With Tesla lowering the cost of batteries, this makes sense.
They need to talk less, and do more.
My thoughts exactly- then do it. (Insert Ben Stiller GIF here).
Every Tesla-killer wannabe is promising to have cars that are cheaper/better/have more range than a Tesla Model car - and all are invariably going to be available 3 or more years from now. GM is simply one of the worst offenders. Seems 2022 is the new 2020.
I am sure GM can release a gimped to the eyeballs EV, thats just as crappy inside and out as most of their ICE mobiles that they struggle to sell now are.
By the time they do get it out though, the market will have moved on and people will for the most part expect a better car when its electric, for the money, not just a "look! its the same as your old gas car" - which is more or less what GM is aiming (low) to achieve.
And in any case what exactly do the likes of GM, BMW, VW, Jaguar, Volvo etc all think Tesla will be delivering to customers then? Merely the same 3 models as today, that are nothing more than "warmed over and rehashed" a dozen times versions of whats on offer today?
If these guys want to stay in the game, they should focus on beating the 7 year old Model S specs today, or the 10+ year old Model S specs in the future.
Instead of wishing/pretending cheap, in voluminous quantities of battery packs for $1 a KwH at the pack level are going to descend from up on high and mysteriously install themselves into their vehicles, and only their vehicles.
Simply put, if Tesla doesn't eat their lunch in the meantime - the Chinese BEV makers will.
Maybe the tariffs on Chinese BEVS might make their presence in the US not so common in 2022 - but they'll control the rest of the world wide market that GM and co normally export to.
So remind me again who GM think they are going to sell these cheap as shit EVs to exactly?
Just more of the same ole same ole.
Tesla has a several year lead on battery and motor technology, plus with the ability to design and manufacture battery packs and motors in-house, they have additional cost advantages - and that probably won't change for a while. So it'll be difficult for other manufacturers to provide comparable range/capacity at a lower price for the battery & motors.
One factor usually ignored in comparisons between Tesla and the other manufacturers is that Tesla is in rapid growth mode while the other manufacturers are stable or declining. This puts Tesla at a disadvantage because they have to invest in new manufacturing, service, support and supercharging - while the other manufacturers generally have excess capacity that can be shifted to EV production and sales.
However, with direct sales - Tesla's cost per sale is significantly lower because they aren't funding dealerships - which will make it more challenging for other manufacturers to compete with Tesla on price/range/performance without losing money on EV development & sales.
Tesla's biggest challenges continue to be mostly internal - can they handle the rapid growth, continue to add/improve vehicles, rollout FSD - and do that with sustainable profitability (since there's a limit of how much new funding they can scrounge).
I wish GM the best. We need more EV options including more affordable ones.
However, I wish a pox on GM if they really don't intend or can't deliver and this is just disingenuous rhetoric.
We know that GM can make a good EV, the EV1, S-10EV, Volt, SparkEV, and Bolt are proof of that. They just need to actually make a desirable one and not crush it.
So "will be able" means "not able to sell" now.
And *only* if an extraordinary number of ducks for some reason, decide to line themselves up for GM to take aim at.
Evidence says that likely its *not* going to happen.
This announcement is just GMs belated loser speech along the lines of "We woulda, shoulda, coulda".
GM is paying Tesla to get regulatory credits . It's hard to believe that they will be able to sell EVs cheaper if they are prioritizing selling gas guzzlers now. I mean, it would be great to have more EVs on the road, but it's annoying when companies claim to support EVs but don't follow through with meaningful actions. The Bolt is a "Tesla Killer" if someone could die from laughing at the sales numbers years later. How about Tesla Tickler?
Redundancy, except as a fail-safe, is a sign of incompetence.
All I've ever heard out of GM (except when they were deliberately killing their customers) is alot of empty promises and this is more of the same, just a different day...wash, rinse and repeat.
Notice that GM never said they could sell EVs at a cheaper price profitably. Anyone can sell a car at a "cheaper" price. Just depends how much you're willing to lose. Still, consider it costs GM $5-10K per ZEV credit to keep shipping massive polluter vehicles. They do get something back for selling a few EVs - the ability to dump the other 99% pollution/gas hogs into the few states that care about the environment and what we breathe.
They will sell it cheaper probably because its shittier.
Good point. They wouldn't want their EVs to be so compelling that they would lose profits from selling gas guzzlers.
You will know they are serious about EV when they introduce it on their flagship brand, Cadillac. otherwise it’s just more lip service
The last 'sort of' EV that they introduced into the Cadillac brand was the overpriced ELR which was basically a Chevy Volt with nicer seats.
But you are correct. Unless GM ships a pure EV as a Cadillac, they are not serious.
The largest and remaining issue continues to be fast charging nationwide. I think whatever GM does will not make a hoot of differance if they don’t have a fast charging option with total nationwide coverage. The car could be the most awesome car available in the world but if you can’t travel with it what’s the point?
Customers will be wowed by the performance, the handling, the creature comforts, then they’ll ask the dreaded question , how far can I go? Salesman will say something like 320 miles, customer responds with “oh, that’s pretty good, what do I do when I need a charge?”
What’s the salesman going to say?
“Oh, use the onboard computer to show you where the nearest charging station is”, customer says “ how long does it need to charge”, salesman says depends on where you stop, could be anywhere from 3-8 hours”
Customer says “ forget you” and walks out.
This applies to all manufacturers. Especially in the U.S., Europe is addressing this very issue much better than the U.S. is.
The car remains a short commuter car. Who the heck wants to spend their hard earned money on a commuter car that you can’t drive long distance. For having a lot of big shots occupying fancy offices in Detroit, they sure are not very good at looking ahead to the future.
Tesla is years ahead of anyone else.
oh, they're looking ahead to the future all right...hoping the electric car thing will pass and they can stop worrying about innovating a new paradigm of sustainable transport. There is a reason legacy mfgs do not want electric cars. Same ol', same ol' makes immediate money, screw the future.
No way I'd ever get a non-Tesla for a gasmobile replacement. It can't be done with 3rd party hodge podge expensive charging network.
With Tesla, just plug in your destination and go. stop and plug in at any of the multiple stalls per Supercharger location. no muss, no fuss. it's a thing of beauty that NO legacy mfg is EVER going to do. period. costs too much.
All the reviews of "long" distance non-Tesla EVs come up short on this EVERY SINGLE TIME.
I have to give some credit to GM. They are at least not totally brain dead.
At least all automakers are being forced into EVs in the China market, often the more profitable for legacy companies. Hopefully they will learn something that can be applied to the domestic market.
I predict some states in the next 5 years will invert incentives. Rather than give money to buy an EV, they will switch to charging a pollution tax or some such on ICE cars. Likely not quite like Norway (100% tax on non-EVs), but a 25% tax doesn't seem out of the question. Perhaps start at 5% and go up an additional 5% per year. Could bring in enough revenue to reduce sales or income taxes too!
I like that idea. Gas tax would be better but that will face too steep a consumer opposition. Extra sales tax on non-EV's in just few major states would make a great impact on auto companies' strategy. That will face less oppositions too. Not that many people will buy a new car in the next few years.
Yes, a pollution tax on new ICEV. Then they don't complain about subsidizing EVs.
Before the Bolt came out - the media portrayed it as a Tesla killer with long range, coming out before the Model 3 and with features lacking in Tesla vehicles like Apple CarPlay and Android Auto.
First quarter, Tesla delivered about 6X more Model 3's than GM delivered Bolts, even though the average price of a Model 3 was higher (and that was quarter that was below expectations for Tesla).
Tesla has raised the bar again with V3 Superchargers and refreshing S/X, including longer range battery packs - making it more difficult for manufacturers to compete on the high end, along with plans to compete in the larger markets with Y and pickups.
Tesla has a technology advantage today - which will be difficult to maintain in the long run, though with unique benefits like the Supercharger network and using mobile service for most maintenance, if/when the other manufacturers catch up, Tesla may be able to defend its market share.
Tesla's biggest threat right now is Tesla - can they survive the transition to higher volume vehicle production, get back to profitability, improve customer support & service with an increasing # of vehicles, and do so while continuing to innovate and introduce new/refreshed models?
“Tesla's biggest threat right now is Tesla - can they survive the transition to higher volume vehicle production, get back to profitability, improve customer support & service with an increasing # of vehicles, and do so while continuing to innovate and introduce new/refreshed models?”
I agree with bp on this. Granted, these are anecdotal but I see a few posts from people getting cars delivered with issues, causing delays or unpleasant experiences. Keeping in mind that people having problems are more likely to post their experiences than those who didn’t, this seems to be an area for improvement. Some of those posting are on their 2nd or 3rd Tesla. That may play into expectations as well.
Anyone done research on how various charging networks compare? I may try looking up what’s out there besides the supercharger network for grins. Maybe it’s not as bad for non-Tesla cars as we think?
"Maybe it’s not as bad for non-Tesla cars as we think?"
It is worse.
notice the dearth of "non-Tesla EVs criss-crossing the US" stories? Very few are attempting to replicate Tesla and the Supercharger network. Electrify America? no, not viable and not easy and not fast and not as robust (stalls per location). 3rd-party charging solutions are not solutions at all. It's a crapshoot for anything but a short trip.
My MAIN reason for selling my Leaf to stretch to a Model 3 was the Supercharger network. it just works, is seamless, easy and getting more robust and faster as we speak!
Not even a compare. Tesla is far ahead in this area, which is key to get gassers off the roads. Not just the perception that one can't drive an EV just like a gas car, but actually demonstrating and improving the experience. That is what Tesla's network does. I need to re-word that, but oh well.
Tesla's software/navigation is get in and go and the car will do the thinking. others are not even close.
@s.grot & @reed_lewis
Or their Corvette brand, either or, but all it seems they're interested in is the continued pursuit of marketing ICE's, failing to realize that they're promoting a now long obsolete technology.
But you keep on beating that dead horse, GM, and soon enough you, too, will be dead.
>>> "Tesla has a technology advantage today - which will be difficult to maintain in the long run...."
As it is now they are years (at least 15 to 20) ahead of each and every other EV manufacturer out there and are constantly consistently making improvements to their core systems via over-the-air upgrades, effectively further enhancing and optimizing their system's functionality operations with ever more so advanced technological insights.
Tesla is the thoroughbred that broke away right out of the gate and hasn't looked back since!
They're LAPPING the competition MANY times over because, while others are still only working on DEVELOPING their version of EV technology, Tesla is refining and tweaking what they've designed years ago, insuring its continued supremacy, afterall, why do you think that they're catching so much flack (all of the so-called "FUD") from everyone else who're still only twiddling their thumbs?!
An unfortunate truth as we've still got these outmoded auto manufacturers and "stealerships" out there desperately striving to cling to their obsolete version of transportation and marketing by doing all that they can to stifle the smooth transition to full EV powered transportation for all of our commuter and shipping needs, sad but true, when it would be all so easy for them to simply do away with the ICE and swap to electric motors.
I mean, there are literally hundreds of independent garages, shade tree mechanics and weekend wrenchers out there converting their formerly internal combustion engined cars to BEV in their shops, garages, and even backyards in some cases, so surely an over 100 year industry can figure out how to do it with all of the resources they've accumulated over the years...if only they had the desire to.
For want of a nail....
GM also has the mentality that they will not sell/supply the fuel for their EVs . That is why the Bolt has no long distance charging network . Another paradigm shift in thinking they can’t achieve.
What Elon has achieved in 10 years is truly amazing!!
VW’s Electrify America $2 Billion plan calls for 230 DC fast charging sites Nationwide by 2022. Tesla already has more than 2000 sites nationwide
657 USA site
Has does Electrify America charge compare with Tesla’s newest Supercharger (speed wise),
And yes I know that the car being charged needs to have the ability to accept what the charger offers.
That being said , we know that all M3’s have that capability, what about new domestic EV’s? Leaf , Bolt....etc.....do they have the ability to take advantage of higher charge rates?
Not to mention that Elon said that he needs more batteries, makes me scratch my head that if Elon needs more (and he’s producing a whole bunch), where the heck are all these other manufactures going to get their batteries if they plan on each selling 400,000 vehicles a year? And to top it off, they don’t all use the same battery type!
Time will tell.
During the shareholder call, Did anyone catch a hint at issues with obtaining necessary minerals? I believe Elon said “ we might get into the mining business”, I took it to mean either costs are exceeding what Tesla forecasted or supply cannot keep up with demands of Tesla, or a bit of both.
Cunningham's Law was in action with SamO's post. :)
A lot of companies say a lot of things. In the meantime, I’m still driving a Tesla which still looks and drives like brand new after over 100,000 trouble-free miles. I’ve gone everywhere I’ve needed/wanted to go on the Supercharger network. Talk is cheap.
@David - EA has a few 350 kW stalls, and most are 150 kW stalls. The new V3 Supercharger is a 1MW system, supporting four stalls, each 250 kW. I'm not aware of any EV other than Tesla sold in the USA that can take 250 kW or more. Most are far less. From what I can read, the Bolt is limited to 50 kW DC charging. The new Leaf (60 kW battery) is limited to a peak of 100 kW as is the Jaguar iPace. The Audi eTron peaks out at 150 kW.
On the minerals, I think Elon was having a bit of fun. I don't see Tesla getting into the mining business. Plenty of the needed minerals are available - although prices do fluctuate a bit.
blue adept: "As it is now they are years (at least 15 to 20) ahead of each and every other EV manufacturer out there and are constantly consistently making improvements to their core systems via over-the-air upgrades, effectively further enhancing and optimizing their system's functionality operations with ever more so advanced technological insights."
It is critical for Tesla not only to succeed in the short term to introduce new models, achieve profitability and expand their customer base - they must continue to innovate.
Because other manufacturers will likely take less time to develop competitive EVs - learning from what Tesla has already done.
That's what happened with other technology innovations - as those technologies went from "breakthrough" to "mainstream".
Tesla is clearly in the strongest position - if they don't squander that lead...
i don't think squander anything is even in elon's vocab. just saying.
Just look at the catch-up that other EV mfgs are attempting as the lead race horse keeps pulling away (i do like that analogy, kudos to blue adept for that one!)
A LOT of words and press releases. okay non-Tesla companies are leading in something.
And the thing is, well, with a few lower order type EVs and with the comparison to your neighbor's Tesla...that gap widens.
"why would i buy this EV that has no way to drive long distances easily and replace my good 'ol gasmobile when Tesla has everything figured and it works and it's here today, getting better"?
I know a cheap starting price isn't everything. The Tesla stretch ($$$) is real.
We have cars so we can drive them where ever we want to. Gas cars do that VERY easily. To convince buyers that an EV is also easy is the key.
end ramble. not the most coherent set of thoughts.
But the message is clear when I talk with other non-Tesla EV drivers..."you have made 3,000 mile trips in your electric car...like a gas car can? wow!"
and i can see and hear the disappointment that their non-Tesla EV is not capable.
no pollution, quiet, relaxing (even, especially in traffic), cheaper than my BMW M3
And performance they cannot understand or imagine until they experience it
End counter ramble
It's GM's choice of whether or not they manufacture their own batteries or outsource them to a third party supplier and much the same is the case when it comes to whether or not they install their own charging infrastructure or outsource it as well (which might be the better option for them at this point given the already established charging infrastructure of third party entities such as 'ChargePoint', for example).
Who knows, maybe GM can afford to buy out or at least into existing providers to meet their needs to realize some form of kickback when they finally get their heads out of the petrol clouds and oil pits and actually manage to make the switch (if ever) before failing altogether from pig-headed stubbornness, afterall, I've heard they've invested heavily in developing a so-called "fuel-efficient" V8 engine not that long ago (as opposed to choosing the other path), so maybe they'll die off altogether!
To that end I've heard they've already closed 5 of their plants and ceasing the production of six of its sedan brands, including the Buick LaCrosse, Cadillac CT6 and XTS, the Chevrolet Cruze, the Impala, and their hybrid-electric Volt:
Similarly, I've also heard that they're thinking about bringing back the Hummer (you guys remember that behemoth of an SUV, right? Big as a house and managed only 10 miles a gallon on a good day despite whatever the advertised mileage might've been) as an electric powered vehicle:
But as @DanFoster1 said, "talk is cheap" and while I hear what is being said, I also see what GM has been done and action do speak a helluva lot louder than word!
There'll be no "squandering" had here, that much is for sure!
The transition to the EV commuting routine from that of ICE is actually a very smooth one with a very shallow learning curve with EV's readily assuming the position ICE's once held in people's everyday lives once they've accustomed themselves to them which, when compared to the savings they'll realize in zeroing out frequent fuel expenditures and maintenance fees and noxious exhaust fumes polluting the air and choking them and everyone else and the costs of war and the loss of lives involved just to gain and maintain access to ever depleting petroleum resources (looks like things are stirring up again with Iran), well, it's a no brainer for most people and well worth it on many levels, especially one they learn the truth/reality of the matter.
That's it, though, isn't it? the learning! too few in my immediate work and social groups are VERY happy they don't HAVE to "put up with" an electric car. Change is so slow that things seem to never change...and THAT is a fight. to change what people perceive as "putting up with".
It's maddening that too many out there "fight the future" (x files reference). Better is here and now. yes a bit spendy up front (like solar, my next step...) but soooooo much better in all aspects.
We'll get there, but, damn, it's a glacial ride to get things going the right direction.
I sometimes feel the GMs of the world fall into the above categories (put up with, fight the future, don't want to change).
i think that 1st line should read too MANY are happy with gasoline. sorry. I'm a rambler and...here i go again.
More GM drivel https://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-gm-set-challenge-tesla-223110832.html
"Why GM Is Set to Challenge Tesla in Electric & Autonomous Vehicle Markets"
"Challenge" doesn't mean much.
Like a lamb "challenges" a samurai.
We are talking about software and innovation.
GM has neither.
If GM sells EVs for less than Tesla, they will be doing so at a loss.
Reason 2022 would be the target for cheap EV's is there needs to be better infrastructure to charge the masses of car they produce. So they are giving Electrify America time to build a better network of chargers. To give a simple comparison I did trip planner using Model 3 Versus Chevy Bolt using the A Better Planner web site. The Bolt needed total of 4 stops to go the planned 540 miles from my house to parents house. Estimated trip with charging stop times 12 hours and 30 minutes. That same trip with my model 3 would take 2 stops and only take 9 hours 15 minutes. Over 3 hours of trip time saved. This is assuming you got the Upgrade to allow DC Fast Charging with your Bolt. That and the charging cost was about $12 for the Tesla and $19 for the Bolt, now granted both beat the $26 for a Mazda 3 based on 1 stop to refuel a full tank at $2.4 a gallon of gas. Since we have a hotel we normally stay that offers free destination charging the Electrics would be able to charge for free during trip, but the Mazda would have to spend $26 again for another full tank of gas. So Trip costs for the two EV's would lower than the ICE car.