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Level 2 & 3 Charging on Maui

Level 2 & 3 Charging on Maui

The following is a copy of an email in reply to their response to my original letter that I sent to Tesla via their customer survey that is regularly sent to owners. I am posting it here to hopefully get opinions and ideas from other owners (especially owners on Maui/Hawaii):

Thanks for your reply. I'm glad to hear that Tesla is open to continuing the discussion about chargers on Maui.

Before reading the Destination Charging info that you provided, I was under the impression that installations of Destination Chargers (DC) were done at Tesla's expense. Getting property owners to pay for installations and also pay for the cost of electricity is a huge challenge. It’s difficult to envision an island bustling with Teslas without DC. Will the mass of islanders feel confident buying Model 3 in the future knowing there’s a lack of fast-charge options away from their home?

Building a charging network before the release of Model 3 could be the tipping point for Tesla to become the leader of EV sales on Maui. The Leaf is the current leader, and I believe the success of Leafs on Maui is due to the installation of their network of CHAdeMO chargers in advance of Leaf sales. It helped erase the range anxiety from prospective buyers.

Here are my opinions and ideas for brainstorming:

1) A Tesla charging network on an "island" needs to be strategized differently than a charging network on a "continent". I believe the same strategy CANNOT be used on Maui because the placements of chargers were based on answers to questions like "Where do Tesla owners like to visit when they drive out of town?" On Maui, visitors arrive WITHOUT their Tesla. It’s safe to say Teslas on Maui are not from out of town.

With the upcoming release of Model 3 the majority of Teslas will be owned by non-affluent residents (NOT out-of-state visitors). Owners without the ability to drive out of state will not have the need to stop at hotels. For example, an existing DC in Wailea shows up on Tesla’s DC map, but it is basically useless to residents and tourists. That charger, which is located at Four Seasons Wailea is mainly used for Tesla test-drive events.

Local owners will mainly enjoy island drives and visiting malls and eateries. Having the option to charge their EV at their destination will be a great convenience, and sometimes a necessity.

2) Maui owners shouldn’t need to store a CHAdeMO adapter in their trunk. That specialty adapter is nice to have on the mainland because of long distance driving and numerous CHAdeMO stations. On Maui CHAdeMO chargers are off limits to Teslas.

3) I believe a network of DC is necessary for the Tesla Revolution to occur. We need to have an option to fast-charge away from home. Impulsive leisure drives with insane acceleration and setting AC’s on high throughout the cruise are nice, but having to drive home in the middle of an island drive simply to recharge would be very inconvenient. Instead of Destination Chargers is there a possibility to make an exception to install Superchargers on this island -- and make charging available only to owners who pre-pay monthly or annually?

The Tesla Revolution should bring the total number of Teslas over 5000 within 12 to 15 years. With Hawaii having one of the highest energy rates in the nation, could pairing Solar City panels with a Tesla Energy storage system help solve the problem? That marriage, combined with a pool of just 2,500 owners who pay a monthly access fee of $50 could result in annual revenues of $1,500,000 – would that be enough to maintain the system? Tesla chargers cannot accept payments, but maybe this question can lead to a solution: Can the connectors be re-designed to accept payments and be programmed to turn on ONLY by owners who pre-pay?

Please open the attachment showing views of what I believe are the 6 best shopping malls with eateries for installation of fast chargers.

If I'm rambling it’s because I am passionate about Tesla and the need for a solution. My hope is that this conversation will spark ideas from others so maybe Destination Chargers or Superchargers can be paid for by owners and become reality for Teslas in Hawaii!

Best
Eddie

DTsea | August 13, 2015

Maui is small. Why bother charging away from home? From Hana to Lahaina, the farthest two points, is only 72 miles. Why bother with a charging network for a car with 250 mile range on an island that is 72 miles long????

Rocky_H | August 13, 2015

@DTsea, Hey, practical reality should not get in the way of want.

crikescrikes | August 13, 2015

@DTsea

I appreciate your input.

First of all, I can say with certainty that if a Lahaina Tesla owner plans a trip to Hana, leaves with 250 miles, and returns on the same day – upon return the battery would display less than 106 miles. And that’s without venturing through Makawao and cruising to Wailea on the return trip. On that route there are no stretches of level highway where an average speed of 65mph can be maintained to maximize miles/kwh. If that same owner decided to spend the week in Hana……….

Just wondering if you are a Tesla owner. If so, you'd know that the 250 mile range is true only in "perfect" driving conditions and at a steady 65mph, and without using "Insane Mode", and without setting the AC on High, and without the car full of passengers and a full trunk.
I have a difficult time not using the quick acceleration, not keeping AC on high, not using the Pre-Conditioning feature, and not turning on the car's AC from my cellphone app about 5-10 minutes before I approach the car. Those are some of the reasons I purchased the car, so to not use it wouldn't make much sense.

My P85D has changed my views about cars in general -- after owning a Tesla I can't see myself ever buying an ICE car -- Especially not after the Model 3 comes out in 2017.

Sorry for getting sidetracked..........

Back to the reason for my original post, and to answer your questions:
Why bother charging away from home? From Hana to Lahaina, the farthest two points, is only 72 miles. Why bother with a charging network for a car with 250 mile range on an island that is 72 miles long????

It seems logical that there doesn't seem to be a need to charge away from home -- but that's only with normal daily driving activities. And I believe that opinion is only from those who haven't yet purchased a Tesla.

Sometime humans "forget" to do things -- like forget their wallet at home, forget about an appointment, or maybe……forget to plug in their Tesla before going to bed.

The point I'm trying to make is "unexpected things happen" in life, and there are times when a Tesla owner will be lower on energy than expected.

On the mainland there are hundreds of SuperChargers and Tesla Destination Chargers, and lots of level 3 CHAdeMO chargers to recharge away from home. On Maui there is ONLY 1 CHAdeMO charger available to Tesla users - but it is NOT dedicated to Teslas. It is also open to the more than 550 Leaf owners. So in reality – having only that 1 fast-charger is like having none. The "other 9 CHAdeMO fast chargers" on Maui are DEDICATED ONLY TO LEAF OWNERS.

When Tesla owners on Maui are away from home and low on energy we can’t drive to the nearest fast charger because there are none.

Having a Supercharger as a pay-as-you-go option would be a great benefit – I’m not suggesting a “free” Supercharger. I’m just suggesting Tesla consider a Supercharger or Destination Charging station that is only available as “a pay-as-you-go” or as a “pre-paid members only station”……at least to give owners an “option” to be able to charge away from home if the need ever arises.

For now with only 55 Teslas on Maui it’s fine not having a place to charge away from home. But I’m a Tesla fanatic who believes that in 10-15 years this island will be bustling with Teslas (think Model 3’s) and other brands of EV’s – there will be times when a Tesla will be unexpectedly low on energy – and that “1 fast charger” will be 30 miles away with a waiting line…..or Out-of-Service.

Millions of visitors travel to Maui and I believe that it’s just a matter of time before Model 3’s will be available at car rental agencies. It would be a great way for Tesla to get people familiar with EV’s (without advertising). But that strategy would only work if a network of fast chargers were available to make the EV experience enjoyable – can you imagine not having any fast chargers on the island for 2 weeks of scenic driving??

DTsea | August 13, 2015

Well, i have 45000 miles on my model S, crike.

It gets 250 Wh/mi at 40 mph. So the kahului to hana route will take less rated miles than actual miles. 106 miles range after a round trip means no need to charge on the way. Makawao is great but only what, 8 miles up from kahului? And you get regen on the way back down.

crikescrikes | August 13, 2015

@DTsea

You're right.

The point I'm trying to make is that it would be nice to have a "pay" option to charge away from home -- as a back-up in case of unexpected situations. Your examples are correct if everything went perfect.

I personally haven't had the need yet, but I can think of situations where, when Maui has several hundred Teslas, someone will have the need and would be willing to PAY for a Fast Charge.

Don't you agree that having choices are good? Imagine if an owner has a problem with their charger at home? Wouldn't it be nice to have an option to fast charge elsewhere - even if it meant having to pay??

Rocky_H | August 13, 2015

@crikescrikes, I saw in another thread that you said you are a new owner. I think you will get used to not having this worry so much after a while.

Quote: "The point I'm trying to make is that it would be nice to have a "pay" option to charge away from home -- as a back-up in case of unexpected situations."

I just checked Plugshare.com and see 31 charging points available on that island, not counting shared owners' chargers, so there are some options. Many of them are at hotels, but many hotels will allow people to charge either for a fee or for being customers eating at their restaurant.

Quote: "Your examples are correct if everything went perfect."

This is not banking on perfect. 250 miles on a 72 mile island gives a LOT of margin for much less than perfect. You are still in the nervous phase because you are new to the car.

Quote: " If that same owner decided to spend the week in Hana……… can you imagine not having any fast chargers on the island for 2 weeks of scenic driving??"

I can easily imagine, and it is really easy to deal with. One week = 7 nights of charging. 2 weeks = 14 nights of charging. You still have this filling station mentality that a fast charger is the only way to recharge the car. If you have an electric car and are visiting some place and stay in a hotel, you pick a hotel that can charge the car, and plenty of them do have charging.

Quote: "It seems logical that there doesn't seem to be a need to charge away from home -- but that's only with normal daily driving activities. And I believe that opinion is only from those who haven't yet purchased a Tesla."

It's actually the reverse of that in my experience. People who don't have electric cars ask me about where I find charging places for it in town. It's a revelation to them that I tell them I have never needed to look for any charging around town because I just fill up at home, and it's plenty.

Quote: "Sometime humans "forget" to do things -- like forget their wallet at home, forget about an appointment, or maybe……forget to plug in their Tesla before going to bed."

"The point I'm trying to make is "unexpected things happen" in life, and there are times when a Tesla owner will be lower on energy than expected."

There are two things going on in these paragraphs. The first thing is this feeling of being exempt from consequences. If you forget to do something, then that means that you have problems and difficulties from that. That's life, and that happens to all of us. If I forget to turn on the alarm clock the night before, it's my fault, and I may have a problem. If I forgot to pick up half and half last night at the store, I don't have it for my coffee the next morning. It's not Tesla's job to spend $150,000 to build a Supercharger to pick up people's slack for forgetting to charge. Besides, with as small as the island is, you can go a day or two without charging, and it's generally not going to be a problem.

The other thing is something I have seen from non-owners or new owners where they have this hypothetical worry that they will suddenly, surprisingly, "find themselves" low on power somewhere. The car gives an amazing level of detailed feedback and information, so you know how you are doing and how much charge and range you have. You do not suddenly find yourself low, unless you haven't been paying any attention. You will find as you use the car more, that you will know where you can go and how much you will have. And if you are planning a longer drive, you can set your charge for a bit more that night.

Bettyfretz | August 13, 2015

Rocky_H
+100

crikescrikes | August 13, 2015

@Rocky_H

Thanks for your input. You're right about the availability of level 1 and level 2 chargers on the island. And I appreciate your reply. I must say that maybe I wasn't clear in my original post. I don't expect Tesla to build a SuperCharger for FREE CHARGING on Maui. My suggestion was for them to consider a self-sustaining Fast-Charger in selected areas.

FYI, many of the existing charges on Maui are a joke for Teslas, or simply very inconvenient:

*They are often in use by other brand EV's

*Charge at barely 10 miles per hours for $2.20/hr, some for $5/hr

*The ones at hotels are free if you have patience for 10mph charging and you're willing to pay $30 for all day parking.

*Or free if you you're willing to pay $60 for dinner (Four Seasons, Grand Wailea, Sheraton) -- and after dinner you'd have 10 more miles on your battery.

It seems you've never been to Hana, or you didn't take notice of the availability of electrical outlets and hotels in that town. Your calculations for Hana looks good on paper, but I challenge you to go to Hana with a Tesla as a visitor and see how convenient your 2 week stay would be. I'm willing to bet that during your 2 week stay you'd be tempted to pay for a Fast-Charge if one was available in Hana.

It seems as though you have difficulty envisioning the future after a Tesla or EV Revolution -- where EV's will outnumber ICE vehicles, and owners will have a need or desire to charge faster than 10mph AWAY FROM HOME.

And no, I'm not in the nervous phase. I've never had the need to charge away from home. My wall charger at home fills at 52(?) mph and I've been satisfied.

The Tesla Revolution is happening as we speak, and I believe Pay-to-use-Tesla-Fast-Chargers (self-sustaining) will one day be in available in several locations around Maui -- and in select areas throughout the United States and other countries. Musk's belief is that EV's will become the majority of vehicles within 2(?) decades. At that point Maui car rental agencies will offer Teslas -- When that time comes, where would convenient charging be done as tourists enjoy their 2 week sightseeing vacation?

To get my point across, how about rephrasing my question:

Can anyone think of situations where a Tesla driver would want/or need a choice to Fast-Charge (away from home)--and they're willing to pay to do so? If there was a contest to come up with 10 sensible situations, would anyone be able to think of any if the prize was a free Tesla?

As I read other "Charging related" posts on the Forums, it seems that there are areas in the mainland that owners are frustrated about the lack of fast-chargers away from home. It seems that many owners on the forum would love to have a CHOICE to Fast-Charge even if it required a paid membership.

Anyway, I appreciate your reply but I'm not going to try and convince everyone -- I was just attempting to plant a seed at the Tesla Destination Charging department and give them some food for thought.

I'm not targeting this to you, but I just want share a favorite quote of mine: "A person convinced against their will is of the same opinion still."

You post is excellent for promoting/defending Teslas. Look me up on your next trip to Maui.

Keep in mind that my post wasn't to get Tesla to spend $150k to build a Supercharger for Maui owners to get free charging. It was simply to get them to GIVE OWNERS A CHOICE.

johnse | August 13, 2015

@crikes
I, too, believe that at some point Tesla will be making fast charging available at a fee for all comers, though that's not a popular belief on the forum.

Hawaii is a very different environment from the mainland. The primary use case Tesla sees for Superchargers is supporting long distance travel--not a need on the islands.

Destination chargers, on the other hand, are a quite reasonable desire and the cost of electricity on the islands is, I understand, quite high compared with other states. I would expect that there will be more CHAdeMO and other such options being deployed as EVs become more popular.

grega | August 13, 2015

Hi Crikes,
My first thought is.. $150k, pay off in 20 years... about $300/week.

Can you get 10 people to do a supercharge a day for $5? (And another 10 the next day, etc etc)

How sure are you... given that most owners will have a full battery in the morning and charge at night. If there were 1000 Teslas, and 200 people forgot to charge once a year AND their charge didn't last the whole 2 days... you'd only cover 20 days.

(That doesn't include the electricity cost either)

Not debating that it would be nice, just debating that it would work as pay-per-use. Better for short range cars where people find themselves in trouble.

crikescrikes | August 13, 2015

@ johnse,

I, too, believe that at some point Tesla will be making fast charging available at a fee for all comers, though that's not a popular belief on the forum.

I think that's because "When most people look into the future, they only see the present".

For the time being the current charging network works fine....but not when 500,000 Model 3's start rolling out of the factory in 2020 and beyond.

After owning a Tesla, I can easily see that of the 100 million new cars manufactured worldwide every year -- a majority of them will be EV's in 2 decades. I also believe that in the future many of today's naysayers (of fast-charging for a fee) will be paying to charge -- maybe when they rent a Tesla on Maui for their 2 week vacation.

Nicola Tesla actually saw the future. Too bad no one else in that era did.

Timo | August 13, 2015

It's Nikola. With K not C.

crikescrikes | August 14, 2015

@Timo

Thanks.

doubeld | August 14, 2015

Crikes, as a current ICE owner at the present, I think I resonate with what you are saying.
If, say within 3 years time (very likely) I visit Maui and have the chance to rent a Model 3/S, that's probably what I'd go for. I will book airfare, hotel and possibly a car rental ahead of time. I would not expect any reasonably-priced hotel to have a good charging spot. However...

I don't want to *think* about having a place to charge.
I would expect one to be available at any time I choose, in a variety of convenient places.
I would expect to have to pay a reasonable $/kWh rate to charge.
I would not expect a SuperCharger, but that would be fantastic.
I would expect to be able to charge with an HPWC or similar.

Rocky_H | August 14, 2015

@crikescrikes
Quote: “I don't expect Tesla to build a SuperCharger for FREE CHARGING on Maui. My suggestion was for them to consider a self-sustaining Fast-Charger in selected areas.”
--------------------------------------
That isn’t a thing. As someone else pointed out, it could never possibly be self-sustaining in cost.

With most of the rest of this message you seem to have not gotten the main point that I repeatedly made. You are still couching all of this in terms of waiting around to charge during the day. That is not the goal. On this two week stay that you are proposing, you should be charging at night, while you sleep for several hours. Then, it’s not slow, and it’s not inconvenient. This point addresses all of your questions and concerns that you are bringing up.

Quote: “I challenge you to go to Hana with a Tesla as a visitor and see how convenient your 2 week stay would be”
--------------------------------------
Hana is interesting that they don’t have any charging listed on Plugshare. That might be worth calling a couple of the hotels and suggesting that they have the opportunity to attract all of the electric car business in town if they would offer some kind of charging access. That has worked well in some other places when they find out that offering charging can be pretty cheap and attracts customers. Some hotels just don’t know of the need if no one tells them about it. There was a hotel near me that when a Tesla owner talked to them about charging, they installed a 14-50 outlet that same day.

Quote: “owners will have a need or desire to charge faster than 10mph AWAY FROM HOME.”
--------------------------------------
There is no “away from home/hotel” on an island that small.

Quote: “At that point Maui car rental agencies will offer Teslas -- When that time comes, where would convenient charging be done as tourists enjoy their 2 week sightseeing vacation?”
--------------------------------------
They would be staying at hotels, where they would ask the hotel to reserve one of the charging spots for them, and they would charge at night while they sleep.

Quote: “Can anyone think of situations where a Tesla driver would want/or need a choice to Fast-Charge (away from home)--and they're willing to pay to do so?”
--------------------------------------
Yes, when someone is traveling on a trip of about 400+ miles, they would probably want that. On that island, that situation doesn’t exist, because ocean.

Quote: “As I read other "Charging related" posts on the Forums, it seems that there are areas in the mainland that owners are frustrated about the lack of fast-chargers away from home.”
--------------------------------------
Yes, because you can get hundreds of miles from home on the mainland. You can’t do that on that small island.

Quote: “Keep in mind that my post wasn't to get Tesla to spend $150k to build a Supercharger for Maui owners to get free charging. It was simply to get them to GIVE OWNERS A CHOICE.”
--------------------------------------
But who is paying for that choice that is being offered? You said it should be pay for use, but since it would hardly be used, Tesla would be spending $150K to give almost free charging instead of completely free charging. So it looks non-free to the people using it, but since it doesn’t come close to paying for the station, it’s almost the same to Tesla.

crikescrikes | August 14, 2015

@Rocky_H

It's good to hear both sides of the argument. You brought up good points. On my next trip to Hana I'll go talk to a few of the hotels about installing EV chargers. I guess I'm a new owner who just needs to learn more about Teslas and charging. Have a nice day. Which state are you in?

In my opinion, this thread has similarities to how naysayers responded when Elon Musk first believed in the idea of 100% electric cars built from the ground up.

Rocky_H | August 14, 2015

I'm sorry if I've been a bit stubborn or harsh. Some of my perspective may come from my location and ownership time. I live in Boise, Idaho, and I have had my Model S for almost a year and a half now. For almost all of that time, Superchargers were at least 300 miles away from me until the last couple of months, so I've been very used to getting by fine in the 100-200 mile range with no fast charging available. In that time, I did do a 600 mile round trip and a 680 mile round trip with no fast charging, and it worked OK, although was not ideal.

So with these experiences, I am not very understanding of this thought that Supercharging is so needed in a small contained area where you can't get more than 70 miles from anywhere.

johnse | August 14, 2015

I presume the hotels in Hana have electricity. I suspect if you called and asked them, they would be able to make a 110V outlet available to you. If you are staying there for an extended period, you'll have plenty of time to top up using the 110V charger.

It sounds like a trip out and back would not be a problem for a Tesla--though any other EV would have concerns. Offering at least a Level 2 charger would be a nice amenity for the hotels to offer and are not particularly expensive to install.

crikescrikes | August 14, 2015

@Rocky_H

No apology needed. Forums are where seeds are planted and people voice and defend their opinions -- Many seeds never see the light of day, but a few stay dormant for decades because its time has not yet arrived (Nikola Tesla). Planting enough seeds increase the chance that some of the dormant seeds will continue to be watered by someone.......until an Elon Musk is born.

You've defended your position well.
But like you I'm stubborn, and I'm of the same opinion still.

And it's good to know that Tesla is watering seeds with hopes that a solution to concerns about future charging can be found by implementing pay-as-you-go systems.

Maybe such a system could work for the millions of Teslas in the future. Maybe they'll name the network "FastCharger" and offer it to owners of future Models of Teslas who are not offered "free charging for life" at SuperChargers. (With different names it can't be confused)

And maybe they'll do a pilot project on Maui to spur EV rentals and EV ownership? They could build a network of Fastchargers with SolarCity panels and offer charging at rates lower than the 38 cents per kwh that residents currently pay on Maui (vs 8 cents/kwh in Idaho). Maybe at lower rates charging at a location away from home would make sense?

Sorry, I'm just enjoying my dream.

On a different note -- about 7 or 8 years ago we visited Boise and McCall an experienced a snow/ice carving competition. It was a very memorable vacation for our family and we met some very nice people and our two daughters experience the most snow ever.

ian t.wa.us | August 14, 2015

+1 Rocky_H. Well said.

DTsea | August 14, 2015

What you are missing crikes is that the supercharger cost is mostly capital. The electricity part is trivial in most places. So a self sustaining supercharger would have to charge a lot. If used twice a day, assuming three year payback, capital charge alone is $50k/750 uses or $67 per use. Spread over a 40 kwh charge, that's $1.50/kwh before paying for the power. Or the parking spot. Or maintenance.

That's why lightly used fast chargers cant make money on pay per kwh basis.

Even if used 10 times as much, with hawaiian power rates you would pay at least $.5-.6 per kwh and people would complain its a ripoff. Even the much less expensive (also slower and less robust) chademo chargers get this problem.

If you believe in this model, set up a pay for use chademo charger in kahului, kihei, lahaina, and hana. Permanently attach tesla chademo adapter. See how much you have to charge to break even.

Rocky_H | August 14, 2015

@crikescrikes, Well done, as well, sir. We've both presented and explained, and although we still totally disagree, it was respectfully done.

Oh yeah, McCall Winter Carnival has those ice sculptures. I actually have lived here 15 years now and never gone to it. I've been up to McCall a few times, but not during the Carnival. The Shore Lodge in McCall was actually the place that I was referring to about the hotel that installed the 14-50 outlet when the guest was there.

crikescrikes | September 11, 2017

For those who didn't think Tesla would ever put a SuperCharger on Maui, after many emails and requests, looks like they're considering it!!

Enter "Maui, HI" on this "find a supercharger" page and 2 in Hawaii shows up!!

https://www.tesla.com/supercharger

:-)

david.fauvre | August 1, 2019

Just moved to Maui, live in Paia, and just took delivery of a new Tesla Model 3. 1. The trickle charger on my home outlet only chargers at 1MPH, so it's unusable. Any idea why it's so slow? 2. Need recommendations on charging options. I've been going to Target and paying for their EV charger and leaving the car overnight. This is way too expensive. 3. Need recommendation on electrician who can install a charger in my home ASAP,. The Tesla app does not show anyone. Thank you!

Yodrak. | August 1, 2019

1. because, as you write, it's effectively a "trickle charger". Is it a 120 volt, 20 amp, circuit?
2. buy an EVSE and have an electrician install a 240 volt, 50 amp or greater, circuit - depending on the capability of the EVSE you bought.
3. Mr. Google can be a great help in finding an electrician in your area who can install an appropriate outlet and circuit.

TeslaTap.com | August 2, 2019

@david - This guide may be helpful to understand many options available: https://teslatap.com/articles/tesla-model-3-home-charging-guide/