Tesla and YOU are seriously in the business of selling ICE cars. Are you seriously green?

Tesla and YOU are seriously in the business of selling ICE cars. Are you seriously green?

You may think you are saving the planet by driving an EV, not drinking soda, not smoking
BUT when you tradein your ICE for a nice new EV, what happens?

Your sweet old ICE ride just gets shared around more and more people for the next 19 years (or so).
It changes owners, 5? times, has 100 drivers...

Anyone really serious, with gobs of money, would kill the old car, stop the cycle.
Most Tesla owners are copping a govt rebate to buy EV. Why not apply this to killing off the old ICE?

For those without money...well you could at least join the discussion.

Otherwise, how do you think you are contributing to sustainable stuff?
Kill off the monsters, or dont claim the green. Greenbacks, and green attitude.Both.

To arrest ICE, you have to stop ICE.

carlk | October 19, 2018

Ill logic. It's not like they are stopping making new ICE cars. Someone who wants an ICE will get an ICE. The result would be just a bit different mix of new ones and older ones.

jesus | October 19, 2018

Oh Christ :(

Ross1 | October 19, 2018

Well they are stopping making ICE cars.
Sales of other makes are down where Tesla is up.

Sleepydoc1 | October 19, 2018

In 5-10 years when used model 3s start hitting the resale market en mass, is when that ICE continuation cycle will break down hard. Not completely, since someone will always need a cheap car. Hopefully, there will be better support infrastructure and education that the buyers of cheaper used cars will realize used EVs costs almost nothing beyond the purchase price, except registration and insurance.

jordanrichard | October 19, 2018

Your assumption is that everyone that buys an EV is doing it for the "green factor".

Earl and Nagin ... | October 19, 2018

Sure, a diehard could probably take a sledgehammer and a drill bit to fully destroy an ICE car to ensure that no part is still usable, then send it to the recycler but that, IMHO, is probably more than necessary.
Remember, though: Most of the pollution, carbon, and other bad stuff from a car comes from manufacturing it, not fueling it.
All of the energy needed to build a new car would happen instead of that old one for the person who wouldn't be buying the old ICE.
This kind of mind exercise is good just as a sanity (or insanity) check. Thanks Ross1.

DTsea | October 19, 2018

Earl and Nagin- spot on.

DTsea | October 19, 2018

Earl and Nagin- spot on.

DTsea | October 19, 2018

sorry about the double post

boodasmurph | October 19, 2018

I would hazard a guess that MOST EV buyers are NOT buying for the "green factor".

BTW Ross1, what did YOU and your "holier than thou" attitude do with your ICE?

sosmerc | October 19, 2018

Increasing numbers of EV's are great in that they are displacing ICE where it works. It's a small piece of the puzzle in reducing pollutants and cleaning up the environment. But we need to see change in many more areas. Just think about what happens everytime an airliner takes off. Think about grounding all aircraft that are powered by fossil fuels...not going to happen. BUT, money IS being spent trying to improve the carbon footprint of all our sources of transportation and production. Governments need to support and subsidize the research and provide real leadership by looking at how they could begin to clean up their own act by upgrading to a cleaner military and other governmental services that require transportation.

Yodrak. | October 19, 2018

"how do you think you are contributing to sustainable stuff?"

I did not trade my 13 year old, 227,000 mile ice. I was offered so little that it has more value to me for carrying large or dirty items that I couldn't or wouldn't put in my shiny, clean, new Tesla. Had I traded it in it would have been used for parts to keep dozens of other ICEVs on the road.

In the four months that I've had my Model S I've put 100 miles on the ICE, most of the time just moving it in and out of the driveway to unblock my two EVs, which I bought because electricity is cheaper than gasoline.

gmr6415 | October 19, 2018

My ICE was a hybrid. I hope it does get used for another 10 years.

gmr6415 | October 19, 2018

@Ross1, It's incremental. 100% or nothing arguments are ridiculous.

SCCRENDO | October 20, 2018

Agreed. A lot of deniers use the pretext that switching to EVs will not 100% remove your carbon footprint so why should they switch. @Ross. In the past you have made excuses for not buying a Tesla. So for the record do you even own a Tesla, another EV or even a hybrid?

jackymalvirro | October 20, 2018

Expanding quantities of EV's are incredible in that they are dislodging ICE where it works. It's a little bit of the riddle in diminishing toxins and tidying up nature. Be that as it may, we have to see change in numerous more territories. Simply consider what happens everytime an aircraft takes off. Consider establishing all air ship that are controlled by fossil fuels...not going to occur. Be that as it may, cash IS being spent attempting to enhance the carbon impression of every one of our wellsprings of transportation and generation. | October 20, 2018

Every driver that switches to an EV displaces one ICE. Some owners are buying their first car, so nothing is displaced there.

Now for a driver that buys an EV and dumps the ICE, some other owner buys that ICE and likely gets rid of their even older ICE. Going down the chain, the oldest and most polluting vehicles are scrapped. It doesn't happen instantly, but it does occur.

Now some EV buyers have that old crappy ICE car that is on its last legs. The EV purchase will push that car to the scrap yard directly - no need to sell it to another driver.

So each EV actually contributes far more to reducing pollution than you might expect by directly or indirectly getting rid of those old high-pollution, low MPG vehicles.

Mike83 | October 20, 2018

Akon is one who had something like 22 cars including Porsche, Lamborghini, etc. Now he owns 4 Teslas.
We sold our Prius when we got our second Tesla.
The person who bought our Prius now gets 45 mpg vs. 20 in his truck. Less gas at least. The transition seems to be incresing.

Ross1 | October 21, 2018

@SCCR: off topic, this is about the ineffectiveness of buying an EV unless you destroy your old ICE at the same time.

For the record: I have installed one of the first Tesla supplied Destination Chargers at my Airbnb, only been used once so you can see its silly to buy an EV here until there is infrastructure. Also no EV rebates. HM of you would have an EV if there was no rebate?
Biggest of all, what if I need rivets, and I have a one-car policy?

Just been learning to ride my EV: Kiwano K01. See the Youtubes. | October 21, 2018

@Ross - "...only been used once so you can see it's silly to buy an EV here until there is infrastructure".

Not sure where you are, but that doesn't make much sense. Likely there is so much infrastructure (at least for Teslas) that most owners on trips will stop at a Supercharger rather than a slow charger.

Reasons for buying an EV over an ICE car are extensive beyond rebates:
1) Far lower fueling costs
2) Ability to generate your own fuel (via Solar)
3) No pollution
4) No concerns about dying from CO2 poisoning (in your house or while driving that old ICE rustbucket)
5) Lower maintenance costs
6) No need to visit gas stations and breath carsongentic fueling fumes
7) No need to pump gas in horrible weather (high heat/humidity, rain, snow, etc.)
8) No need to deal with quarterly oil and filter changes
9) Smooth performance
10) Fantastic acceleration

You're Kiwano is great and while not ideal for passengers or longer trips, is better than hopping in some ICE mess for short trips.

Ross1 | October 21, 2018

@ Teslatap:
Tasmania, Australia: no superchargers, none likely.

The Kiwano is good to carry 250 lbs, lol. And a 4 x 8 possibly.

arianapham | October 21, 2018

Wonderful article, thanks for putting this together.

dmm1240 | October 22, 2018

Dear Ross 1:

Were you guys stoned when you had your today’s topics meeting at the troll farm? As others aptly point out, logic fails you on your traipse through the lifecycle of an ICE vehicle so no need to go into that.

CO2 in soda pop? Really? The CO2 mixed into sodas is taken from the existing air. There is no CO2 manufacturing facility that makes new CO2 to spiff up your Coca-Cola. The CO2 in soda is carbon neutral.

There are a plethora of excellent reasons not to smoke, seriously adding to air pollution is not one. Only 14% of Americans smoke any more so it’s not much of an issue even if what you claim were true, which it isn’t. You need much better material than this to prove hypocrisy.

You paid trolls must be reaching the bottom of the barrel if this is the best you can come up with any more. Or, lay off the weed during working hours. Stoner ideas never seem quite as brilliant after you come down.

Ross1 | October 22, 2018

Stoner ideas never seem quite as brilliant after you come down.

I guess you would know.

Yodrak. | October 22, 2018

"HM of you would have an EV if there was no rebate?"

My hand is raised. I got no rebate for my first EV, but I did get it for my Tesla.

NKYTA | October 23, 2018

Reserved 3.6 years before purchase.

Ya, didn't know nor care about "rebate", "tax credit", whatever.

RanjitC | October 23, 2018

Reserved 5.1 years before purchase. Had no idea about tax credit. Got solar panels 2 years before I got the P85 in 2012. Did get a rebate/tax credit for both but that was not what made me do it.

Uncle Paul | October 25, 2018

This world wide eco thing is something I can still get my arms around. 3rd world economies are where most of the pollution is coming from, yet most of the pressure seems to get the already pretty clean 1st world to get even cleaner. Marginal world wide effect.

Where I see the EV revolution having the greatest payoff is taking the pollution load off our congested and polluted cities. This is were the pollution is causing the greatest health damage. Citizens are bombarded with foul air and water at every turn.

Driving an EV car, truck or buss in the city contributes an immediate benefit to those breathing the noxious exhausts.

I hate driving behind a gas or diesel truck or bus, belching out pollution, which is immediately taken into my lungs. The HEPA filtered Tesla is a great feature for city dwellers.

SCCRENDO | October 25, 2018

Hey Uncle. We have plenty of work to do in the 1st world particularly with a criminal president who continues to fight climate change and sabotage all efforts. In addition we need to set an example to the world. And indeed we were trying to help the third world by sticking with the Paris accords and help the third world achieve their goals. But of course this kind of logic escapes selfish climate change deniers like yourself who don't give a shit about the planet.

kichwas | October 25, 2018

If I don’t smoke crack, somebody else gonna smoke all the crack. I better go get me some rocks.

Yeah that is one way to look at it.

Another way to look at it is that I am reducing the demand.. eventually the supplier will stopping cooking up crack...

As for those used ICE cars, the plan is to make them a last or near last generation.

Right now your trade in goes back on the road. A few years from now demand for ICE cars will be down and your trade in will get melted down to make a new EV...

Uncle Paul | October 25, 2018

Ultimate solution would be super heavy taxes of fuels that pollute. Pre charge users for the expenses of cleaning up the pollution as they pollute.

This would force people to restrict their use of polluting fuels.

It may also cause revolts in the streets.

I am not a climate change denier...I am a pragmatist.

People that wish to make environmental changes should start with their personal situation. Live in the smallest apartment possible, do not use motorized transportation unless urgent. (kind of a Walden thing). Drive the smallest, least pollluting vehicle possible. Bicycles are fantastic.
Do not fly in planes, travel in boats, use AC or heat except for health reasons. Work for an environmentally considerate company if at all. Do not use a smart phone (search is the largest user of electricity). Do not use TV or power tools. Start at home...don't be a denier.

SCCRENDO | October 25, 2018

Uncle you are correct that we should decrease our own pollution and carbon footprint as mush as possible. And yes general pollution is a local issue. But greenhouse gases are universal. Whether the greenhouse gases come from me, you or India the increase in greenhouse gases impacts the whole planet. So indeed for the sake of the planet and our grandchildren we do need to force people to decrease polluting fuels. And if you do not understand this you are a denier not a pragmatist

nwfan | October 25, 2018

Instead the solution is to tax Tesla and other EV's above and beyond ICE fuel tax.
Pull incentives and tax heavily all those left wing Tesla owners (45 and R's solution).

Got to keep gas below 2.50 a gal. Regardless of impact on environment and infrastructure.
We need the 35k Model 3 to push the transition along.

Al1 | October 26, 2018

Use car sales don't help ICE makers sell new ones. They may go out of business regardless of how many used ICE cars were sold.

Al1 | October 26, 2018

I wonder if I should start shorting ICE car makers. Don't have much money to invest and all I could I have been investing long on Tesla. But as Tesla will become more expensive, buying new shares could be more costly.

Ross1 | October 27, 2018

.....@ and your trade in will get melted down to make a new EV...

or diet coke cans.
Do you know where your recycled metal actually goes?
Hasn't China stopped accepting recycled waste? | October 28, 2018

@Ross I think China still accepts metal waste - still quite valuable and creates a lot less pollution that mining/refining from the earth. It's likely worth enough that it is recycled locally and not shipped to China.

Problem is with paper and plastic waste, which is harder to recycle profitably. Now a recycled car does some plastics, so I don't know how that is handled.