Socialism for the Rich

Socialism for the Rich

The United States has spent more subsidizing fossil fuels in recent years than it has on defense spending, according to a new report from the International Monetary Fund. The IMF found that direct and indirect subsidies for coal, oil and gas in the U.S. reached $649 billion in 2015.

People voting?

Protecting our elections?

Preventing climate change?

Reforming immigration laws?

Socialism is any policy they don’t like.

NKYTA | 16/06/2019

“Oil, gas and coal companies — and their stooges in public office — have long argued that making consumers pay for the full impacts of fossil fuel use would cripple the economy. The IMF experts call bullshit on this idea, revealing that the world would, in fact, be more prosperous. Eliminating subsidies for fossil fuels would have created global “net economic welfare gains” in 2015 of “more than $1.3 trillion, or 1.7 percent of global GDP,” the study found.”

That ^^

Tesla-David | 16/06/2019

Yes, all oil, gas, and coal subsidies need to be eliminated. We the tax payers are forced to pay for all the externalities and environmental damages these companies have inflected on our beleaguered planet. Enough already!

SamO | 16/06/2019

The trolls don’t have the balls (not the facts) to refute that they are the true socialists.

Socialism for the rich. Rugged individualism for the poor.

jimglas | 16/06/2019

imagine where the US of A would be in renewables if only half of this was used as renewable support and incentives

stevenmaifert | 16/06/2019

I believe everything I read in Rolling Stone, especially campus rape stories. Can't blame Trump for this one. The study took place in 2015.

SamO | 16/06/2019

F you and Republicans you cherry picking death cult. Don’t believe RS or IMF?


Meanwhile in the real world:

The One Percent Have Gotten $21 Trillion Richer Since 1989. The Bottom 50% Have Gotten Poorer.

SamO | 16/06/2019

The Federal Reserve just released some data that makes the state of this alignment easier to gauge. In its new Distributive Financial Accounts data series, the central bank offers a granular picture of how American capitalism has been distributing the gains of economic growth over the past three decades. Matt Bruenig of the People’s Policy Project took the Fed’s data and calculated how much the respective net worth of America’s top one percent and its bottom 50 percent has changed since 1989.

He found that America’s superrich have grown about $21 trillion richer since Taylor Swift was born, while those in the bottom half of the wealth distribution have grown $900 billion poorer.

stevenmaifert | 16/06/2019

In 2016, the top 1 percent of taxpayers accounted for more income taxes paid than the bottom 90 percent combined. The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid roughly $538 billion, or 37.3 percent of all income taxes, while the bottom 90 percent paid about $440 billion, or 30.5 percent of all income taxes. The bottom 50% paid no income taxes at all, and most would have qualified for the Earned Income Credit, paid for mostly by that top 1 percent.

What alternate reality do you live in that gives you the right to hurl such invectives? If you read the study, which you probably didn't, you'll see its conclusions are based on some deeply flawed assumptions. The authors admit they define subsidy very broadly and include things that are almost impossible to quantify monetarily. They tell us air pollution contributes to four fatal illnesses—strokes, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, ischemic heart disease, and lung cancer. They claim that that if fossil fuels had been fairly priced in 2015, global carbon emissions would have been slashed by 28 percent. Deaths from fossil fuel-linked air pollution would have dropped by nearly half. How could they possible conclude that? How do you determine a death was caused by air pollution, instead of smoking, diet, obesity and other life style choices that contribute to those types of deaths. There is no data to support those conclusions. In the end, they so broadly define fossil fuel post-tax subsidies, particularly as it relates to the unquantifiable cost of health effects, that it's easy to show they are more than defense spending. So what!

NoMoPetrol | 16/06/2019


The problem with your argument is that, while the top 1% are paying 37.3 % of the taxes, they are taking home (or to the Cayman Islands) at least twice that percentage in income. So the net effect is they are in an unrealistically low tax bracket by percentages.

SamO | 16/06/2019

Blah blah blah. More bullshit from the death cult.

Meanwhile, fossil fuel sock puppets lose in court and have to apologize for being lying fuckwits.

In 2011, renowned scientist Michael E. Mann sued a Canadian think tank that published an interview suggesting his work on climate change was fraud.
Eight years later, the Winnipeg-based Frontier Centre for Public Policy—which often promotes climate change denial—apologized Friday and wiped the inflammatory interview from its website.

SamO | 16/06/2019

Just stop being a lying fuckwit, Steve.

Uncle Paul | 16/06/2019

This wealth concentration by the top few % is not just in Democractic societies, but also in Socialism, Communism. Kingdoms and even Churches.

All these societies funnel all the wealth to the people at the top, in power. Even in Cuba,Fidel and his government elite were the richest in all the island. The celebrated Peons lived mostly in poverty and squalor. Nobody is giving a $15 minimum wage in any of the Communist countries.

In Russia, a Communists/Socalist society, Putin is perhaps the richest person, followed by his Czars and Oligarcs.
In empoverished North Korea, their Dear Leader lives a life of luxury and privledge.

Bernie says that the poor die 15 years earlier that the rich in USA. Probably right, but that also is the same in all the other systems. Those with wealth and power have better medical care, eat better and live protected lives. Of course they live longer. Fidel Castro lived to a nice old age, and had fantastic medical care when he fell ill, prolonging his life far longer than if he was a field worker.

One big difference I have noted is that only in Capitalist systems do the rich pay way more that their "fair share". They pay tremendous amounts in taxes. Some of the cleverest find ways to avoid or delay the tax man, but for the most part they pay a huge share of the taxes. Also the middle classes pay significant taxes and the poor pay almost no income taxes. Everyone gets hit with consumption taxes (except for the criminal element is all wealth segments)

Biggest difference is that in most capitalist systems everyone at least has a shot at becoming wealthy. Elon Musk was not born rich, Steve Jobs worked his way up, Jeff Bezos made his own bi$$ions. Even those rich people on Shark tank came from poor beggings, and each has gotten wealthy by different means.

In Communist/Socialist/Markist governments, you mostly get ahead by ruthless elimination of your competitors and those above you. Kings and Queens often get on the throne by violence, war, domination of other territories or killing off the siblings ahead of them in succession to the Crown.

The Pope is one of the richest in the world, yet claims poverty and suffering while wearing Ermine shawls, wearing priceless jewels, and being driven around in his Popemobile. He has the financial wherewithall to feed and reduce suffering for millions, but is not going to sell a single gold chalice.

This is the way of the world. Pretending that Democracy is horrible, but Socalism is better,, is perhaps being blind to the reality of the World.

SamO | 16/06/2019

Socialism is here. Already. For the rich. To pretend we live in a capitalist society is beyond stupid.

It requires active lying.

See above.

Nexxus | 17/06/2019

And people wonder why they can't balance the budget...

David N | 17/06/2019

I sometimes wonder when I hear others ranting about our great country. I hear them use words like Socialism, redistribution, fair share, rich, poor.
Socialism/redistribution is simply taking from those who have and giving to those who don’t have, it’s that simple.
It’s never worked before, anywhere.
If those who would feel better with that system, perhaps they can lead the charge and get the ball rolling, no need to wait for elected officials, let’s start with everyone here, let’s start with “redistributing”, let’s “ redistribute” our Tesla’s , I mean, seriously, it’s not fair that some have when others want but can’t. So all are to hand over their Tesla’s to a more needy person. Let’s move on to your savings........
Our system isn’t perfect, but it’s darn good. It’s been here for over 200 years and people from all over the world are still immigrating here.
I listened to interviews with recent immigrants who immigrated here from Socialist type countries, and they are totally baffled at why the hell anyone here would even talk about changing to a Socialist society.
The immigrants lived there, lived it and got the hell out. Nuff said.
To the people who think they can take what is mine:
I and my family volunteer heavily, I've helped in soup kitchens for the poor, the veterans, the lonely, the mentally ill, the homeless. I’ve raised money for scholarships for the less fortunate, helped needy families with food donations at food banks, helped with children who are mentally and physical handicapped etc......... reaching out and helping those is what makes America great. It’s redistribution of ones heart, of caring, of love and concern. It’s not about transfer of wealth, it’s about transfer of love and compassion. And that only comes from ones heart, not stealing from others hard earned money.
You have no right to take what I’ve worked hard for and have earned for me and my family.
If you don’t like it here perhaps you can start a new trend, move to another country where you’ll be happier. Best wishes to you.

SamO | 17/06/2019


Please educate yourself.

You are an embarrassment

sabbia | 17/06/2019

Maifert and Uncle, here is your argument in historical terms. A serf was allowed to work on a lord's land. The landlord kept most of the harvest because after all, it was grown on the land the landlord owned by heredity. The serf was allowed to keep a subsistence level of the harvest.

How dare the serfs demand for themselves what properly belonged to the landlord! By giving a subsistence level of what the landlord owned back to the serfs (remember, the serfs didn't own anything) the landlords paid the highest taxes.

Darn uppity serfs!

SamO | 17/06/2019


jimglas | 17/06/2019

Solar works
And coal is dying

BuffaloBillsFan | 17/06/2019

I am close to the 5% (a more reasonable number IMO when comparing the haves to the have nots).

I am a proud snowflake liberal and will soon vote in my first presidential election.

I will wholeheartedly and knowingly vote against my own self interests in this upcoming election in favor of higher taxes, fewer tax deductions for the rich, and more tax breaks for the less privileged.


Because I believe that the economically disadvantaged should be given a step up (even at the cost of another vacation for me).

I believe that the less-privileged should be given the right to a comprehensive, well rounded grade-school and high school education (I can do without a third domicile in Teluride, though that would be sweet).

I believe that the income gap between the haves and have-nots is insane and should be corrected (even though I would love to have a J-35 to sail around in).

Finally, I believe that our society will be better off if the wealthy help rebuild the crumbling infrastructure of our country, since the less fortunate just can’t afford to help us do it (I do like Chateau Lafite, 1968 especially, but not at the expense of potholed roads and collapsing bridges, terrible electrical grids, and all-consuming poverty for a large percentage of our country).

In short, I feel that we are better off as Americans if ALL OF US are better off, not just the few fortunate ones like me (and to be fair, my wife and kids).

Why we are subsidizing air/water/soil-polluting international companies who make enormous profits even without our help beggars the imagination. I just have no idea how this can be.

Why can we subsidize Royal Dutch Shell, but not provide clean water for the poor citizens of Flint MI? How is this even possible?

For all the “everything is better when we rely on our own initiative” crowd, how can we ever be better as a society when the least fortunate of our fellow citizens don’t even have clean drinking water?

Sorry for the rant, and I apologize if anyone was offended by my post.

SamO | 17/06/2019


SCCRENDO | 17/06/2019

@ButfaloBills. +100

TranzNDance | 17/06/2019

@ButfaloBills. +1

Even if the 1% didn't have the heart to care, the numbers would work against them in a revolution.

Uncle Paul | 17/06/2019

BuffaloBills Fan.

Well though out and self sacrificing touching argument for wealth distribution.

Problem is with the math. There are not enough multi millionairs to give enough to raise the standard of living of the 6 Billion relatively poor in the world.

If you give up driving a nice car, Live in a smaller house, and vacation less, it will make almost an insignificant difference in the multitude of less well off.

It is kind of like a life raft that holds 20 people. Has enough food and water to keep those 20 people alive until rescued. If 50 people try to climb on, the raft will sink and all well die. Well meaning rafters will keep bringing on clingers one by one until the raft reaches max capacity and all go down with the ship.

When you can no longer find a hospital bed because thay are already taken by the poor. When you cannot get an appointment with a Doctor because they are overwhelmend by the poor. When you cannot get your kids into a good college because those seats have been allocated for the underprivileged, and when there is not enough food ot go around because the poor have the allocations, then perhaps you will understand the folly.

SCCRENDO | 18/06/2019

@uncle Paul. Listen to Elizabeth Warren and she will show you the math to make a good start within this country. Your strawman argument is that if we cannot show a perfect end result we should not try. The end result will eventually come. Your arguments are not Germaine. I will just address the last one. Just because we don’t have sufficient hospital beds is not a reason to deny healthcare to those less well off. How about society providing enough resources to take care of the whole population. Yes there is a pecking order of priorities but food, affordable housing, healthcare, the environment and education are right up there.

sabbia | 18/06/2019

@Uncle. "[W]hen you can no longer find a hospital bed because thay [sic] are already taken by the poor."

That's about as disgusting a thing I've read since being on these forums. Shame on you. And I bet you don't get it. I bet you don't see the inhumanity in your point of view. I am just flabbergasted. Uncle Paul? You would probably take a hospital bed from your nieces and nephews. I wonder if they are proud of your barbarism. What an example you set.

SamO | 18/06/2019


But a perfect encapsulation of the mentality of this death cult.

Here's a funny story about GOP "messaging genius" Frank Luntz.

"I’m at the Hotel Imperial in Vienna, Austria. Almost 200 rooms… But the elevator has been broken for 3 days.
Please don’t bring European-style socialism to America."

The Hotel Imperial is a five-star luxury hotel owned by Marriott, a publicly traded, U.S.-based multinational corporation. Anyway, this is all a bit like blaming Karl Marx when your Rolex stops working. Is Luntz’s tweet idiotic? Mostly, yes, it would seem so (maybe there is some Austria-specific regulation that makes elevator repair a bureaucratic morass, though so far I haven’t been able to find one).

In practical terms, that means pinning anything that goes wrong in a vaguely left-leaning country on the S-word. Venezuela gets hyperinflation? Blame socialism. Your luxury hotel elevator stops working in Austria, a country that until recently had a right-wing government but also has a decent welfare state and happens to be in Europe? Blame socialism.

jimglas | 18/06/2019

I blame obama

SamO | 18/06/2019


TranzNDance | 18/06/2019

There should be a "Would Obama get away with this" sanity check when it comes to the current administration.

sabbia | 18/06/2019

@Sam, while you blame Marriott and Luntz blames Socialism, I blame good ole American Doubletree. By the way, did you know that elevators are socialist? How else could a group use a shared common conveyance?

I still can't get over Uncle. There will be lots of books written and many movies made about this Trump thing we are going through. Uncle will be a character in many of them. The epitome of privileged, orthographically challenged (although that's the least of his sins), monstrous, heartless, Make Feudalism Great Again, skein that runs throughout the world, but very surprisingly to me, in America.

There is a benefit to Uncle's honesty, though. He voices the views of the Trump supporters who wouldn't dare admit that if you're poor, you should die. Because if you're poor, and you don't die, you are using resources that I can hoard.

Uncle Paul | 18/06/2019

Problem with providing free things to everyone, is that there will never be enough free stuff for everyone.

As an imperfect example I noticed that at regular gas stations there is rarely a line to fill up, but at most Costco stations, where gas is 10 cents cheaper people must wait in line for a long time to get your fill. Imagine how long the line would be if the gas was free.

If hospitals were free, there would never be enough rooms for the truly ill.

You can call me cold hearted, but there is also a reality to socalism and communism. The rabble will almost never get the quality of healthcare that those in power will have access. The party leaders will have special hospitals and special rooms with special physicians, while the rabble will need to sort it out by themselves.

Very few poor people are trying to get into communist countries. One example I can think of is the empoverished people of North Korea that want to smuggle into communist China. There are people stationed on both sides of that border that will shoot on sight anyone trying to flee North Korea. Also will be shot if they get to the China side by the Chinese guards.

SCCRENDO | 18/06/2019

@Uncle. It is not free for everyone. For some it will be. And the richer folk will pay a larger amount. But improving the overall health of the public improves quality of life and productivity including economic for all.

sabbia | 18/06/2019

Uncle. You try to hide your shame by posting a red herring about "free."

You said the poor will get hospital beds and you won't. Consequently, the poor should die and you shouldn't.

You outlook will be the gravamen for what happened to America during the Trump era and why some Americans welcome his crimes.

SamO | 18/06/2019

The problem with strawman arguments is that there can never be enough strawmen.

sabbia | 18/06/2019

"You outlook" should be "Your outlook"

BuffaloBillsFan | 18/06/2019

@Uncle Paul,

I am not talking about providing the less fortunate with free money. I also didn’t talk about providing for 6 billion people. I am talking about providing for the 100-200 million American CITIZENS, who have none of the opportunities that you or your family have access to.

As for the whole homeless people filling up hospitals thing . . .WHAT THE FUCK ARE TOU TALKING ABOUT?

As for the whole college thing . . . WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

And who said anything about providing “free things” to the disadvantaged? I am talking about the richest 5% of us paying our fair share to make sure that our country continues to be the best society ever created. That includes education, a healthy environment/drinking water/access to healthcare and affordable housing for those who might not be as fortunate as you or me.

I would prefer to drive my Model 3 on a real paved road and over safe bridges, even if that costs me a little more personally than the people who don’t even own a car because they can’t afford one.

If you think it is too much to provide adequate health care and education to our least privileged, then you might like one of Marie Antoinette’s alleged last quotations . . . ‘Let them eat cake.” Probably not a true quotation, but you ramped it up another notch with your comments.

You, sir, are a disgrace to yourself and your country. You deserve no more of my time. “I am done with you.” And if you can’t attribute that to the person who said it, you might be even more ignorant than I can imagined.

PS. Lafite 1968 was not an especially good year for this particular Grand Cru. Did you know that, @Uncle Paul? I don’t suppose you did . . . Why do you suppose I chose that particular year? There are several reasons, one of which you might particularly enjoy . . .

PPS. I hope you are never turned away from a hospital, because, “Gosh Darn! There are just too many poor people in our hospital to accommodate you!” That would be a first in the history of hospitals ever.

Fuck you very much for your contribution to this thread.

Tesla2018 | 18/06/2019

Some of the richest people donate huge amounts to charity. Bill Gates is giving away most of his money and so is Warren Buffett. They pick who they want the money to go to.

I met the guy that invented memory foam for beds and sold the company for about 500 million and he spent a bunch of it on buying about 100 antique and customized new exotic cars. Didnt know that a relative worked for him .He bought Michael Schumachers winning F1 Ferrarri and a friend who owned a car dealership asked if wanted to sell. The guy said that he sold one of his cars and regretted it. He was keeping all the cars he had and not selling them. I thought this was extremely greedy until he said that he worked hard and is now going to enjoy his life and that when he dies all of his cars are to be auctioned off and the money goes to a childrens hospital that he already donated to in order to build an extra wing. He also hired a physically disabled kid that I knew to manage his collection for a few years. I heard the kids dad died in an accident and that the kid was in the hospital. I mentioned it to my relative and he told the guy who then made a gigantic donation to the guys go fund me page to pay his medical bills.
Another guy I met sold his company for 4 billion and lives like a normal person (no jets, yachts, but has nice homes)and goes to Costco for pizza and is a recluse. But he donated 100 million to a hospital and came to the US with only a few dollars. Some people realize they are fortunate and instead of paying higher taxes and have the government waste it, would rather oversee where the money goes.
But then there are also greedy people like the Koch brothers that use their money to try to control the world by funding PACs and companies that pay millions to lobbyists to support their agendas instead of lowering their prices to consumers.

SCCRENDO | 18/06/2019

@BuffaloBillsFan. Don’t fret. Uncle is a low IQ Trump sycophant and Foxnews enthusiast. There is limited thought involved.

SamO | 19/06/2019

Let’s not depend on the altruism of the rich to fund society.

That’s why we have taxes.

sabbia | 19/06/2019

Let's ask Uncle to consider Tesla2018's anecdotes. First, I assume Uncle has nieces and or nephews. So the guy who bought the F1 Ferrari, or the guy with billions who goes to Costco for pizza hasn't died yet so the children's hospital doesn't have a new wing. What if Uncle's nieces or nephews (I am absolutely not wishing for this) gets sick. Ferrari guy's kids get to go to the hospital. Uncle's relatives who don't deserve a bed because they have less money than Ferrari guy look Uncle in the eye and say, "Uncle, you're okay with this"?

Uncle says, "Well, Ferrari guy has more money than you."

Uncle's nieces and nephews respond similarly to BuffaloBillsFan, above.

jimglas | 19/06/2019

its there own damn fault
If they want good healthcare, they should have been born a romney or a trump
damn takers

Uncle Paul | 19/06/2019

You guys got me all wrong. I became a rampant Socialist when I turned 65. Began to get a check for thousands of $ every month from the Federal Government every month. Also get most all my medical bills paid for, also from the government.
I get discounts on my movie tickets, cheaper prices on many of my meals from restaurants, free admission to all the National Parks with Eagle pass. Get tons of AARP discounts on hotel rooms, cruises, and even airplane rides.
I no longer pay payroll taxes of any type nor into Social Security or Medicare.
I can get free college classes at my local Community College, free vision and hearing tests. Free health club membership and use of their pool as much as I want with Silver Slippers.
I get pretty much a free ride. Life is good. I have lots of savings, but still get so much for free that I smile every day, as I get carte blanc treatment and our government goes deeper and deeper into debt every day.

I know that this is not sustainable. It is a fantasy, but for me and millions of other it is a reality.

Even if we took every dollar of savings from all the millionaires in the USA it would only pay for the proposals of the heavy socialists for one year. After that year is gone, all that money is gone too, and no more to pay for all the freebies the socialist can dream up.

Most of the socialists I know want someone else to pay for all their feel good programs. Have not met many that are willing to give their own savings to fund some other kids (that they do not know) free college, housing, healthcare and living expenses. I may be wrong, and if one of you are willing to step forward and donate your own money to the less fortunate, then please do so.

Personally I support substantially a large private homless facility in San Diego, as well as a Catholic mission that also cares for the less fortunate. I pay for thousands of bibles to be provided to anyone interested in learning that message. When I die, my remaining funds will go to a charity that does great work. I do this as I have no childred to leave it to.

I owned a successful company that employed 20 people. That payroll allowed those employees to learn a trade. Most of them got married, raised families and provided for the health and living conditions of their elderly parents. For 30 years we did a lot of good. Provided for a lot of good people and provided a service highly valued by our customers.

In America, citizens are allowed to vote for the representation of their choosing. We are allowed to watch the programing of our choosing, and we get to vote with our feet if we feel that we are no longer valued in that society.

What say you?

SCCRENDO | 19/06/2019

I say you are taking advantage of the safety net provided by the government and other benefits that seniors get. You may need it far less than others. So why would you deny these benefits to those in need. I say you are a hypocrite. If your principles are that strong I say don't take the government benefits that you do not want others in greater need than you to get.

andy.connor.e | 19/06/2019

I pay into social security and medicare every paycheck and receive zero benefits from the government. I better be eligible for the benefits i paid into my entire life when i am of age.

SCCRENDO | 19/06/2019

@Andy. Uncle Paul got his but he doesn't think you should get yours. And also don't go to hospital. Uncle Paul is keeping that bed for himself

jimglas | 19/06/2019

@andy: couldnt agree more
it pisses me off when republicans refer to medicare and SS and "entitlements"
We paid for them
A republicans stole 3 trillion from SS

NKYTA | 19/06/2019

“I became a rampant Socialist when I turned 65.”
“I no longer pay payroll taxes of any type nor into Social Security or Medicare.
I can get free college classes at my local Community College, free vision and hearing tests.”

Clearly those classes are on real world scenarios. Or non-existent
Worried about a driving test now!! Good luck!

“I get discounts on my movie tickets, cheaper prices on many of my meals from restaurants, free admission to all the National Parks with Eagle pass.”

You do realize that those are dwindling under Trump?

You tried once more Uncle, and you failed.

No grandkids tugging your arm (not that that is required)!

andy.connor.e | 20/06/2019

You should not receive discounts on restaurants, parks and movies just for being old. You have your life savings behind you, and all the programs meant for people who are old. My god, its like because you've lived a certain amount of time you feel a sense of entitlement. Yes, everyone is oppressed and you deserve free stuff.

Do you have any idea how expensive health insurance is today? If i could get that for free i'd be rich.

If i was old, i could get a higher discount on my property taxes, thats another couple hundred dollars a month.

Literally if i was just old, i could afford 2 Teslas TODAY. And probably even afford to finance the solar roof.

I cant even imagine getting general discounts on top of those things, let alone social security checks every month. I really dont understand what the hell you have to complain about. You pay into these things your whole life and once you start getting them its like its not good enough.

sabbia | 20/06/2019

@Uncle. It would be good to read those bibles before giving them away. Start with Proverbs 14 31.

"Whoever oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God."

It's amazing that those who clothe themselves in religiosity don't have a clue what the message is.