Forums

60D owners: any battery degradation?

60D owners: any battery degradation?

Given that the 60D battery is really 75Kwh, should I expect no long term battery degradation?
Have any 60D owners seen any degradation at all? So far I can consistently charge to 199 rated miles, but the car is giving me a warning that this could affect the longevity of the battery. I'm somewhat uneasy about ignoring this warning.

I would hope that any degradation on the battery would be over 60Kwh anyway so it wouldn't affect me in practice. Is that reasonable?

poloX | January 15, 2017

There is no such thing that has no long term degradation.

jRoGville | January 15, 2017

I think you're getting that message because the software thinks you have a 60kwh battery. And I also think that the degradation will tick off from the actual full size of the battery. Showing you degradation from the 60kwh capacity would be a fiction to be consistent with the lower capacity. I think that would be a bridge too far for Tesla.

poloX | January 15, 2017

Or the message is programed generically.

jmh35 | January 15, 2017

I have a 60d took delivery in late September.. I charge to 100% 3 to 4 days a week and 90% other days..

100% is 201 miles 90% is 181 miles.

I have almost 6k nearly free total miles at this point no real change from day of delivery..

MXBlack | January 15, 2017

I have a 60D and used to be able to charge to 201 miles. Now I'm only getting 198 miles when charging to 100%. I noticed this right after I got the update with the Easter Egg show so hopefully it is just a glitch in the software that is causing this. My car is at the SC now so I can't test to see if the recent update gets me back to 201 miles or not.

Triggerplz | January 16, 2017

Will 3 miles really make a difference :-)

elguapo | January 16, 2017

@dtv425 In cold weather, that max range number will come down. I am not sure exactly why, but it's been happening to my s for years and it goes back up in Spring, Summer and Fall.

psusi | January 16, 2017

FYI, the battery gas gauge can't tell it has lost capacity unless you charge it up to 100%, then discharge it to close to zero ( usually 3% to 7% ), and then it has had a chance to measure how much power actually came out of the cell.

MXBlack | January 16, 2017

@elguapo, @psusi, thanks, good to know.

Model_D | January 16, 2017

It is simple science. The battery has to heat itself if it is too cold outside. This requires energy from the battery. It estimates the energy that would take and reduces the range accordingly.

mvprice4 | January 20, 2017

I just read a forum from the model S stating that tesla has lowered the cost to upgrade the 60D to 75D from $10,000 to $7,000 is that true and if so whatz up with the model X when I look at my account it's still asking me fo 10k , I've also read that it's not worth it to increase the battery size . Any input???

bward76 | January 20, 2017

Try checking your mile capacity right after reaching 100% charge. Should be 201 miles. Been that way for my 60d since September.

bward76 | January 20, 2017

Try checking your mile capacity right after reaching 100% charge. Should be 201 miles. Been that way for my 60d since September.

jRoGville | January 21, 2017

•• mvprice4 | January 20, 2017
I just read a forum from the model S stating that tesla has lowered the cost to upgrade the 60D to 75D from $10,000 to $7,000 is that true and if so whatz up with the model X when I look at my account it's still asking me fo 10k , I've also read that it's not worth it to increase the battery size . Any input??? ••

I think they offered the $2,000 lower price to upgrade to the people that paid $2,000 more for the 60 and 60D when the price went up at the end of November. Don't think they've offered that discount to anyone else.

ken | January 21, 2017

I have 90D and charge 100% daily, now at 38k miles, i lost 10 miles on full charge.

ken

mvprice4 | January 21, 2017

Ok thanks for the info I'm still undecided on the upgrade 10,000 for approx 37 additional miles and a slower charge when reaching 100 percent what do you think

poloX | January 22, 2017

So this depends on how the S/W limits the 75kwh battery to 60. If it simply sets it at 60kwh, then you will get 60kwh even when the battery degrade from 75 to 70 or 68 after 10 or 15 years. But if it limits by %, then you will be degraded as the physical 75kwh batt is degraded too. Right? Will find out in 5 yo 10 years from now?

burdogg | January 22, 2017

mvprice4 - to me the only reason to upgrade is if you NEED the miles. If you are doing just fine with the range you have, then I see no reason to be upgrading. :) If you find you are always pushing the limits, or feel like trips are taking extra long because you just are worried about not having enough range, then upgrade. At least that is how I see it right this second, but I don't know all your situations or circumstances :)

poloX | January 22, 2017

Agree with burdogg, plus, $9,500 for 37 miles....

mvprice4 | January 22, 2017

Thanks for the input I'm not having problems with my daily usage but when I take a road trip I feel a little uneasy, sometime finding a super charger in route can be a challenge ,I looking into a membership with the blink app. To help easy that tension

jRoGville | January 22, 2017

mvprice4, I've read that the blink sources are very expensive. You should take a look at the PlugShare.com app

poloX, what do you mean by $9,500 for 37 miles?

jRoGville | January 22, 2017

Sorry, popX, just realized the name of this thread. Reading too many posts lately.

poloX | January 23, 2017

Yeah, 9.5K is the cost to upgrade the 60D to 75D.

Keep in mind that the number of super charger stations will also increase. Today, they spread out about 150miles apart. In the future, maybe one every 50 miles? It's just the matter of time before we get there. Right? There is only one direction for them and that is to grow. Of course, the number of cars will also increase. Good luck finding a super charger lot when the M3 is out...until the number of stations can ...catch up.

MXBlack | March 16, 2017

When charging my Model X 60D to 100%, I will now only get 196 miles. It used to be 201 miles back in September, then 198 miles in January, and now 196. It has been in the high 70s to low 80s here in SoCal so outdoor temperature is not an issue. Does this means always charging to 100% lowers the maximum charging mileage of the 60D artificially (because it is not supposed to due to it having a 75Kwh battery)? Could this be a software thing in order to persuade us to upgrade to the 75Kwh battery? Does anyone else getting 196 miles or lower on maximum charge?

Leli001 | March 17, 2017

I have set my X60D to charge 100% since I picked it up on Dec. 3. Even the DS mentioned I can do this since 60 is already 80% of 75 and just ignore the warning message as it is generic in all Teslas.

A full charge would range anywhere from 96% to 100%. No rhyme or reason that I have picked up on as to why it varies after every charge.

It may be that it charges to 100% every time and then it just sits there off charge and the phantom loads pull a couple of percent overnight. By the time I get to it the next morning it may be 99% or 97% or 100% or whatever.

Someone on the forum has mentioned that it will start the charge again after it loses 3%, otherwise it is not pulling any power from the outlet after the pack is fully charged. This makes sense as I do have an energy meter monitoring just my 14-50 outlet and after the car is fully charged, the outlet only consumes 3W on only one of the hot legs. This 3W is most likely the controller inside the mobile connector which may still maintain communication with the car.

I'm sure there is something to do with the battery chemistry at varying ambient temperatures, charge speed, software limiting to 60kWh, etc. that may affect the charge level too at any given time.

In summary, I don't believe this to be battery degradation, just varying full charge behavior due to all of the above variables.

MXBlack | March 19, 2017

I was looking at the Model S forum on this same issue and interestingly enough, a couple of people confirmed their Tesla rep. told them that 20% of the battery cells are locked and not being used at all unless one upgrades to the 75 Kwh battery. I believe this is why after 6 months of always charging my X 60D to 100%, I'm already getting my full charge reduced from 201 miles to 196 miles. There are many Tesla rep. (including mine) that said charging to 100% will not cause any battery degradation but I believe they are wrong due to the reason above. I'm going to reduce my charging limit to 90% from now on since a 2% battery degradation in just 6 months (actually in just 4 months since my car was in the shop for 2 months) is just too much for me.

Model_D | March 20, 2017

I doubt the cells are locked. The charging rate at supercharge stations would not be so high for 90-100% range.

Redmiata98 | March 20, 2017

Are they discontinuing the 60 option for the X in April along with the S?

DaddyP713 | March 20, 2017

The 60 option is no longer available on the X ordering page. I think they took that down a while back...

Leli001 | March 20, 2017

@Dwepilot, my thoughts exactly. Using the supercharger, it will charge at almost full speed up to 99% and then slow to 100% the last minute.

@dtv425, some Tesla reps. choose to say 20% of the modules are locked because it is just easier to explain and understand but there is no way to design a pack that way without adding unnecessary complexity. The software just stops charging when it 'sees' 60kWh of capacity and that's it. My post above puts your 'degradation' into perspective.

This article (http://insideevs.com/200000-miles-tesla-model-s-experienced-6-battery-de...) from insideEVs is about a 6% degradation on a 200,000 mile Model S.

@Redmiata/DaddyP713, I ordered my MX60D in September and the 60D option for the Model X was then discontinued in October. Without any warning, it just disappeared from the Design Studio.

The Model S 60/60D discontinuation is at least notified a month in advance.

MXBlack | March 20, 2017

@Dwepilot, @Leli001, perhaps “locked” is not the correct term to use but I believe that the software is limiting the last 20% of the battery cells from ever being charged. That is the only reason to explains why my maximum charge mileage is decreasing over time because the 80% of the battery cells that are available to me are now degrading. It now stands at 196 miles max for the last couple of months instead of 201 max when I first got the car. Even though the vehicle charge full speed to 100%, it does not mean that the last 20% of the battery is not locked. Imagine a 75 gallons bucket and water is being poured into it; once the bucket is almost full, the water will need to be poured into it slowly to 100% in order to avoid the water being spilled. Now imagine the same 75 gallons bucket but you only have 60 gallons of water to pour into it (because the software is limiting you to only have 60 gallons of water). You’ll still be able to pour the water in at full speed without worrying about spilling any water. When I plug my car in to charge, it always say “charging will starts momentarily”, which means it could be determining that my car currently have X amount of miles and I’ll be allow to put in Y amount of charge into my car in order to reach 60 Kwh, hence it can pour in the charge at full speed all the way up to 100%. Do either of you have the X60D and if so then what is your current maximum charge mileage? If the last 20% of the battery cells are not “locked” then the car should always be able to charge to 201 miles at all times since any battery degradation would occur in the last 20% of the useable battery cells.

Model_D | March 20, 2017

I have only charged my X60D to 100% twice. It went to 200 miles when new. I did it again at 3,000 miles and it showed 201 miles. One thing to consider is how long has it been since you checked the available miles since it reached 100%. The time I saw 200 miles I charged overnight and it probably lost one mile while sitting idle. The time I saw 201 miles was immediately after supercharging. So, keep in mind that you will lose miles after the X is fully charged. The rate depends on what settings you selected.

Leli001 | March 20, 2017

dtv, you obviously don't read entire posts, so I give up

MXBlack | March 20, 2017

I only gets 196 miles full charge and this is from me sitting in the car at the Supercharger and it said charging completes. I'm not even away from my car for 1 second, and even on an occasion that I'm away from the car for a few minutes, my Tesla app said "Charging completes at 196 miles". It has been this way for the last 2 months so it does not varies depending on temperatures and what not. Maybe it is just my car that is having this problem :(

Leli001 | March 20, 2017

What is your average Wh/mi ?

I remember reading somewhere on the forum that that full charge figure can vary depending on your last 30 mile efficiency rating.

What region are you in? It was in the 50's today by me and I was averaging below 300Wh/mi somehow so the recharge may reflect that. Will have to wait and see as the weather gets warmer.

MXBlack | March 20, 2017

My average Wh/mi for the last 30 miles is 378 Wh/mi. My lifetime average for 4,944 miles is 415 Wh/mi. I'm in SoCal and it was in the 60's last month and in the 70's this month and it does not seems to make a different in term of only getting a full charge for 196 miles. I live 650 ft. above sea level so I almost never average below 300 Wh/mi except for the first couple of miles going from my house.

Leli001 | March 20, 2017

That is interesting as I have seen it range anywhere from 196 - 200 at the full charge since new. I can only suspect the software is limiting the charge prematurely but not sure why.

SolidWhite60DX | March 20, 2017

Fwiw I charged to 100% today and it said 199 miles. I've seen it in the past stop at 197 or 198. Not sure what makes the difference. I've been charging to 100% once or twice a week, and have over 6000 miles in 3 months.

I was worried at the beginning as my first few charges got to 200 or 201 miles, but it seems to have stabilized at 199. I hope we're right and any degradation is hidden by the unused 20%.

MXBlack | March 20, 2017

So I guess 196 seems to be the lowest number so far. I'm going to keep charging to 100% and just pray that it will not go down further. It seems like you guys are saying that your range actually fluctuate up and down between 196 and 201. For me however, it only keeps going down but not up (started with 201, then 198, and now 196). If anyone gets below 196, please post on this forum so we can better speculate if any degradation is only hidden by the unused 20% or taken out of our 80%.

Vawlkus | March 21, 2017

are you charging in range mode?

MXBlack | March 21, 2017

My range mode setting is currently set to on. I do this because it said I would save energy. Does this affect charging in anyway?

MXBlack | March 21, 2017

I usually let my battery runs down pretty low (less than 20 miles left) before recharging to full. I wonder if this affect battery degradation?

jpcompetello | March 21, 2017

I have a Model X 90D and am getting only 180 miles from a 229 charge (80 percent or so). Asked the SC and they said that is 'normal' due to use of heater (hey we need to warm the cabin, no?). Of course in summer they will say you use a/c so that is 'normal' also. It is amazing how Tesla advertises such great battery capacity and range and then owners get considerably less.

Leli001 | March 22, 2017

@dtv, I would suggest you don't wait to recharge when you are down below 20 miles routinely. I've read somewhere this puts unnecessary stress on the pack, especially since you don't need to. I think every now and again, it would be fine but should be avoided on a daily/weekly basis. The lowest SoC that I have recharged at is 40% after a few days of driving. Granted, mostly local trips but I usually recharge after a couple of days and 60% SoC.

Why range mode? That should only be used if low SoC and need to save energy to your destination for a recharge, not as a permanent setting. Not sure, but that might affect the full recharge level if used regularly. May be someone here has regularly used range mode over a long time can shed some more light on this.

@jp, true those miles per charge numbers can seem unrealistic, but they are under ideal conditions. Just as with most ICE vehicles rarely see their rated MPG figures during real world miles. I have noticed that fast highway speeds in excess of 75MPH can drain the battery quickly as well as the heating. Keep in the mind, even if you reduce or turn off the cabin heater, there is still a separate heater used just for the battery pack that consumes quite a bit of energy as well. Since it uses resistive heaters, the A/C during the summer should be more efficient than the heater.

Redmiata98 | March 22, 2017

The A/C IS much more effecient than the heating!

Leli001 | March 22, 2017

Which is exactly why I always asked why didn't Tesla incorporate a heat pump into the cars. The main component would only involve a 4way directional valve on the existing refrigerant lines. Still incorporate the existing resistive heating elements for that instant heat until the heat pump can put out sufficient amount of heat after a few minutes.

The efficiency would be 3-4 times that of a resistive heater!

ratchet | March 22, 2017

I'm STILL waiting for delivery of my MX 100D but have read through the Owners Manual (twice). Here is what it says about Range Mode:

"If on, Model X conserves energy by limiting the power of the climate control system and turning off signature lighting. Cabin heating and cooling may be less effective, but seat heaters can be used to provide warmth in colder climates. When turned on in a dualmotor vehicle, torque distribution between the motors is optimized to maximize range."

So, Range Mode does not affect charging of the battery but just manages the use of power to focus more on mileage than on comfort. Range Mode should have no impact on battery life which is primarily affected by high and low SoC.

MXBlack | March 23, 2017

I just charged today at the Supercharger and I've lost another mile (only 195 miles full charge now). This basically means that I've lost 1 mile per month which works out to 6% battery degradation per year on a car that is not supposed to see much battery degradation since it is supposedly only being charged to 80% on a full charge. I will no longer let my battery runs down so low and will also only charge to 90% from now on because charging to 100% does affect battery degradation in lieu of what most are saying :(

bward76 | March 24, 2017

I have frequently charged to 100% and consistantly get 201 miles when doing so. 6000 miles so far on the X60D. When I use a supercharger I get about 95 kW until about 140 miles of charge, then it slowly degrades to about 50 kW at 182 miles of charge. It tops out at 100% at about 40 kW.

MXBlack | March 24, 2017

@bward76, you're so lucky to be able to still get 201 miles at 6,000 miles. I only have 5,000 miles on my X60D so there is definitely something wrong with my battery. Doesn't Tesla have some sort of warranty against battery degrading so fast?

Pages