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Signature Series Production Longevity

Signature Series Production Longevity

After the first lot (1000 in U.S. + 200 in Canada + whatever international) of Signature cars are released, will Tesla continue to sell the Signature Model S, or is that the end of the limited edition series?

Douglas3 | September 19, 2011

That's it, the end.

David M. | September 20, 2011

You can always "Option Up" a production Model S to come close, with the exception of some cosmetic things that won't be offered. But it will probably cost more to do that, and the badging won't say "Signature".

I thought Tesla would have released some suggested pricing for the Signature by now. I guess reservations have been so strong, they haven't had to. Too bad, I might have upgraded my (P).

I expect that final Signature pricing will come in over $90K after taxes, and before the $7,500 tax break. I wonder what would happen if some of the (S) reservation holders want to downgrade after Signature pricing is finally released?? Do they go to the front of the (P) line because of their sizable deposit?

Ron5 | September 22, 2011

$90k would be next to impossible. I've already estimated my "base" price (no options other than the 300mi battery that I will be forced by Tesla to get because I have a low number) will be $82,150 using your parameters above. For the Signature to be $90k, that means only around $6k of other options + tax.

David M. | September 22, 2011

The Signature will be loaded up without separately pricing the options. On the Signature, the options will be discounted. I'm guessing the pre-discount price will be around $90k. A great deal for someone who wants all the options plus more.

My5bAby | October 21, 2011

Putting up 40k in advance to pay more? We are not just helping with interest. We are showing interest and that is good for investment. I think we should get some options included for the same price that production model owners will pay for a bottom of the line 300mile range Model S. It is the only thing that makes sense. We have put up a lot of money for a vehicle that is not yet in production. Money that would be lost if the company were to go under. If the price is above 80k before tax rebate I for one will cancel and simply purchase a production model. Lastly, I don't think Elon's idea is to make as much money as he can because that simply plays into the naysayers who say, "well yea basically 100k, who can really afford that!". Elon said he will not be satisfied until every car is an EV and being stuck at north of 80k won't achieve that goal.

Signature 482

Brant | October 21, 2011

Every Tesla person I have talked to is estimating 90-95K for the SIG
40K in advance gets you to the front of the line and a reservation for a limited edition car thats fully loaded
Some people just gotta be first
I would do it but the wife would kill me
: )

Mycroft | October 21, 2011

When you think about it, the Signature Edition must be at least $90k.

Options probably definitely in Signature (priced accordingly)

- Premium paint
- Leather seats
- Heated seats
- Premium trim
- Badging

Possibly included:

- 21" wheels
- Premium audio
- Air suspension
- Pano roof

If the base is $78,000 without all that crap, how much will the Signature be?

That said, there's absolutely nothing wrong with the base. Even the $58k model will have twice the range of the Leaf, twice the storage, and twice the luxury.

Would you like fries with that? :)

EdG | October 21, 2011

I agree with My5bAby. Having put up a significant chunk of money and let it ride on a company, as I've said before, isn't "too big to fail" should buy you something. Premium paint is a minimum - almost a throwaway - in that regard. I don't expect the roof or the extra seats, but other stuff should come for free or for a low price. Maybe buying the options at cost? I don't see it as "I've gotta be first" so I tossed in the $40K.

Brian H | October 22, 2011

A little social psych note: The #1 motivation for humans seems to be status. Given a choice of a $500K home in a neighbourhood of $400K homes, or a $1million home in a neighbourhood of $1.5M homes, the overwhelming majority choose A.

Volker.Berlin | October 22, 2011

Brian H, so what?

Brant | October 22, 2011

To be fair to the Tesla folks, they never promised a 20-25% ROI of the reservation fee in the form of freebies for the SIG. The only published statements I recall were:
1) get one of the 1st 1000 cars made
2) possibly color and interior options not available to the production cars.
3) special badging
4) well equipped
5) 300mile battery
Now if someone got a nudge-and-a-wink from a Tesla employee or were told they would be "taken care of" then I think that is reasonable cause to get pissed if the price is 90-95K. Otherwise it was wishful thinking on the reservation holders part and I don't think it is fair to get mad at Tesla.
I found myself caught up in this exact type of speculation when deciding which car to reserve, P vs. S. The lack of a published price for the SIG eventually brought me back to Earth. If it is not in writing you just never know.

EdG | October 22, 2011

You're correct. No guarantees were made. On the other hand, some nice extras for the Signature were implied. Nowhere was it said that the Sig would cost more (nor did they say it would be the same cost as other 300s). I'm just saying that a "thank you" wouldn't be out of order for those who helped put millions in cash, interest free, at Tesla's disposal.

Soflauthor | October 23, 2011

@EdG wrote: I'm just saying that a "thank you" wouldn't be out of order for those who helped put millions in cash, interest free, at Tesla's disposal.

It would certainly be nice, but my bet is that any extras will cost Sig holders. I'm just hoping that TM doesn't get carried away and price the Sig > $90K. If they do, I'm willing to bet they'll lose some Sig reservations.

Tesla is in a difficult position—to grow, it must show a profit fairly quickly, hence, the need to maintain meaningful margins and not give away stuff. As important, it needs to generate rave reviews out of the blocks and meaningful market buzz, so that sales broaden beyond those of us who are signed up to the tech. Keeping the price "reasonable" will help in that regard. It's a dilemma for the company. We'll see how TM reacts.

Brant | October 23, 2011

@EdG
I agree with that; a "thank you" would not be out of order. $40K is a chunk of change for most of us and my understanding is that some have held reservations for up to 2 yrs now.

My point is that Tesla clearly stated what they were offering for that 40K reservation fee. The expectation of receiving something above and beyond what was stated is the peril here. One should expect Tesla(or any company)to live up to their public claims/statements and customer contracts. Nothing more, nothing less.
Not stating the final cost of the SIG (and the fat reservation fee)has probably been the cause of such speculation of a "thank you" which is not unreasonable, but it remains speculation.

If Tesla does decide to surprise SIG customers with added perks, what constitutes an adequate/fair "thank you" is going to vary between reservation holders. There will undoubtedly be some unhappy SIG reservation holders when pricing is announced due to these variable expectations/speculations. I just don't think it is reasonable to take it out on Tesla if they deliver what they promised as this is the only fair expectation to hold them to.

Mycroft | October 23, 2011

Yep, until they announce pricing for all this crap, it's all just a guessing game.

My expectations are that the Sig will be $10k more than the 300 mile GP model and it will include the premium paint, leather seats, premium interior trim (hopefully wood grain), NAV, and premium stereo.

If they throw in 21" wheels, pano roof or air suspension, I think it will kick the price above $90k.

toto_48313 | October 23, 2011

Signature holder are people who "believe" in Tesla, and where ready to give as much as support to Tesla people. However as any Platinium membership (in other domain) I expect to get some benefit, and not only having my car earlier than the other.

I hope that TESLA will reward the "believer" by offering a fully loaded car with less money benefit for them than on a general production car.

However, all of this is just speculation at that time, as we have no idea of what it will really be.

Sig #5

Larry Chanin | October 23, 2011

Hi,

When I was at the Fremont event I spoke to a Tesla employee and he said that the Signature model wouldn't cost too much more than the general production model with the cost of separate options. So I believe you will be paying a little extra for the privilege of getting one of the first off of the production line, but most importantly getting early delivery in front of general production reservation holders who made reservations many months earlier than you.

Personally I think that most Signature Model S reservation holders will be lucky if they can keep the total cost under $100K, especially when you consider sales taxes and destination charges.

If I seriously thought I could get a Signature for around $80-85K I would upgrade my reservation, but as I said I think it will be closer to $100K.

Unfortunately, by the time Tesla releases the options and costs, I'm pretty sure the 1000 Signatures reservations will have been filled.

Larry

Mycroft | October 23, 2011

I'm sure they'll set up a waiting list after the Signature reservations are filled. It's very possible that more than few Signatures will drop down to GP once the pricing and options are announced. As you say, if Signature goes over $90k, some folks might say it's not worth it just to be early and drop down.

As signature holders drop down to GP, then Tesla could use the waiting list to bump GP holders (who waited too long to get on the original list) up to signature. They're going to make 1,000 signature cars regardless. If they don't get enough pre-sold, then they'll have some signature editions in the showrooms for impulse sales. All 1,000 cars will be sold regardless of the price.

brianman | October 23, 2011

It would be interesting to see if any Signature holders would say Yes to a second one for the wife if given the opportunity.

Larry Chanin | October 23, 2011

As some Signature reservation holders succumb to sticker shock and drop down to General Production, it will be interesting to discover how Tesla will reorder the respective lists.

I suppose the fair thing to do would be to check the date of the reservation and place the reservation holder in the General Production list where he/she would have been if he/she placed a General Production reservation in the first place.

Larry

Mycroft | October 23, 2011

"It would be interesting to see if any Signature holders would say Yes to a second one for the wife if given the opportunity."

Not me! She gets the Model S when I get my Roadster 3.0. :D

Robert.Boston | October 24, 2011

Just as a reality check, in today's ultra-low interest rate regime, the interest savings to Tesla from having a net $35k extra in the bank for three years is about $2700 (at 2.5% interest). Of course, nearly half of the Signature holders will have had their money on deposit for less than a year, with an interest value to Tesla of $600 or less. Soooo... if I were a Sig holder (I am a P holder), I wouldn't be counting on an overly large amount of "freebies" on my car. To the contrary, the likely bump up in the resale value of the car probably more than compensates for the interest.

Mycroft | October 24, 2011

RB, I agree. Having folks chip in $40k, I think, was more for publicity and for showing their investors that people take the car seriously. Getting the car quicker is a nice reward and more than makes up for the lost interest.

David70 | October 24, 2011

Right. I'm only getting the production model. Since I don't ever intend to sell the car (well children might after I'm dead), I don't care about the resale value.

Brian H | October 25, 2011

V.B.;
Sooo ... exclusivity sells. People pay for uniqueness, including having "limited edition" Signatures, whether or not they are objectively better than a fully loaded 300 mi. S.
But I wonder -- will the Sigs come with the Sport package, the 4.5 accel?

Mycroft | October 25, 2011

Highly unlikely. While I would certainly welcome it, I think they're going to want the money from the upgrade to Sport version.

Schlermie | October 25, 2011

When I was at the Beta demo at Santana Row (about 3 weeks ago), one of the Tesla staff said they were internally debating whether or not it's a good idea to include the Sport package in the Signature models.

sarge7359 | October 25, 2011

I'm pretty sure the Sport package will be an option for the Signature but not included in the base package.

Air suspension is likely included, 21" wheels as well (with option to get 19s I think, dunno if as 2nd set or just substitute). The fancy roof is a likely option and maybe w/e they decide to do with that blank spot in front of the touchscreen (if anything).

ncn | October 30, 2011

I certainly hope the price of the Signature does not include Sport or the panoramic roof; since I don't want either! The same for the 21" wheels, although they actually won't cost too much more than the 19" wheels, so that isn't as big a deal.

I can handle a premium of $10,000 for a "basic" Signature over a "basic" 300-mile Tesla, but not much more than that. For "big ticket" options I don't want to pay for something I'll never use; I would be upset if the Signature had a premium of $15,000 over a "basic" 300-mile Tesla merely because it included the Sport option or the 21" wheels or whatever.

Andrew18 | October 30, 2011

Ncn -- I agree completely and am of the same mind

Mycroft | October 30, 2011

The Signature edition will certainly NOT include the Sport upgrade and it's highly unlikely to include the pano roof.

Robert.Boston | October 30, 2011

Why do you think that, Mycroft? Every Beta Signature had the pano roof -- seems likely to me that the pano roof is part of the Signature package.

Mycroft | October 30, 2011

I don't know for sure, but I think too many people either don't like sun roofs or will only want it if there's a retractable cover for it. I don't think Tesla engineered a cover, so that's why I think it will be an optional add-on.

We'll see.

cablechewer | October 30, 2011

If the Design Studio is any indication the Signature lists the panoramic roof and the larger wheels as options.

I expect the Signature owners to get some sort of discounts on the options over regular production buyers, but nothing earth shattering. I assume this 'discount' will be worded as a freebie or exclusive. I just hope it is more than throwing in the Premium Paint, but given the price of the Premium Paint on the Roadster I would be pleasantly surprised if Tesla went much further. Basically if the Signature comes with $X in options and exclusives I would expect that regular production buyers could get almost the same thing, but might have to spend 10-30% more on the options (thus $10k in options added to the Sig would be $11k-$13k in options on the P series).

I am already disappointed I can't get my Signature in Blue (the Design studio makes it look almost purple in the roof view on my monitor - Do others see that or do I need to recalibrate it?). I will wait for the final pricing to see if it is compelling enough for me to select a different colour. If it isn't I will drop to regular production and get the car exactly the way I want it from the start.

I will also drop back to regular production if the pre-tax price of the Sig hits 6 figures. I have been budgeting to spend ~$90k Cdn. I haven't decided if that is before or after Ontario's electric vehicle rebate (I would of course prefer before :) ).

Andrew18 | October 30, 2011

Cablechewer-
I spoke with tesla and they are optional in the signature not options you need to buy.
They said some people may not want pan roof or larger wheels

Denis Vincent | October 30, 2011

Cablechewer Having seen the Monterey Blue Metallic at the factory event, it is almost exactly (slightly darker) the same Blue that the Mazda CX9 is available in.....very nice rich colour!

Larry Chanin | November 1, 2011

@cablechewer

"Basically if the Signature comes with $X in options and exclusives I would expect that regular production buyers could get almost the same thing, but might have to spend 10-30% more on the options (thus $10k in options added to the Sig would be $11k-$13k in options on the P series)."

As I mentioned earlier, based on my conversation with a Tesla representative, I expect just the opposite. That is, despite Signature bundled option discounts, I expect the base Signature to be priced slightly higher than a general production Model S with equivalent options. The Signature reservation holders are paying a premium for exclusivity, i.e. Signature badging, limited edition color, and the ability to get their cars earlier than all general production reservation holders regardless of how long they've had a reservaton.

Larry

Volker.Berlin | November 1, 2011

Larry, thanks for putting it this way, makes much more sense to me. While the US Signature may be sold out already at the time when final prices for models and options are announced, I doubt that the international/European Signature reservation list will carry 1000 names at that point.

If Signatures turn out to be cheaper than their Production counterparts with the same battery and options, then at this point a rush of P reservation holders would jump ship and the S would be sold out within hours, with nothing to gain for Tesla.

If the Signatures are actually higher priced, some P reservation holders may still switch to the Signature to skip the line, and some new customers would also have the option to choose the Signature. In any case, Tesla would make an additional buck from them, and the value they get for paying the premium is the front of the line and the badging plus a few exclusive options that may or may not be free, but are simply not available to P reservation holders.

IMO, reserving a Signature with the intent to save money is wishful thinking. There are enough other reasons to choose the Signature, Tesla does not need to give away anything.

Volker.Berlin | November 3, 2011

Conspicuously, the black roof option has vanished from the Design Studio for the P Model S. It is still available for the Signature, so that may be another option that is exclusively available for the $40k depositors.

Robert.Boston | November 3, 2011

It's still coming up for me, Volker, even on the P options.

Volker.Berlin | November 3, 2011

I stand corrected. The black roof option is not available if you choose black body color (which seems to be the default when launching the Design Studio). It becomes available when you choose a different body color. Makes sense.