooding the market with their wares. Well, a few years ago the BMW 3-Series was regularly selling over 120,000 units per annum in the U.S. and over 350,000 units worldwide each year. No one seemed interested in protecting its brand exclusivity then...

The other excuse that Trolls pull from their skeptical sphincters is that Sedans of all types have become less popular over the years. But they cannot explain how it is that as 3-Series Sedan sales have decreased, Toyota Corolla Sedan sales have increased worldwide. From about 900,000 units per year to over 1,300,000 units per year for Toyota. And the Tesla Model 3 actually outsold the Totota Corolla on U.S. shores during September 2018 -- when it also outsold scores of a wide variety of Crossovers and SUVs.

Essentially, Trolls simply refuse to admit that outselling all direct competitors (many of them combined) is a sign of success for Tesla. Their narrative is that Tesla is doomed to failure, and they won't abandon that notion. They have brought up numerous issues over the years, saying they were important points of criticism, and valid cause for concern relative to Tesla's business. One by one each concern has been addressed, yet they stick to the same narrative, and never acknowledge when evidence exists to prove them wrong. Even as they decry being ignored by fanboys for simply attempting to discuss issues in depth, they refuse to actually discuss the relevant details to their own queries. Instead they use leading rhetorical questions to make it seem there are no answers or that Tesla is somehow hiding the truth about something.

And, no matter what, they continue to move the goalposts. I created this thread to expose FUD and directly discuss it in depth. Some want to use this forum as a back-and-forth messaging system full of slogans and comebacks. Nope. In my time online I've always treated forums and bulletin boards before them as a means to post articles. I will continue to do that, to the eternal dismay of Trolls who have nothing of worth to say in response. So there. ;-)

ReD eXiLe ms us | 13 November 2018

Yesterday, and the day before, Tesla didn’t file for bankruptcy and did NOT go out of business.

Also, Elon Musk was not indicted, arrested, arraigned, tried, or convicted of anything criminal at all. Neither was he fired. Oh, and he didn't quit either.

And... Still no explanation from Trolls as to why it is that Tesla isn't dead yet or why the stock price for TSLA still manages to be so many multiples of GM, F, or FCA. Likewise, Trolls can't seem to find evidence to support their continual accusations of fraud by Tesla.

ReD eXiLe ms us | 18 November 2018

Yesterday, and the day before, Tesla didn’t file for bankruptcy and did NOT go out of business.

Also, Elon Musk was not indicted, arrested, arraigned, tried, or convicted of anything criminal at all. Neither was he fired. Oh, and he didn't quit either.

Just a few thoughts...

"My God, it's full of stars!"'

and...

"All these worlds are yours, except Europa. Attempt no landing there."

and...

"We are sorry for the inconvenience"

and...

"What do you get when you multiply six by nine"

2018-11-16, TSLA
Open ______ 345.19
High _______ 355.70
Low ________ 345.12
Mkt cap _____ 60.85B
P/E ratio _____ -
Div yield ______ -
Prev close ___ 348.44
52-wk high ___ 387.46
52-wk low ____ 244.59

ReD eXiLe ms us | 19 November 2018

Yesterday, and the day before, Tesla didn’t file for bankruptcy and did NOT go out of business.

Also, Elon Musk was not indicted, arrested, arraigned, tried, or convicted of anything criminal at all. Neither was he fired. Oh, and he didn't quit either.

In other news, however...

NISSAN CHAIRMAN CARLOS GHOSN TO BE REMOVED FOR “SERIOUS MISCONDUCT”
Ghosn and another executive arrested on Monday
https://www.motortrend.com/news/nissan-chairman-carlos-ghosn-removed-ser...

I did not expect to wake to that news at all.

Elsewise...

Questions to ask a potential mate...

1) Who are you?
2) What do you want?
3) Who do you trust? And,
4) Whom do you serve?
5) Where are you going?
6) Why are you here?
7) Do you have anything to live for?

If they answer all these questions to your satisfaction, they are probably worth spending some more time with.

ReD eXiLe ms us | 21 November 2018

Yet another FUD Manifesto has appeared on this forum. Here is my reply...

--------

Bighorn is always right.

Did I mention Carlito Tomas is a Liar and a Troll who is typically always WRONG? His caveat is the phrase, "...in the event of an accident where power is lost." So he is arguing that in an accident so severe that airbags are deployed power will somehow miraculously instantaneously entirely unavoidably be lost throughout the entire TESLA vehicle.

OK. Stop by YouTube and check out video of Crash Tests for Tesla vehicles. You'll see that doesn't happen. What does happen is that the instant the airbags deploy the hazard lights come on and continue flashing even after a crashed car comes to rest. You know how that happens, boys and girls? Obviously because accidents do not cause instantaneous loss of power in a Tesla. Those hazard lights are powered by the same source as the radio, media center, and other accessories in the car, such as window lifts and door locks -- the goddamned 12v battery. Thus, there is no fraggin' 'loss of power' from such an event. So, the proposed 'situation' is a complete fabrication and falsehood that has already been considered in full by Tesla. Damn.

Oh, and there are plenty of accidents where mechanical door mechanisms on cars are permanently rendered unusable and non-functional. That is a big part of the reason why emergency equipment such as The Jaws of Life were invented to begin with. It is also why YouTube also features instructional videos for first responders who need to rescue people from wrecked electric vehicles such as Tesla cars after an accident. Because one cannot assume there has been a complete 'loss of power' at all. So precise cut points are called out to eliminate the potential for high voltage shock. FYI...? 12V power is NOT 'high voltage', at least not for humans.

Carlito Tomas and all other resident Trolls are welcome to present evidence of their claims, so that it may be discussed fully and in depth by all. Given their inherent reluctance to do so (because they CAN'T)... I feel moved to point out once again that their attempts to cast the Model 3 and every other Tesla vehicle as somehow 'unsafe' as a result of Tesla's design decisions without said evidence comes down to FUD.

· FEAR -- That the rear seat of the Model 3 is a deathtrap because there are only electric door releases.
· UNCERTAINTY -- That children will be able to extricate themselves in the event of an accident (never mind that pretty much EVERY GODDAMNED vehicle manufactured for the past two or three decades for use in the U.S. includes by default specifically labeled 'child safety locks' at the rear doors designed to keep children LOCKED IN THE CAR in a manner that prevents bad ass kids who refuse to follow verbal instruction from opening rear doors while the car is in motion) so that rear car doors CAN ONLY BE OPENED FROM THE OUTSIDE.
· DOUBT -- That Tesla's design team is as capable or dedicated to safety as 'advertised' and that maybe, just maybe, there is a potential situation they have overlooked as a matter of ambition and hubris.

Yeah. Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt raised yet again by Carlito Tomas in his constant effort to support the positions of dumbass Trolls. [FLOG] that guy. THIS IS WHO HE IS AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN.

Not so safe to have no abilit to exit from rear doors.
Submitted by reallynolie on November 20, 2018
https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/not-so-safe-have-no-abilit-exit-re...

--------

This was a reply on the first thread ever posted by 'reallynolie', who called himself 'Hal'. I do not expect to see him here again. As usual, Carl Thompson ran to his rescue, as he does for all irrational Trolls. Providing a supportive shoulder to cry on.

ReD eXiLe ms us | 23 November 2018

Yesterday, and the day before, Tesla didn’t file for bankruptcy and did NOT go out of business.

Also, Elon Musk was not indicted, arrested, arraigned, tried, or convicted of anything criminal at all. Neither was he fired. Oh, and he didn't quit either.

So, Alex of 'E for Electric' posted a video entitled, 'When You Are NOT Elon Musk: Carlos Ghosn Gets Fired' (https://youtu.be/vjRTL4mJLNs). He basically compared & contrasted the recent arrest of Carlos Ghosn with Elon Musk's fine by the SEC, concluding that Elon somehow got 'preferential treatment'.

Here is my response to his video...

Elon Musk did not commit any felonies. Breaking the 'rules' of a stock index is not punishable by lawful arrest and it is unclear if he actually broke their rules at all anyway. The stock market chose on their own to HALT TRADING of TSLA, the resumed it before the bell sounded for the day. The only ones complaining of being 'robbed' were the $#0r+§ that were betting on TSLA going down that day instead of UP. Just as they have done for nearly five years straight and every day since TSLA passed $35 per share for good. Fact of the matter is that no one among actual investors was actually harmed by Elon Musk's actions that day at all. Nobody. That's why he was not arrested. That's why the stock went up. And that's why TSLA has gained around 80% of its losses since.

Tesla had stated publicly at least three years earlier that their CEO's twitter account was an official means of disseminating information about the company. No one in the entire Western Hemisphere got an early warning or advantage of any sort as a result of his tweet. News organizations the world over were reporting on its content, for good or ill, within twenty minutes of the post.

The SEC responded to complaints lodged by $#0r+§ who were pissed about the notion they would be permanently be locked out of [FOULING ABOUT] with Tesla forever if the company went private. Is it possible this was all a ploy by Tesla/Elon to get Institutional Investors in line and back all his future plays? Sure. That's a possible strategy. But it isn't illegal and there is no proof of that at all. We only know that Institutional Investors asked (begged?) Elon not to take Tesla private, and that after consulting with them, he stopped privacy proceedings, saying he preferred that everyone that was a current investor benefit from Tesla's future success. That he didn't want to leave anyone behind. That said after learning that charters for some of those entities would not allow them to hold shares in private firms, and that the vast majority of so-called Retail Investors would not be able to convert their shares to private stock (and didn't want to anyway) all plans for going private went away.

FUDsters, ANALysts, Trolls, and 'Expert Pundits' always claim to doubt anything and everything that Elon says out of healthy concern for investors and customers, to provide a skeptical contrarian viewpoint on the facts surrounding Tesla. Yet none of them are restricted from saying anything they like day or night regardless of opinion, content, or evidence presented.

Carlos Ghosn has reportedly been breaking the law for YEARS. $#0r+§, Trolls, NaySayers, and ANALysts have publicly claimed Elon Musk was a criminal, a con artist, a liar, a shyster, a huckster, a snake oil salesman, a fraud and more for years as well. Where is their evidence? What specific law have they claimed he has broken? The CEO of Nissan researched, found, and presented his evidence of Carlos Ghosn's crimes to the other members of the Nissan board and the Police in Japan. Both parties were satisfied and accepted that evidence, then acted upon it.

Without such evidence before you, how can a self-professed 'unbiased' journalist such as yourself possibly claim that Carlos Ghosn and Elon Musk are in 'similar' circumstances, or that Elon is getting 'preferential treatment'? Because you know what? If Elon Musk is truly doing illegal things and the Tesla Board members are aware of it, then they are complicit in those activities and would go to jail as well.

Either present the evidence of Elon Musk's actual criminal activities along with those of his co-conspirators on the Tesla board, or admit there is no 'similarity' here at all.

Only a biased journalist would refuse.

ReD eXiLe ms us | 23 November 2018

CST2: Wow! I thought you had blocked my posts! Welcome. Glad to see you here, and happy you are enjoying your Model 3, despite pre-Delivery issues.

I saw that FUDline, but I purposely avoid clicking links to [SINKING ANCHOR] articles when warned ahead of time because they are so often FUD-filled when it comes to Tesla. A 39 MPG ICE /Hybrid anything has no hope of getting close to the efficiency of any Tesla product. And I think it would be easy to prove the article wrong on a TCO basis if I tried. It is woefully obvious without even knowing its details that the article is completely wrong. It's hard for 54 MPG ICE/Hybrid vehicles to come close, even to Model S in affordability or emissions, without being plug-ins.

ReD eXiLe ms us | 23 November 2018

Open __________ 341.75
High ___________ 349.80
Low ___________ 333.55
Mkt cap _________ 59.68B
P/E ratio _________ -
Div yield _________ -
Prev close ______ 353.47
52-wk high _____ 387.46
52-wk low ______244.59
2018-11-21close 325.83

ReD eXiLe ms us | 25 November 2018

Yesterday, and the day before, Tesla didn’t file for bankruptcy and did NOT go out of business.

Also, Elon Musk was not indicted, arrested, arraigned, tried, or convicted of anything criminal at all. Neither was he fired. Oh, and he didn't quit either.

The latest FUDLines...

'Tesla Delays are Piling Up' -- [SINKING ANCHOR]

'The Good Ship Tesla Is Sailing into The Perfect Storm' -- [SINKING ANCHOR]

'The End Is Nigh!' ... 'When Will The End Come?' ... always the same thing from those guys. I think they'll never learn.

ReD eXiLe ms us | 25 November 2018

JAD: Have you seen this?

MPP Competes In Global Time Attack With Performance Model 3, Sets Fastest Time, Gets DQ’d For Being Electric!
https://www.mountainpassperformance.com/gtasuperlap/

VIDEO
https://youtu.be/c6Gm_Xv3f3Y

THE RULES
"2. Only unleaded gasoline or Diesel may be used as fuel. No Ethanol, E-85, leaded, methanol or exotic fuels allowed as the primary fuel. Water/Methanol injection is allowed in a maximum of 50% methanol mix.

...

"7. Hybrid drive is allowed only in full OEM form with no modifications to the drive, control or battery systems."

I had some... choice words that I left in the comments on YouTube. What say ye?

Fear is the mind killer. You can't fight the future.

coselectric | 25 November 2018

I don't have the attention span to read this whole thread

(squirrel!)

Sorry, back now... But I gather from skimming this thread that what you're trying to break to me is that my Model 3 is actually just a figment of my imagination made by an imaginary company. That. Really. Sucks. Because I REALLY liked that little dream of mine. (Although I discovered I have a really good imagination, so there's that).

Crap. This is like the sudden-loss-of-cabin-pressure moment in Fight Club when you realize that you're not even a real person, just the alternate personality of, maybe, Anton Wahlman or something. Gosh I hate myself.

Oh well, I'm going for an imaginary ride in my imaginary Model 3 to soothe myself. I wish I never read this thread.

ReD eXiLe ms us | 25 November 2018

coselectric: Actually? This thread stands as a testament to just how wrong Tesla NaySayers like Anton Wahlman, Edward Niedermeier, Corey Johnson, Jim Cramer, and various Trolls and FUDsters that have frequented this forum for years always were. They claimed to be providing a 'service', an alernative, contrarian perspective on the 'REAL FACTS' surrounding Tesla. They said that the 'HYPE' around Tesla distracted from the realities of the problems their business model and business decisions caused. They were all certain Tesla would have gone out of business long ago if not for the preferential treatment of Elon Musk, who they swear is a criminal that should be in jail or in an asylum. They consider him to be a cult leader with the benefit of blind followers due to his cult of personality and stuff. Y'know, all the usual bull$#!+.

ReD eXiLe ms us | 30 November 2018

Yesterday, and the day before, Tesla didn’t file for bankruptcy and did NOT go out of business.

Also, Elon Musk was not indicted, arrested, arraigned, tried, or convicted of anything criminal at all. Neither was he fired. Oh, and he didn't quit either.

If, after all this time, you are still having trouble identifying FUD regarding Tesla, I can help. FUDsters have a strong tendency to misappropriate the word 'IF'. They try to use it exclusively as an agent of doubt.

So, the pivotal phrases of their arguments when criticizing Tesla's goals follow a familiar pattern. They always want the audience to ponder the query "WHAT IF TESLA DOES NOT...?"

Me? I want you to think of the word 'IF' with a sense of HOPE. I want you to consider the opposite query. Think, "WHAT IF TESLA DOES...?" instead.

Positive thought and optimism at the forefront, rather than negativity and pessimism. Choose your path.

TSLA, 2018-11-30
Close _______ 350.48
Open _______ 341.83
High ________ 351.60
Low _________ 338.26
Mkt cap ______ 60.19B
P/E ratio _______ -
Div yield ________ -
Prev close ___ 341.17
52-wk high __ 387.46
52-wk low ___ 244.59

ReD eXiLe ms us | 1 December 2018

coselectric: Try this thread instead. It shows that optimism, hope, and imagination turn out for the best after all...

An Open Letter to Tesla Naysayers
Submitted by Red Sage ca us on September 25, 2016
https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/open-letter-tesla-naysayers

Mike83 | 1 December 2018

Excellent thread ReD. Thanks for shining light on the FUD makers

ReD eXiLe ms us | 3 December 2018

Mike83: Thanks. I started this thread as a challenge to Tesla NaySayers, to get them on the record with their precise predictions, prophecies, and prognostications of Tesla's imminent demise, so often claimed to be happening 'any day now' over the years. So far, they have chosen to largely ignore this thread. For some reason, despite their incessant cries for 'equal time' and 'full discussion' they have been unwilling to post as I had expected. I may not post on a regular basis. I do intend to keep this up on at least a weekly basis, through perhaps June/July 2019. I expect things will look very good for Tesla in the U.S. and abroad by then.

Mike83 | 3 December 2018

ReD For years now I have benefited from the low stock prices and after owning Teslas for 5 years I realized back then that the media was not telling the truth and tended to focus on smearing Tesla in every possible way. It really turned me off to many media sources and find some good journalism instead of biased(promoted by fossil fuel interests)advertised sources.
It now seems that there are too many people who see through the deceptions. It is a good feeling to see truth win which always happens as liars lose track of their lies; it is hard work for them. The Freedom Tesla provides is life changing as more and more people discover.

ReD eXiLe ms us | 3 December 2018

Mike83: When people come here and post reams about how poorly they have been treated by Tesla, as if that is the norm, I do my best to ignore them. I have found that most of the 'angriest' of them are those that post incoherent, inconsistent, and incomplete data that requires query for rather obvious information that is rather obviously left out on purpose. Sincere posts are much more complete with the information they provide.

andy.connor.e | 3 December 2018

Some people are upset with getting exactly what they wanted. Sometimes have to be wise enough not to take reviews too seriously.

ReD eXiLe ms us | 5 December 2018

Yesterday, and the day before, Tesla didn’t file for bankruptcy and did NOT go out of business.

Also, Elon Musk was not indicted, arrested, arraigned, tried, or convicted of anything criminal at all. Neither was he fired. Oh, and he didn't quit either.

Nikki Gordon Bloomfield published a video that I pretty much agree with because it explores a concept that I have expoused for nearly five years. Traditional automobile manufacturers will not have built a true 'Tesla Killer' until such time that they design a fully electric car meant to or capable of 'killing' their own best efforts at ICE. She was speaking of the AUDI e-Tron GT that is due to arrive in 2020, built on the same platform as the Porsche Taycan, which currently only exist as show cars. Assuming the press releases can be believed, those cars are respectively destined to become 'killers' of their stablemates, A7 Sportback and Panamera. Good. Yet I find it interesting that neither ANALysts nor Journalists ask certain rather obvious questions about either, and that the Volkswagen subsidiaries offer no information to answer the implied, though unstated, queries about them. Hmmm...

The AUDI e-Tron GT Isn't a Tesla Killer. It's an ICE Killer | TransportEvolved
https://youtu.be/ATpVC3Hzv0w

In other news... Estimates of November 2018 U.S. Passenger Car Sales are in... The Tesla Model 3 is the Fifth best selling in the U.S. per GoodCarBadCar. Once again only Toyota Camry, Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, and Honda Accord outsold the Tesla Model 3 in the U.S. that month. The Tesla Model 3 has reached 115,067 buyers in the eleven months YTD through the end of November 2018. Only ten passenger cars have reached 100,000 or more U.S. buyers in those eleven months, and the Tesla Model 3 is ninth among them in total cumulative sales this year.

Keep in mind that passenger cars from General Motors divisions are not counted in that total, but may do so. GM chose some months ago to stop publishing monthly sales statistics for vehicles sold in the U.S. They only publish quarterly sales now. But in the past few months Model 3 has outsold Chevrolet CRUZE and MALIBU, the best selling GM Passenger Cars as well.

Of the 118 passenger vehicles charted for U.S. sales by GCBC, the Tesla Model 3 has outsold 113 during the month of November 2018, and 109 for the year so far. As a result, the Model 3 has outsold every passenger car from Hyundai, Kia, Nissan, Mazda, and Volkswagen. Every passenger car from Buick, Chevrolet, Cadillac, Chrysler, Ford, and Lincoln in November 2018.

Yet some still want to claim it is not a mass market vehicle. They don't want to acknowledge or accept that would not be possible unless people felt the Model 3 was not only affordable, but worth the money. Despite the evidence before them they hang onto the theory that Tesla just CAN'T sell cars at mass market quantities at this price.

OK.

The Best Selling Cars In America – November 2018
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2018/12/november-2018-ytd-u-s-passenger-car...

ReD eXiLe ms us | 12 December 2018

Yesterday, and the day before, Tesla didn’t file for bankruptcy and did NOT go out of business.

Also, Elon Musk was not indicted, arrested, arraigned, tried, or convicted of anything criminal at all. Neither was he fired. Oh, and he didn't quit either.

I truly enjoyed a segment on the YouTube channel 'Now You Know' posted yesterday. It covered the suggestion made oft-times that Tesla only exists because they get special treatment and are supported wholly by government subsidies. It is rather impressive. Below the link, you'll find my reply.

"Is Tesla Getting Special Treatment? | In Depth -- Now You Know"
https://youtu.be/8pZT1j2yj9I

I've learned over the years that ANALysts, NaySayers, $#0r+s, NEVERSayers, Pundits, Experts, and Trolls absolutely HATE it when these facts are brought to light, completely DESTROYING their lying narrative that 'Elon Musk's Companies All Rely Upon Government Assisstance & Subsidies' and stuff.

A position that conveniently ignores the tax benefits, land grants, guaranteed loans, legal protections, and literal subsidies that are given freely to other corporate entities without valid explanation for a variety of industries with no firm plan for timely repayment or local investment and without any form of assigned responsibility or confirmed liability with eternal unchallenged extensions stretching into eternity.

Hypocrisy reigns among those who swill HaterAde while accusing Tesla Enthusiasts of 'Drinking the Kool-Aid'.

ReD eXiLe ms us | 12 December 2018

Oh, and yesterday I learned from my Nephew Chance that my baby Brother Chandler had become a Grandfather! Chance's Daughter Trinity Latrice was born on December 10, 2018. That's 110 years after my own Grandfather Will, to the day! So this officially makes me 'Uncle Grandpa Ron' for the first time too! Yay!

ReD eXiLe ms us | 15 December 2018

Yesterday, and the day before, Tesla didn’t file for bankruptcy and did NOT go out of business.

Also, Elon Musk was not indicted, arrested, arraigned, tried, or convicted of anything criminal at all. Neither was he fired. Oh, and he didn't quit either.

Meanwhile...

TSLA, 2018-12-14
Open _________ 375.00
High __________ 377.87
Low __________ 364.33
Mkt cap ________ 62.80B
P/E ratio _________ -
Div yield _________ -
Prev close _____ 376.79
52-wk high ____ 387.46
52-wk low _____ 244.59

That day, GM, F, and FCA all closed below $36 USD per share. None of them exceeded $50.0B in market cap.

49.54B ___ General Motors Company (GM) [$35.10]
33.29B ___ Ford Motor Company (F) [$8.52]
24.52B ___ Fiat Chrysler Automobiles NV (FCAU) [$15.47]

I could editorialize further, bur I think the numbers speak for themselves.

ReD eXiLe ms us | 21 December 2018

PART 1

Yesterday, and the day before, Tesla didn’t file for bankruptcy and did NOT go out of business.

Also, Elon Musk was not indicted, arrested, arraigned, tried, or convicted of anything criminal at all. Neither was he fired. Oh, and he didn't quit either.

TSLA, 2019-12-21
315.83 ___ Close, Up 4.78% in the past 3 months

F, 2019-12-21
__8.26 ___ Close, Down 12.03% in the past three months.

ReD eXiLe ms us | 21 December 2018

PART 2

Ford has joined General Motors and Fiat-Chrysler in crying, "¡No mas!" regarding passenger car sales in the U.S. Honestly, it is very surprising to me that this happened so soon. I do not think this is a coincidence, that they all gave up on the idea of a mass narket fuel efficient Midsize Sedan at the same time (well, within two years of each other, anyway). Just as the Tesla Model 3 arrived. Others will say it is because Crossovers and SUVs are more popular, more profitable. I find the timing interesting, because after three or four decades of constantly battling Toyota, Honda, and Nissan (Datsun) for market share, and with others from Mazda to Subaru and Volvo to Volkswagen making their way to market, it was the Model 3 that seemingly chased them out of the market for hood, with no serious attempt to either compete with a long range fully electric vehicle or to defend their 'turf' as ICE manufacturers. Instead? They just quit.

Pages