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Upgrade to Enhanced Autopilot?

Upgrade to Enhanced Autopilot?

I will take delivery in a few days of a MX ordered before AP2 was announced, but was produced after. Therefore it has HW2, but is currently configured with the $2500 AP1 convenience features software.

I am now faced with the choice of updating to Enhanced AP now for another $2500 more (5k total), or just keep the $2500 AP1 and potentially pay $3500 more later to get Enhanced AP. Anyone have any opinions on this? Is AP1 good enough to use for years and never want to update? Or will I kick myself in a month and wish I would have upgraded before delivery and saved the $1000! (I know a lot of this decision depends on 8.1 coming out and seeing how AP2 features improve over time... but unfortuntely I need to make this decision now!)

MyXinTx | 28 March 2017

I have to believe that once fully implemented, AP2 w/o EAP will outperform AP1 for quality of environmental perception, but no additional functionality, as presumably the single camera, radar, and ultrasonics will still only be used. But your radar unit is reportedly advanced and the processor will be faster..not that you will benefit from that.

EAP clearly will be superior to either AP1 or AP2 w/o EAP, features clearly listed online, taking AP to the next level.

I think most in your position will upgrade to EAP, I know I would having extensive knowledge of the AP limits.

The other question is about upgrading to Self-drive, since that functionality is more dependent on the regulators approving Tesla vehicles, since I am sure Tesla will make that feature possible. After all, what's the point of self-drive if you can only do it in your driveway.

And don't forget the "Upgrade after Delivery" prices are not guaranteed, they can be increased with a few clicks of a keyboard....

... Go for it...

poloX | 28 March 2017

I would not upgrade. There is a good chance you will get EAP for free. think about it. How many people is in your situation? Would Tesla come up with a S/W just for a few like you? If not, AP1 is fine too.

cica3838 | 28 March 2017

I was in your same position and went for it. We are so lucky to have gotten the latest hardware suite, and without EAP, you won't be taking advantage of any of it.

Maximus-X | 28 March 2017

If your car is manufactured after October 20th, it will have 8 cameras - set up for the Tesla's "in-house" software, i.e., AP2. You can't have AP1 (Mobileye) even if you wanted to. Therefore, your option seems either AP2 or nothing. Since you have already paid $2500, they might refund you if you decide not pay the extra $2500 for the AP2.

If I were you, I would ask them to honor what I paid at the time (with good faith) and get me AP2 at no additional cost.

cica3838 | 29 March 2017

Not a chance. They WILL deliver AP1 software on the AP2 hardware suite. I tried.

Lbkp100d | 29 March 2017

@polox hot the nail on the head. There is a small number of owners in your situation and of those many elected to pay for eap. I'm along same belief that tesla is only trying to get another 2.5k but you will end up with eap and only have paid 2.5k total. Worth the wait to see. You could always upgrade later. I would want to hear opinions of those with eap once updates begin rolling in.

j.trinh | 29 March 2017

I was in your exact position too (paid $2500 for Autopilot Convenience with AP2 hardware). I tried to get them to good gesture a free upgrade to EAP with no success. I even tried to get them to just charge me $2000 since AP1 at the time was increased to $3000 (although it was $2500 for me before the increase), they won't budge. I gave in and paid the additional $2500. The stress of not knowing what I will get without the upgrade was not worth it for me. Also, let's not forget that if you want FSD (when it's avail) will require you to have EAP. They'll get you sooner or later, I think...

sv_18 | 29 March 2017

Thanks all. I agree with the various comments questioning why a totally unique version of software would be maintained for this particularly small set of vehicles. At the same time, if a version of AP1 software existed that runs fine on HW2 and provides all HW1 features for the past few months, why have all the new HW2 vehicles come with a stripped down version of AP2 from October through 8.1 being released?! None of this makes sense.

If us transition period owners actually have AP1 software (probably with some small switches in place to support HW2 vehicles), then I can see this being maintained indefinitely since it is basically what all HW1 cars have too. I tend to think this is most likely, in which case a "free upgrade because they don't want to support a small set of users" seems unlikely.

If the differential between pre-delivery and post-delivery upgrade price wasn't $1000, I'd just gamble and wait... but I'll really kick myself if I end up wanting to upgrade in 6 months and essentially spend $1000 extra! Needless to say, I still haven't made this decision, but I think I need to today!

burdogg | 29 March 2017

svento - polox did what you have done so far - polox has had car for 3 months now - has all HW 2.0 but paid for just AP 1.0 like you did. Polox and I have had many conversations on here and what you really have to decide is this:

1 - Do you really need the three extra things EAP will do - ie, automatic lane change without you switching on the blinker, auto exit freeway, or auto exit freeway to connect with another freeway. That is the only difference between EAP and AP. Possibly the other difference is EAP will use 4 camera instead of just 1 camera. I have AP 1.0 and EAP. AP 1.0 works really well.
2 - Do you want the FSD? If you do plan to do this one, I believe you will have to pay to get the EAP, and then the FSD. If you have no desire for this, then you are just back to point #1.

Last - I truly believe that Tesla expected everyone to of course change over to EAP instead of keeping the AP that was originally ordered during this switch over. So there is a chance that you still will get all the 4 cameras working even with just AP. If not, that means Tesla for those few owners, has to go in and deactivate 3 cameras so that you only get the one camera as opposed to all their other HW 2.0 cars. Seems like a little bit of a hassle for them, and more likely will just utilize all 4 cameras for you. This is all just opinion though but the above two points still hold true. I love AP 1.0 and have had very little problems with it. Of course, I was in the same boat as you with the EAP as I had just ordered my X then. I wanted the FSD so I upgraded, If I didn't not want FSD, I may have stuck with AP 1.0 as opposed to paying 2,000 more to get just 3 more cameras, but nothing really worth function wise (sorry, but those three additional things added to AP is not that big of a deal)

MyXinTx | 29 March 2017

Put it this way, with 8.1 release today, it essentially gives HW2 the same features of AP1. Failure to elect to pay for EAP may keep 8.1 features as the final AP development state for your vehicle.

Being equally a Tesla fan and harsh critic, I don't think Tesla would think twice about have a special line of a software versions just for those HW2 owners that refused to upgrade to EAP when once offered option to do so...

The features currently included in EAP is just what is planned for now, who knows what additional features may come to EAP even without Self-driving added.

Like the "Close all" inside display door button was a gift for all, but the Fob-controlled Open Passenger door feature just went to PUP owners... truly a gift for those who upgraded.

It's a gamble either way...with your money and tech appetite... just like pre-paying for FSD which may or may not get fully approved for use on the roads.

What I would not bet on is expecting Tesla to give something away for free to those who chose not to upgrade...just like the Sig Red color.... ONLY to Sig Owners.

poloX | 29 March 2017

I don't know for sure I will eventually get EAP or not. I hope so but don't count on it. It was not what I wanted to buy because tested AP1 and it was very decent AND I do not want to rely too much on autopilot so it is not what I wanted to pay for. But if I change my mind in the future, I can always add it. So far, I am getting everything others EAP owners are getting, grainted that AP2 is still not on PAR with AP1. There is no auto park (back in) yet. Until when I see 4 cameras give many more features that I want, not too late to add it. Just pay a bit more $$.

poloX | 29 March 2017

@burdogg,
Wait a minute, I have auto lane change too. Have not tried it yet but I have it and I had just enabled it. We test it tomorrow. If it works, my theory is correct because this is the EAP feature only, not AP.

MyXinTx | 29 March 2017

@poloX - I fully agree with you that AP1 as it is pretty amazing, but you sound as though you don't want to get "addicted" to or dependent on it.

My perspective is that on 98% of the roads I travel when I use AP over 75% of the time, the level of safe driving more than doubles when I use AP. Now I am a good driver, albeit somewhat aggressive, but having that non-distracted electrinic system just adds to it.

Plus the "set it and forget it" concept to avoid speeding tickets is great for me, but not as valuable as when in heavy traffic, bumper-to-bumper.

But it's not perfect, and since I am transitioning to a AP2 vehicle, I hope that my satisfaction will increase exponentially, not just linearly.

But there is a cost, so each must consider the value of the added features. If somehow with the new AP vendor and structure Tesla offers some type of hardware upgrade to HW1 for near EAP functionality, I suspect many will drop a few grand to upgrade.

What I still don;t get is why Tesla's will not safely auto-brake to avoid collisions unless AP is activated, like so many other manufactures feature and advertise. Makes no sense to me, but maybe EAP may include that.

poloX | 29 March 2017

As Burdogg said, he and I discussed this at length. There are 4 features that EAP offers. Auto lane change, freeway connection, freeway exit...I don't need any of those. Do I believe that EAP with the use of 4 cameras will eventually be way better than AP. I sure do. How much better, no one knows yet. I again, don't need and never plan to use any of the four features that are advertised for EAP. What I honestly wait for is the use of the rear view camera. Say if there is a stupid driver behind me instead of focusing on the road is busy texting and is about to rear end me, can EAP with the use of the rear view camera steer me out of trouble or not? That is important to me, not auto lane change, over taking slow car in front of me, or connect to other freeway or auto exit...I am not that lazy and I'm still enjoying driving.

burdogg | 29 March 2017

@poloX - the auto lane change you got is still what AP 1.0 has - it doesn't do anything until you click your blinker to change lanes, then it will do it for you. The EAP version that is still coming out is that you will not have to click the blinker, the car will just know to change lanes and do it (yeah, the only way I see this is if it has to start slowing down for the car ahead of you and so it sees it has space to change lanes and does it for you that way. Or you need to exit a little bit ahead so it starts changing lanes to get you in the lane to exit). So that is the difference, right now, all HW 2.0 has lane change features that AP 1.0 has. So that won't tell you anything yet.

@MyXinTx - My main point for the op is the first two points. That should be the deciding factor. As this is a slow march on for AP 2.0 (it is still not on par with AP 1.0 for those that claim it is. We still don't have normal speed on local roads, or highways that are not limited access (aka freeways) which is a huge thing for a good percentage of us drivers, no auto dimming, no auto windshield wipers, so yeah, for me, this update changed nothing. I need the autosteer on local roads). I understand trying to save $1,000 so just do the EAP now, but boy, you may just save $2,000 and realize AP 1.0 is everything you need. Hey, if in 1-2 years, they add better functions, then you can always pay to get them and at that point, you only paid $1,000 more (unless things increase in price).

As far as adding new features to EAP - not sure what more to add :) Stopping at stop signs and stop lights, everyone wants this with EAP, but it is a stated FSD function. Also, if they did let this work for EAP (I am really a believer that they will not allow this for EAP) it would also work for AP 1.0 - the camera forward facing is the same camera and would detect the same lights/stop signs. AP 1.0 as you know already detects signs, so there is no reason why it is not already detecting stop signs too. My theory - it can, but what does it do next? The car can't clear the intersection - neither can EAP - that is a FSD function. So great, it stopped, but what next? I don't think Tesla wants to get involved in that as a driver enhancement - hence it falls into the FSD category. Anyway, just some basic thoughts.

As far as getting something for free - I don't think Tesla wants or plans to give anything for free. I am just saying the cost vs benefit here. This situation only applies to a limited amount of people - those that ordered AFTER the announcement, did not get AP 1.0 option. ONLY those that had ordered before the announcement, and their cars were not on the PRODUCTION line have this option. So we are talking what 2,000-3,000 cars? (I really don't know the numbers and don't care to go look at a normal backlog etc... of cars :) I would bet less than 10% choose to stay with AP 1.0 with all the hype around EAP and FSD. So what, lets say 400 maybe 500 cars stick with AP 1.0? So Tesla, with all the push etc... and code having to write for what is going down, is going to really work to then rewrite some of the code for those 500 cars to "downgrade" them to AP 1.0? Not saying they won't, just giving my reasons behind it - cost versus benefit. If it costs them more money to pay people to write codes and make sure all AP 1.0 features are working properly for the handful of customers - they may loose more money then just saying, oh well.

Anyway, sorry for long post, just trying to throw out some of the thoughts behind everything.

sv_18 | 30 March 2017

Thanks again, all. This has helped. I decided to upgrade. I'm still not convinced the upgrade is truly worth the price, but I think personally I'd rather pay now (relatively small bump on an already ridiculously big purchase!) vs deciding I want it in 6 months and regretting that I then have to pay $1000 more (or even more, depending on what they do to the price).

BTW, I have been thinking about the reasons why these transition MXs have AP1 software with HW2, but new HW2 vehicles were stuck on inferior AP2 software until yesterday... and I bet the reason is actually a business one. I suspect the deal to license the AP1 software from MobilEye was ended as of October, and so Tesla had no choice but to push out the (not quite yet ready) AP2 software at that time. But the transition vehicles were still allowed to use AP1 software by the terms of the contract. I may be way off on this one, but it seems the most likely reason for what seems like a strange situation. This article seems to confirm some aspects of this theory: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-16/tesla-says-mobileye-t...

Leli001 | 30 March 2017

This may sound silly, but I was one of those AP1 orders but got AP2 HW as I ordered in September and it was built in November. The reason I did the upgrade was to have all the new features (eventually) and have the extra cost ($3k AP1 option + $2k EAP upgrade + $3k FSD) as part of the loan. I can think of it this way: I will be paying for those features towards the end of my financing term in 5 years or so. By that time, EAP should be nearly perfected and FSD (hopefully approved) working.

Six one way, half a dozen the other, I still feel it was a must have option that I am anxiously waiting for.

Here is another reason some may find amusing, but when people hear that I got a Tesla, they always say, 'Wow, it is all electric and can drive itself (I know, AP is not self-driving but most people just say it that way)'. What a disappointment it would be if I told them that I did not get that option. Granted I have still have to wait for it but that option is in the works is better than I didn't get it.

Tesla - best known for electric cars with Autopilot

burdogg | 30 March 2017

@svento - you misunderstand when we say HW 2.0 has AP 1.0. Anyone with HW 2.0 does not use anything with Mobileye. So anyone with HW 2.0 whether they choose to stick with AP 1.0 or go to EAP has had the exact same situation as far as autosteer goes.

To put it another way - AP 1.0 on HW 2.0 cars that got them say Jan 1 - did not have any autosteer. They are using the exact same software that his being developed for HW 2.0 cars. AP 1.0 software on old cars does NOT work with the new hardware. That is why we are saying that those with HW 2.0 cars and choose to stay with AP 1.0 are porbably going to get pretty close to the same experience as those with EAP.

Last, AP 1.0 on my Model S with Mobileye is completely different from AP 1.0 on say PoloX's car (poloX got HW 2.0 but stuck with AP 2.0)

Hope that makes sense.

poloX | 30 March 2017

@burdogg, thanks for clarifying Autolane change v.s. over taking slow car.

poloX | 30 March 2017

@burdogg,
What about this, 2 cameras used now allowing the biggest speed jump from 55mph to now 80mph. So I got 2 cameras too.

https://electrek.co/2017/03/30/tesla-autopilot-2-0-camera-8-1-update/

burdogg | 30 March 2017

Very nice - As I have opined before, I think you will get use of all the cameras. I am not sure on those three additional features, but again, I think you will get it as it would require Tesla in this state of trying to develop all these features, write code that does not give you these features. They are too busy trying to get it all working, to then try to go back, write code for those few that shouldn't be getting those features, to really care to take the time and expense to do so. It would be different if they were offering AP, EAP, and FSD to everyone right now. Then you would see it. But with this being a short time, and I really think Tesla touted EAP and FSD that they really did expect everyone to just make the jump.

Anyway, time will tell :-)

tjhappel | 30 March 2017

I could have gotten my same car with ap1 in December for a 10k discount, I am really wishing now I did as I have a service loaner with ap1 and even after the new release we aren't truly close.

Really wish they would have been clearer on this one. I feel like a sucker paying for fsd when reality is at this pace it'll be ready in 2 years and they'll have some new magic car out with 100x the processing power plus all this other cool stuff like way better remove whuch matters really more than anything to me for road trips...

Oh well, still love tesla but hate the false advertising.

Saxman | 31 March 2017

Polox

You make a very good point about the "2 camera" scenario...But what do I know :)....??????

MyXinTx | 15 May 2017

@Svento - What did you end up doing? Keep[ AP1 or Upgrade to EAP?

@ Burrdog - I agree that EAP will not be used for stopping other than behind another vehicle, and not based on stop light/signs. but let's say they do.

I really doubt Tesla will put any resources into upgrading AP1 at all. They have have new partner with EAP and will not work on the older software for upgrades. Besides, HW1 does not have the processing power to do the more difficult image processing and decision making that HW2 does and perhaps the image resolution of the cameras are very different.

@tjhappel - I hate to agree with you about being a "sucker paying for FSD", but you may be correct. I don't doubt Tesla can create a safe FSD, but it really comes down to the municipal regulators to approve the use of it on the road. time will tell, but I suspect there will be stringent requirements for approval, and who knows it the lack of a LIDAR, which many other vehicles are using, will be a factor. We know there will be a HW3, and Tesla does not support hardware upgrades.
Will Tesla reimburse those with HW2 that did pay for FSD if it never gets approved? Highly unlikely!!
I chose to upgrade for the additional cost if it does get approved.

TeslaTap.com | 15 May 2017

@MyXinTx - Actually I do expect Tesla will refund any FSD payments if they can't make it work or regulatory issues stop it. The money collected is not income until they "release" FSD, so it has zero effect to the bottom line if they have to refund the money. Refunds would affect cash flow small amount.

Considering production cars today with LIDAR perform far poorer than AP1 cars (Car and Driver tests), it's far from clear that LIDAR will be a success in volume vehicles. The sensors are important, but the software is really important. I don't see any conceptual reason why a vision system can't work as well or better than LIDAR considering us humans have been driving for 100+ years using this system!

Perhaps LIDAR systems will be fantastic, but it could require far more computing power than is economically realistic in a vehicle or require years more software development than vision systems. We'll know more in 2 years which approaches work and are viable for production vehicles.

Vawlkus | 16 May 2017

I wouldn't expect a refund if Tesla has FSD blocked by regulations. When you select that option during configuration, the text block specifically states that FSD is subject to regulatory approval. People should know going in that they may get the feature, but not be legally able to use it from that statement.

inconel | 16 May 2017

I happily paid an additional 3% to get the use of 8 cameras and maybe one day some form of FSD.