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Youtube videos are going to screw us all

Youtube videos are going to screw us all

Just as what happened with the original Auto Pilot where people just couldn't resist posting their stupidity on Youtube, Tesla eventually had to add so many restrictions to AP that it ruined for the majority who use it responsibly.

In just a few days, already seeing countless idiotic youtube videos of people abusing Enhanced Summon. So, enjoy it while you can because soon enough, there will be "news" reports of these idiots causing accidents with "driverless" cars and Tesla will again have to add restrictions to ruin it for rest of it.

Just posting in, probably a useless plea, to people to please not post your stupidity for all to see. I would say use it responsibly and COURTEOUSLY, but I know that's a waste a breath. But, please, at least don't advertise if for all to see on youtube. Don't ruin it for everyone.

Tesla will still learn from the data they extract from your car's computer. The videos showing stupid acts accomplish nothing positive. They just bring to light, that a select few are not responsible enough to handle this technology responsibly. And because Tesla can't isolate those few out, eventually they'll have to add restrictions to everyone.

AP used to be the greatest thing since slice bread. With all the nags now, because of the above, it's so much less enjoyable than it was originally. If you didn't have a Tesla in 2015/2016, then you don't know what you're missing, but it was INCREDIBLE.

Clearly Enhanced Summon is FAR from perfect and the car has a long way to go before being a true self driving car on its own. But I love having the ability to be part of that process. Just hope that a bunch of what it is capable of doesn't get taken away.

Just a simple plea to please be responsible and courteous to other drivers in parking lots. Use it in a manner that isn't stupid and that doesn't piss off other drivers by having to sit and wait for your car to move because summon disconnected with the car in the middle of the aisle.

Thank you

Reference: Car & Driver: People Are Posting Videos of Close Calls with Tesla's New Smart Summon Feature
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a29303234/tesla-smart-summon-self-driv...

calvin940 | October 2, 2019

The NHTSA is already chatting with Tesla about smart summon after hearing and seeing the idiot owners that have done exactly that.

vmulla | October 2, 2019

Let's assume there's an accident while using enhanced summon. Who is the driver of the vehicle for insurance purposes?

Atoms | October 2, 2019

If things feel uncomfortable, then major changes are underway. There will be poking, jabbing, slurs, fighting. Lawyers, politicians all in the mix along with those pushing for advancement. It will all settle out, but I came to the realization 15 minutes before reading this, it will require the undesirable public struggle to advance as fast as possible. Lots of us don’t like negative news and look for a well controlled world. That is not where innovation lies.

bjrosen | October 2, 2019

My guess is that liability will depend on the severity of the accident. If the car dents another car then the person who initiated the summon would be held liable, that will be just an ordinary insurance case. However suppose something really bad happens such as the car running over a child, then Tesla will be facing the mother of all lawsuits. The person who's car caused the accident will also be held responsible just as they would had they been driving the car but the lawyers for the victim will surely go after Tesla because they are a big fat target and it will be easy to make a case to a jury that they released an unsafe piece of software.

Shesmyne2 | October 2, 2019

OP +1
I’ve said it before..SMART summon.
So be smart.

Still Grinning ;-)

vmulla | October 2, 2019

@bjrosen,
Makes sense.

I expect someone to walk in front of a Tesla on SmartSummon just to make some money.

M3phan | October 2, 2019

I couldn’t agree more… It just ticks me off to see these morons posting irresponsible videos on YouTube.
Biggest offender I’ve recently seen is “Drag times”, where the moron not only did testing in an overly crowded gym parking lot, he posted a follow up video where his car gets pulled over by a cop in a parking lot because he let the car summon through a stop sign… He went ahead and actually posted this on YouTube! Now there’s debate whether it was staged or not but the point is still the same, why would you do something that would make all Tesla owners look like self indulgent a-holes? Well maybe it’s because the poster of that YouTube video comes across as one of the biggest a-holes out there. What a jerk. Thanks for creating more fud, idiot. I strive to be a reasonable poster on these forums, but seeing this irresponsibility rankles me. Come on people (i’m speaking to the irresponsible smart summon people out there), dont screw it for the majority of us, users who have logged nearly 600,000 uses of smart summon.

And you wonder why you haven’t received an invitation to the EAP club? Really??

M3phan | October 2, 2019

(I think I may have popped a forehead vein on that last one…)

Hal Fisher | October 2, 2019

Why did they even release that crap? What a joke. It like putting an 8 year old behind the wheel. Freaking irresponsible.

terminator9 | October 2, 2019

You drive the car by either hitting the physical accelerator with your foot or by pressing the button on your phone (this is almost 2020 after all). You are responsible either way. If you got a giant 6 foot box, put it on some temporary wheels and pushed it towards someone, you would be responsible for that too! :)

terminator9 | October 2, 2019

Because everyone needs to be a 8 year old at some point. You can't directly be a 20 year old and skip the previous years.
-----------------
Why did they even release that crap? What a joke. It like putting an 8 year old behind the wheel. Freaking irresponsible.

vmulla | October 2, 2019

@M3phan,
SmartSummon worked through a stop sign? Ok, there are plenty of stop signs in parking lots, how should that even work?

jamilworm | October 2, 2019

I don't think it's that ambiguous as to who is responsible or considered the "driver". Even in any normal car, if you put it in gear and get out and let it roll away into another car, it's not like you can say "I wasn't driving so I'm not liable!" Obviously whoever initiated the motion is responsible.

2015P90DI | October 2, 2019

"Operator" of the car is fully responsible. That's not to say someone couldn't try to sue Tesla. But the instructions make it clear, that if you choose to operate the summon feature, YOU are responsible for the car and anything that happens. The car is not a Level 4 or Level 5 autonomous vehicle capable of operating without a human present to take over.

I could be wrong, but I don't believe Tesla has lost a lawsuit yet regarding Auto Pilot accidents? Hence, their disclosure and instructions have protected them thus far. Despite there clearly being cases where AP failed. But, had the driver been paying closer attention, could have avoided the accident. Same responsibility exists with the Summon Feature.

M3phan | October 2, 2019

Yep, In his video he was in a large private parking lot that included stop signs at the end of the rows before it went onto what looked like a ring row around the parking lot exterior. I’ve seen lots of parking lots that include stop signs in their design. At any rate, His car stopped in previous tests at the stop sign, turned on the indicator, and then turned onto the exterior row, but on his final test it rolled through the stop sign making that turn and that’s when a cop that was in the parking lot saw it and pulled it over. The owner/tester stopped summon at that point and kept filming the cop who was wondering what to do… It was mildly amusing for a moment, but just frustrated me that the self indulgent idiot would post this on YouTube.

M3phan | October 2, 2019

PS, the police officer was mildly befuddled and amused at pulling over a driverless car, and the driver/tester got away with no ticket.

I agree, the driver is always responsible whether he’s sitting in the seat or standing outside remotely controlling.

2015P90DI | October 2, 2019

Just saw the video from Drag Times. That's as staged as could possibly be. Definitely not real.

M3phan | October 2, 2019

Sure looked like it.
But the negative backlash it can generate is still the same

2015P90DI | October 2, 2019

I agree. Goes exactly to my point. People finding ways to be stupid with their cars.

howard | October 2, 2019

Why sit in the car and use a game controller when you can stand outside and use your phone as a game controller. This is the ultimate expression of Tesla entertainment. A very unfortunate side effect of pushing the future in a non-controlled responsible environment. Maybe research vehicles with professionals at the controls. What does one really expect? Responsibility by unrestricted owners/drivers. Oh, for utopia to exist.

Nakid | October 2, 2019

That would have to be staged. Parking lots in general are private property, therefore not subject to the normal laws of traffic unless there's either an incident or the owner of the property contacts the police to make a report.

2015P90DI | October 2, 2019

People keep saying (on other threads too) that just because you're in a parking lot, the police have no jurisdiction. Like you can just do whatever the hell you want without consequence because it's a parking lot. That's NOT true. Can't say for all states and cities, but police can absolutely give you a ticket in a parking lot. The violation codes are indeed different, but you can still be cited for violating the law in a parking lot.

ICEMELT | October 3, 2019

Has anyone genuinely used the smart summon?

Is the lateral range always fixed ? Any way to work around?

Yesterday it was raining heavily and I wanted to use it but I was about 2 cars farther than allowed.

eztider | October 3, 2019

Isn't Smart Summon in beta? I guess the posters are beta testers (as are we all), although irresponsible "click" beta testers.

andy.connor.e | October 3, 2019

The real problem here is social media. Look at what people do for attention.

rwa | October 3, 2019

Gee, who could have possibly anticipated that social media would be a problem for a novelty feature that straight up doesn't work by any reasonable measure yet.

I also don't buy the idea that "they need the real world data". Of the many fails posted on YouTube, 95% of them aren't anything that 3 or 4 test team members couldn't come up with in the first fifteen minutes of thinking of scenarios to test in a controlled environment.

Releasing it now is a huge risk for the future of self driving technology more generally. Very unwise.

The only semi rational, although diabolical, justification I can come up with for releasing it in this state is to light a fire under the team that if they don't get it working better pronto, people could get hurt and/or the whole enterprise of self driving vehicles could be threatened.

M3phan | October 3, 2019

I don’t think they’d release this to light a fire under the team. That’s not a risk worth taking. I’ve always seen it this way: Major feature adjustment happens with the EAP group. Fleetwide beta is more like tweaking.

Magic 8 Ball | October 3, 2019

Just seeing the car drive on its own, even for a short distance, is huge and inspiring. The wow factor overrides any of troll negativity on this. It worked good enough for me, first time, to understand why they released it the way it is.

Devilstower | October 3, 2019

The ones that drive me nuts are the ones where the owners are putting the car into an impossible situation. "I just parked in a one direction lane where the only possible way to reach me is to either go the wrong way or cross a public street, now let's watch to see if I can get the car to screw up."

Only, to make things worse, several that I've seen don't even bother to mention that they've purposely chosen a situation the car explicitly says is inappropriate. It makes about as much sense as if the owners simply drove off the road, then blamed the car.

M3phan | October 3, 2019

They are a bunch of click bait turds.

Smart Summon works well for me most times. Looking forward to improvements.

Unless the turds stink it all up for the rest of us.

Devilstower | October 3, 2019

Yes, I'm more interesting in the 550,400 uses of Smart Summon that are NOT on YouTube.

howard | October 3, 2019

It is up to the owner/driver to make sure the drive path is legal, safe and reasonably obtainable within the limits of the car's functions. Personally I can't ever imagine taking the risk or finding it very useful but happy for all you others to use it until it is "released" in a non-beta state.

M3phan | October 3, 2019

Had a beautiful summon after work today at max distance (near empty lot, no other moving cars or pedestrians). Found it works better on LTE and not my work WiFi.

M3phan | October 3, 2019

Works better on LTE meaning:
-no repeated disconnects
-no delayed starts
-consistent driving/movement with fewer pauses mid course

rsingh05 | October 3, 2019

It’s worked well when you have good cellular coverage and in an open parking lot during the day. Hasn’t worked well in covered parking garages ( of course - poor gps signal) or in a makeshift parking lot in the grass.

Releasing it in beta gives a lot more real world data to test on to make the neural net better. I bet we will keep seeing frequent SW updates with nothing but better trained summon neural net for the near future.

4barkie | October 3, 2019

I tried summon today in a virtually empty best buy parking lot. It worked well, although I though it was going to hit the curb once. I tried it from several places in the lot but without any cars around it was hard for me to tell how useful it is right now. I plan to try it out again in the same lot when I can stand directly in front of the building.

The comcast guy parked at the other end of the lot got a kick out of it. He was more excited about it than I was.

billtphotoman | October 4, 2019

Sadly I can almost feel the NHTSA pulling the plug on this because of a few owners abusing it for their 15 seconds of fame...

andy.connor.e | October 4, 2019

Gotta get those views and likes, no matter what the cost. People get hit by cars and fall into the grand canyon taking a selfi.

jjgunn | October 4, 2019

vmulla | October 2, 2019
Let's assume there's an accident while using enhanced summon. Who is the driver of the vehicle for insurance purposes?
-------
If you're pushing & HOLDING the "come to me" button, aren't YOU responsible? Even if you're not in the car.

Even remotely....YOU are still moving the car

ODWms | October 4, 2019

How is this a question?

kevin_rf | October 4, 2019

Don't know, did give it a try at lunch. Small, slow parking lot. Other than lining up perpendicular to the curb, it didn't suck. We put the video on the internal work social media platform :-)

https://youtu.be/TLvOmwczcJQ

(No adds, though I am tempted to add pizza coupons. They would be more useful than the reefer codes everyone tries to post.)

Magic 8 Ball | October 4, 2019

Where are reefer codes? I want reefer!

vmulla | October 4, 2019

jjgunn | October 4, 2019
vmulla | October 2, 2019
Let's assume there's an accident while using enhanced summon. Who is the driver of the vehicle for insurance purposes?
-------
If you're pushing & HOLDING the "come to me" button, aren't YOU responsible? Even if you're not in the car.

Even remotely....YOU are still moving the car

=====
@jjgunn,
I would expect that.

However, I'm looking at issues one/two levels deeper. For example: A friend who does not own the car is using the owner's phone to move the car, and he doesn't even have a driver's licence. A child accidentally using a parent's phone to move the car. An owner disowning responsibility and claiming he lost his phone at the time of accident.

As a follow-up question, is there anything in the legal language for smartsummon that the responsibility of the accident will be assigned to the registered owner of the car?

vmulla | October 4, 2019

Oh, and for my own part. I'm risk-averse and I've stopped playing around with smartsummon after a few tries.

andy.connor.e | October 4, 2019

@vmulla

I would think the same consequences would apply if your friend who does not have a license got in your car and crashed it, likewise if a child accidentally threw their car into neutral and the car backed out into a car. The person operating the phone would be considered the driver at the time. I dont see why it would be any different. Damage to property would be done by the person who is moving the car whether they are moving it with a remote device or physically behind the wheel.

kevin_rf | October 4, 2019

Magic, it's madness I tell you, Madness... Oh wait, just realized who I'm replying to. Carry on.

vmulla | October 4, 2019

@andy.connor.e,
Makes sense. I still feel uncomfortable because there is a layer of separation between the automobile and the operator. I guess there is only one way to defeat that uncomfortable feeling - to choose not to use smartsummon.

It's now time to go to my car and check if I can disable that option.

Thanks all for helping me think through what is right for my own circumstances.

CST | October 4, 2019

To simplify, the operator of the car is responsible. Throw out the word "driver" and you'll see it clearly.

andy.connor.e | October 4, 2019

@vmulla

Me too. I'd be more furious if the car's automated system damaged itself rather than me being the one to do it. I can accept my own mistake, but if i hit a button and the car hits something that i wouldnt myself, then i ask myself "why did i even bother not walking to my car". I'd regret everything.

kevin_rf | October 4, 2019

andy.connor.e This reminds me of the whole auto-park with cars wrapping themselves around posts inside parking garage issue some months back. The car was not able to detect the posts when auto-parking. You need to be in full control and have full situational awareness. Otherwise you risk not only running over something/one that the car cannot see, but also it colliding with another vehicle whose nonsensical motion the car can not predict.

I did my test in a small parking lot with no cars moving about it. Even so, someone snuck in and grabbed my parking spot as the car vacated it. I heard from my coworkers they had very confused looks on their collective faces. I will not even consider trying it in my work or grocery store parkinglot. To many people and things moving way to fast.

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