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FSD purchase unfair when trading in

FSD purchase unfair when trading in

Hi, Something is just not right with the way my favorite company, Tesla, is handling the purchase/ownership of FSD and trade in value. I purchased FSD for $7000 3 months ago. I would now like to trade my car in, but the trade in quote/value does not consider my $7000 FSD. Therefore if I want to trade in for a new Tesla not only am I out the regular depreciation of the vehicle, I am also out the $7000 for the FSD, and then another $7000 for FSD on the new Tesla vehicle. This is truly ludicrous mode for trade ins! Tell me I’m wrong or help me!

If anything, the FSD trade in value should be valued at $7000 less 20% so $5600. At best, it should be transferable to my purchase of a new Tesla vehicle!

Thank you,

Zack

EVRider | 6 April 2020

I can't imagine why you paid $7000 for FSD if you weren't planning to keep the car, but why do you think the FSD option should be valued at $5600? It doesn't matter whether you paid for FSD when you bought the car or this morning, it's worth the same either way. Did you think FSD was transferable when you bought it? If not, why do you think it should be now?

If you're not happy with Tesla's trade in offer, see if you can get more by selling privately or to a place like Car Max.

FISHEV | 6 April 2020

Kelly Blue Book has a market value of "FSD" of $1,750.

If you plug in your car at kbb.com and then add and delete it, you can see the value.

andy.connor.e | 6 April 2020

I am also wondering why you dropped $7000 on a software feature that you planned on trading in 3 months later, all while the software features are not 100% released.

FISHEV | 6 April 2020

It gives you and idea how much value Tesla places on "Full Self Driving"

WW_spb | 6 April 2020

Everything FishEV says is twisted lie

andy.connor.e | 6 April 2020

Tesla should pay you a higher price than the sell value because they value their products so much.

keyszd | 6 April 2020

Their approach still doesn’t sit right. If I buy after market tires, I can take them with me when I trade it in. Why not FSD? How can anyone with FSD ever justify trading their car in for a new one, when you’ll have paid for it twice? How does Tesla justify their valuation of FSD when you trade it in? They offer nothing for it yet it is supposed to be the best thing about owning a Tesla.

Magic 8 Ball | 6 April 2020

Software features are handled differently.
Not going to argue either way on it but it is what it is, they make the rules and I don't think there is much you can do about it.

Uncle Paul | 6 April 2020

Tesla will remove the FSD when they resell the car, so no value added for them.

Uncle Paul | 6 April 2020

Tesla will remove the FSD when they resell the car, so no value added for them.

Uncle Paul | 6 April 2020

Tesla will remove the FSD when they resell the car, so no value added for them.

milesbb | 6 April 2020

FSD does not have a value to Tesla as the can turn it on or off when they own the car. It does have a value on the open market, you are under no obligation to sell to Tesla. This does poke a hole in Elon's claim that FSD makes Tesla's an appreacating asset.

FISHEV | 7 April 2020

Uncle Paul | April 6, 2020 "Tesla will remove the FSD when they resell the car, so no value added for them."

It has a $7k value to Tesla, that's why they turn FSD off in hopes another starry eyed buyer will pay them $7k for a second time for the same car. Quite a scam actually. Probably should get some consumer regulations to address it.

Now if Tesla can figure out how to take AC out of the car and resell it, they'll really be on a role.

keyszd | 7 April 2020

I just had one final thought on this.... I do believe in 5 years time Tesla will realize the need to change this practice and let you port your software upgrades to a new vehicle (hardware) with some reasonable guidelines (computer compatibility). I think of it like an Apple iphone. You can pay to have iCloud storage and purchase apps which are associated with your user profile. If you choose to sell your phone and get a new one, those features come with you. So if I want to buy a feature on my phone that tells me the weather, then I trade in my phone for a new one, that feature comes with it. Similarly with Tesla, if I pay for a feature that stops at red lights (eventually) and changes lanes, I should be able to bring that feature with me if I upgrade my hardware to a new Tesla.

Magic 8 Ball | 7 April 2020

Supply and demand will dictate how it ends up going. I "bought" several extremely expensive CAD programs over the years and never did like that I never did actually "own" them or that if I stopped paying annual, also expensive, next version fees. If you did not update you were not going to be compatible with new versions making working with others that had newer versions difficult if not impossible.

Following that model I guess Tesla could make FSD transferable in a "fixed" state and require a fee to get the OTA updates. Would that model be acceptable to you?

EVRider | 7 April 2020

@keyszd: I don’t know why you think Tesla will “need” to change this practice down the road. And we’re still wondering why you purchased FSD 3 months before trading in your car.

Your comparison to iCloud and iOS apps isn’t really valid. iCloud is a service that isn’t tied to a particular device, and iOS apps that you purchase cone from third parties. Paying for iCloud is more analogous to paying for a Spotify account, which isn’t tied to your car. Paying for iOS apps is more analogous to buying third-party accessories for your car, which you can move to your next car.

TeslaTap.com | 7 April 2020

Tesla does allow transfers, with a simple $7K transfer fee, you can get FSD in your new Tesla!

What Tesla does with cars it gets from trade-ins is not relevant. They could elect to smash the rear window and sell it for a discount. They are free to do anything they want once the car is sold to them. Most trade-ins are sold at wholesale to auction houses, and I doubt Tesla makes much on these cars. If you don't like the tradin value, sell it to someone else. Nothing is forcing you to sell to Tesla.

keyszd | 7 April 2020

@Magic 8 Ball I thought about your proposal. I guess my thought is then when trading in a Tesla with FSD for a new Tesla, the FSD should be transferable and I should have to pay the difference for what FSD costs at that time. I guess that’s what would make me most satisfied!

@EVRider, I love my model 3. The Y came out and I was interested in trading in the 3 for a Y. Might sound ludicrous after only a few months, however, in my state it is not. I received fed/state tax credits last year and state credits this year on a new EV purchase which would make trading in the 3 for a Y a clean swap. However, when you factor in the FSD I go in the hole for the amount of the FSD! Then I started thinking how it really doesn’t seem right.

I love Tesla and am in it for the long term and hope that my suggestion and experience will make Tesla a better company.

Magic 8 Ball | 7 April 2020

@keyszd It is a world were we don't always get what we want. Like I said I am not going to argue this either way and I am known for coming to Tesla's defense when I feel strongly about it but I don't know the logic or reasoning behind a decision like that. I have read about the lack of software transferability and even people having features like that removed on used cars they bought.

I would be most satisfied with your want also but there is nothing we can really do about it.

As to if it would make Tesla a better company I can't argue that either way either. Tesla is a company of innovation and they have certainly created a lot of loyalists with their current mode of operation. It would be nice to know the top level reasoning behind a lot of their decisions but we are the dark.

The double edge sword here is we want Tesla to be successful but if we get on a box and complain about these things we may be turning other people off. No easy answers on this sort of thing.

EVRider | 8 April 2020

@keyszd: You made a poor choice buying FSD 3 months before trading your car, and now you think it’s Tesla responsibility to fix your mistake. Sorry, but it’s your problem, not Tesla’s. You knew FSD wasn’t transferable when you bought it.

andy.connor.e | 8 April 2020

why would anyone assume its transferable? Its $7000, and it does not state anywhere that buying FSD is an account linked thing. I'll say, that being on these forums, i have witnessed some of the most irresponsible uses of large amounts of money.

Magic 8 Ball | 8 April 2020

More scolding with no content of value, not surprised.

FISHEV | 8 April 2020

andy.connor.e | April 8, 2020 why would anyone assume its transferable?

Same reason they'd think red paint and sport wheels are transferable. Owner paid for them.

andy.connor.e | 8 April 2020

comparing wheels and software features is a good comparison!

FISHEV | 8 April 2020

andy.connor.e | April 8, 2020 comparing wheels and software features is a good comparison!"

They are purchased items.

What's next, Tesla turns of Auto HVAC. That's "software". That you can't sell the $7k "Full Self Driving" option with the car does seem illegal...or should be.

andy.connor.e | 8 April 2020

good talk

TeslaTap.com | 8 April 2020

@FISHEV | April 8, 2020
andy.connor.e | April 8, 2020 why would anyone assume its transferable?
Same reason they'd think red paint and sport wheels are transferable. Owner paid for them.

Yes, when trading a car in, I'd love to remove the paint and wheels. I paid for them, why would a new owner expect to get those? /s

andy.connor.e | 8 April 2020

i paid for the seats too. does the new owner require a center console? Because i paid for that.

lessrandom | 8 April 2020

Either the FSD has value or not. If it has value and it was part of the car, then it should be valued as such when traded in. If it isn't part of the car and travels with the owner, then transfer should be an inexpensive option ($100).

The problem here is that if I sell it privately, Tesla has already demonstrated that they may not allow FSD to travel with the car, just like they may not allow supercharging to travel with the car. So what is the car? Does everyone who owns a Tesla need to have a contract with Tesla even though they didn't buy it from Tesla? Is the value of a used Tesla actually $0?

I love my Tesla, and I love Tesla's innovation, but this right here is just plain wrong. It is corporate misbehavior and it will be rectified either by Tesla, by lawsuit, or by government. Up to Tesla to figure out which of those they think is better for them.

TeslaTap.com | 8 April 2020

@lessrandom - Some of what you state is true, but "if I sell it privately, Tesla has already demonstrated that they may not allow FSD to travel with the car" is clearly not true.

The confusion may occur that if Tesla buys a used car, they may remove FSD and sell the car at a reduced price. Nothing wrong with that. It's the same as you removing the passenger seat and selling your car privately at a discount. Tesla does not remove the seat or FSD on a private sale between parties. Yes, there is one poster where the dealer scammed the buyer claiming the car came with FSD when it didn't, as the dealer bought it through an auction house, where it was sold without FSD.

Free Supercharging is an external feature as part of your contract with Tesla, which they allow as a benefit to the original owner of newly purchased cars. They are very clear how this works. I'm not aware of any other ICE or EV maker that provides anything close to this benefit.

Anyway, if you think everything Tesla does is wrong, you're free to buy some other car. Be aware no competitors offer anything close to these features or benefits. And there is no corporate "misbehavior" by Tesla - but you're always free to sue Tesla for these imagined wrongs. I hope you have deep pockets and are willing to lose a lot of time and money, as I don't see any way you could win.

lessrandom | 8 April 2020

I explicitly said that I like a lot about Tesla, so please don't pool me in with the shorts. I am responding to the now common perception that Tesla basically treats all Teslas as extensions of Tesla, and will do what they want to those cars, if Tesla decides that Tesla has been wronged somehow by the car.

Re Supercharging, I'm responding to the removal of supercharging from salvage cars, not the removal of free supercharging. If Tesla can log in to specific cars and modify them, without any contract in place, then it raises the obvious question of what is the relationship between a Tesla owner, their car, and Tesla. If that relationship continues to be very unclear, with Tesla randomly modifying cars, then the value of a used Tesla will be reduced. That might provide a temporary bump to sales as people who would otherwise buy a used Tesla of a couple years aging decide to buy a new one, but it will all but eliminate the used market which will eventually reduce demand for new Teslas as people realize that selling them is harder than they expected.

And this case is fairly obvious. Here on the forum we have an owner being labelled as making a bad choice... for what? Buying an option? So who is the sucker here, the guy who decided to buy a new Tesla with a chic feature? Well, as a fellow who did in fact buy FSD on a Model 3 and was pondering upgrading to a Model Y, let me tell you, I sure feel like a sucker now! Yeah, I'll keep my Model 3. But is making owners feel like suckers really the goal here?

Magic 8 Ball | 8 April 2020

The goal is to keep the company alive so it can provide sustainable "green" personal transportation. There is no goal to make owners feel like suckers, that is absurd. There will always be a select few unhappy about something. Some will feel screwed no matter what but that is balance sheet decision and the market will speak if it is a bad decision.

awolusa | 8 April 2020

"Uncle Paul | April 6, 2020

Tesla will remove the FSD when they resell the car, so no value added for them."

This is not true as I just purchased a preowned 2016 from Tesla last Thursday and it came with it. Unfortunately, they did remove the free supercharging and premium connectivity.

HETZ | 8 April 2020

If I buy a car with GPS, the next owner of that car gets the GPS. The Buick dealer will not remove it when i trade in the car, but it is their car to make that decision. However, I think Tesla would be money ahead rather than sour a current owner, who wants to buy a new vehicle, to offer them some "trade-in value" for the fact they bought FSD once. Perhaps let them buy it for the new car at 1/2 or 3/4 price. Then they can strip it from the trade if they so desire.

lessrandom | 8 April 2020

@Magic 8 Ball: Tesla is no longer in such danger. They have billions in cash and the most enviable market position of almost any industrial producer in modern history. It's fine to expect that Tesla doesn't scr*w customers. $7k might be chump change to Tesla, but it sure isn't chump change to me. I can do a lot with $7k.

So let's settle it by having Tesla lay out exactly what their responsibility is with regards to used cars. Personally I would prefer that Tesla recognize or provide ownership changes (as they do already with the app and deleting keys) and no longer contact that car *at all* until ownership is established with a new owner, who would request app access service from Tesla, and e-sign a contract with Tesla, presumably with some fee or subscription. Almost anyone would be willing to pay Tesla for the privilege of getting firmware updates - and supercharger access, optional performance enhancements, even app access can be monetized for a low subscription cost. Done the right way, this allows Tesla to continue delivering awesome value in the form of low depreciation, and if they do it, they lock guys like me in for LIFE. Why? Because I can tell everyone in my life, EVERYONE, that they should go buy a Tesla today even if it's an old beat up one. I didn't buy Tesla to be elitist, I bought Tesla for the awesome product that's kicking gas to the curb.

Magic 8 Ball | 8 April 2020

@lessrandom Tesla is always in danger, the market conditions change and they have to be lean and mean for a long time. Yes it is fine to expect they don't screw customers but you are attempting to put forth a narrative they do screw customers, a dishonest way of making your case.

Tesla has no "responsibility" when it comes to used cars, that is another dishonest argument. It is still an awesome product and no one says you have to be an elitist to buy one.

How many more straw men can you come up with because I just tore down three of them.

lessrandom | 8 April 2020

Ok.

I simply cannot recommend people buy a product that may change for the worse after they buy it, beyond normal wear and tear. That is the contemporary view, and I see no reason to doubt it. I'm talking about features like FSD, rear seat heaters for M3, acceleration boost, and yes even supercharging in the case of "salvage" cars. Are you saying that Tesla would not, does not, or cannot, do that? That the people saying this is happening are simply wrong, or cons? I think the answer is easy to see. Tesla is removing features from cars, and their way of doing it doesn't synchronize perfectly with the real world transactions that are causing those actions (in the case of FSD removal) and acting overly defensively (in the case of level-3 charging removal.) Their desire to do it can be argued from a variety of perspectives, but what is clearly missing is an actual position from Tesla on what it means to "own" a Tesla and how a savvy Tesla owner can find out what they do actually own. What rights does a Tesla owner have, if Tesla is able to remove features? How would I get mediation on fair terms if Tesla decides to erroneously remove a feature that I did pay for? Is there an ombudsman? If this is already all well defined, then that's great. Let's get that well surfaced so that people thinking about buying a used Tesla can know what they are buying, and that's important to me as a future seller (because I WILL sell my beloved Tesla at some point down the road) so that my market of buyers is robust. That way, I really can take my M3 FSD product and get real world dollars for it in a private transaction ... so that I can then trade it in for a Cybertruck, 2025 Model 3, or whatever.

Magic 8 Ball | 8 April 2020

No one is stopping you from doing what you want and no one here is an official spokesperson for Tesla.

As for myself I have never said anything about about what Tesla will not or will do, what they can or cannot do. What they do actually do and do not do is not a secret, it is in evidence as their current policies.

The ombudsman is the free market, no one is forced to do business with Tesla.

Before you purchase a car if there are certain things that are important to you ask for a written and signed document from someone that can be held accountable in advance addressing the concerns.

Anecdotes and what is written in the press have no real value at all for your concerns. If a manufacturer is not transparent enough for you then, again, you do not have to buy.

johncrab | 9 April 2020

FSD is not like a trailer hitch, fancy wheels or other hardware. It is a service T provides while you own the car. It disappears when the car is traded. They really should at least give you a screaming deal to transfer it to a new car if you are trading with them. But hey need the revenue.

TeslaTap.com | 9 April 2020

@lessrandom - Anyone that buys a salvage vehicle should realize there are major risks to attempt to make it drivable in a car that designated to be parted out or destroyed. Tesla has no way to know how badly damaged or what was done to it to make it move down the road. The battery could be internally damaged, the suspension could be ready to fail, or any of many other problems could surface. You can be sure that if it catches fire or crashes, the news will not be it was a salvaged car, but only that a Tesla was at fault. How a salvage car has anything to do with FSD purchases is unclear to me. I've never heard of FSD being removed from a salvaged car either.

I can understand Supercharger access being removed on a salvage car until it is proved the car is not going to damage Tesla's Superchargers. I know I would not want to be parked charging next to a salvaged car that could catch fire if it has high-voltage wiring damage.

I'd suggest you not buy salvage cars if this constraint is not to your liking. Nothing says you have to buy one.

I've never heard of it being removed from any car, except for the one case where the dealer bought it from the auction without paying for FSD and sold it claiming it did have FSD, which was removed. I feel sorry for the owner, and the dealer that sold it should either pay for FSD or provide a refund.

lbowroom | 9 April 2020

Haven't read every word here, but I didn't see it addressed.

OP, how did you determine that Tesla is shorting you on your FSD purchase? Did you somehow get a trade in quote from Tesla with and without it? How? Are you simply unhappy with the trade in value they offered and attributing it to that?

For the fish, KBB's appraisal with and without says nothing about how Tesla values it, only about how KBB values it.

FISHEV | 9 April 2020

lbowroom | April 9, 2020 KBB's appraisal with and without says nothing about how Tesla values it, only about how KBB values it."

KBB.com just uses market value. What people paid for the cars. Market value of FSD is $1,750.

Magic 8 Ball | 10 April 2020

KBB does not set market value for anything, they offer an opinion only. It is a chicken and egg situation with these "value" guides. The float a number and some people use the number they float and then they claim that is the value because someone listened to their opinion. If you ever dealt with totaled cars the insurance company will have a wildly different opinion on value vs any of the guides, it is always a negotiation if you are smart.

FISHEV | 10 April 2020

"KBB does not set market value for anything,"

Correct KBB.com reports market value, price being paid.

TeslaTap.com | 10 April 2020

Interesting that KKB just gave Tesla 5 awards in the Luxury car brands category (ICE and EVs):

- Best Overall
- Best Value
- Most Refined
- Best Performance
- Best Styling

TeslaTap.com | 10 April 2020

KKB doesn't rate the value or usefulness of any option. They apply the same reduction in value on options no matter the option, brand or vehicle type. If you pay $4000 for your Lexus Navigation system, 4 years later the used price KBB assigns to it is $1000. It doesn't mean buyers will value it the same - it may be worth more or less to a specific used car buyer.

Again, if your sole reason for buying an option is to get great resale value on that option, you're fooling yourself. If you buy the option because it provides value to you while you own the car - then get it.

Magic 8 Ball | 10 April 2020

Reporting an opinion is still an opinion.

DonS | 10 April 2020

First mistake was buying FSD. Despite Tesla vehicles being great cars, it is not because of FSD. I believe the majority of vehicles that paid for FSD will be off the road before the feature really works for full self driving.

Some claim next year, next year, cars will drive themselves. They can in limited cases, but there are dozens of situations humans navigate every day that are way beyond any self driving system.

milesbb | 10 April 2020

What I am learning from this thread. If I want FSD the deals are in the used car market, not buying new.

FISHEV | 10 April 2020

TeslaTap.com | April 10, 2020 KKB doesn't rate the value or usefulness of any option."

Correct. KBB.com, Edmunds.com, NADA.com just report market prices, what buyers are paying for cars.

TeslaTap.com | April 10, 2020 if your sole reason for buying an option is to get great resale value on that option you're fooling yourself."

Or you are trying to fool people with a straw man argument. People buy the options because they want it in the car just like @keyszd stated. But options do have resale value form wheels to paint to nav to stereos.

The market says that the value of Tesla's FSD is $1,700 one year after someone paid $7,000 for it. The complaint here is that Tesla valued FSD at ZERO on the trade in, not even offering used car market value for FSD.

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