Less likely to see Model S refresh any time soon after today.

Less likely to see Model S refresh any time soon after today.

The Taycan "turbo" priced at $152K and "turbo" S at $186K, before the usually obscenely costly Porsche options, has only estimated 230~240 EPA range and is still 1/2 second slower 0-60 than the MS performance. And this is from the foremost performance car brand under the largest carmaker in the world. I'm sure Elon has many ideas of how the next MS will be like but there is not much incentive to do it soon. As is Tesla is still years ahead of everyone else. | 04/09/2019

But you do get hundreds of tiny cryptic buttons in the Taycan. That must be worth something?

PrescottRichard | 04/09/2019

TT- yeah, I saw a pic of the dash last week and holy cow! More is more, I guess. I’m not fan of sub-menus in a car but that interior shows how the opposite isn’t desirable IMO.

barrykmd | 04/09/2019

Customer service is worth something, too. Too bad Tesla doesn't think so.

Bighorn | 04/09/2019

Porsche lost the custom order on my Cayman S and I had to re-order 6 months later. Had to drive 550 miles to pick it up. Tesla was delivered to my neighborhood one month after I placed my order. The Top Gear video showed a full range of 210 miles on the Taycan "Turbo", so I don't think I could get it home without an overnight or two.

barrykmd | 04/09/2019

And at least you know what you get with buttons. They don't move to inconvenient or even potentially dangerous places at the whim of some incompetent UI guy (or CEO).

eddyline | 04/09/2019

I won't hold my breath on customer service for EVs from major ICE manufacturers--I recall how well HD 'supported' Buell motorcycles. And initial Prius sales. And Leaf. Et cetera. If it takes away from their main revenue stream, they may not want anything to do with it, like the others generally have done in the past.

Of course, if they start selling yuge volumes of Taycans, it may go differently. We will see.

Mathew98 | 04/09/2019

Yo @barry, did your hair decide to migrate down south and to the rear? Did you decide it was convenient for the migration?

There are forces of nature that you can't stop. Then there are fixed buttons, dozens and dozens of them.

carlk | 04/09/2019

@eddyline Yes I have owned Porsche and I know how much dealers depend on service to make profit. If the Porsche EV is made like Tesla that does not need a lot of service or require routine maintenance than I can't see how dealers will be willing to support it.

barrykmd | 04/09/2019

Matthew - that comment is stupid even for you. is this morning's Koolaid spiked with Vodka?

Mathew98 | 04/09/2019

@barry - Come on now, there's no stupidity lower than your fearless leader, the orange dong.

Sorry, water is my only vice. No sugar or alcohol in my drink.

inconel | 04/09/2019

"And at least you know what you get with buttons. They don't move to inconvenient or even potentially dangerous places at the whim of some incompetent UI guy (or CEO)"

I wonder why no manufacturers has seen this wisdom and started making phones with buttons, lots of them, again.

PrescottRichard | 04/09/2019

Barry- I get your point. It’s like when you buy a new car and have to figure where everything you’re gonna use is, then an update gives you a ‘new car’ in your old car so the expectation is there that you know where stuff is.

I don’t envy the GUX people because of this.

jordanrichard | 04/09/2019

One other thing is the Tacan will not be getting OTA updates...... I know someone that had a deposit on a Tacan, which he has since pulled and he was told by his long time dealer that there will not be nay OTA’s

carlk | 04/09/2019

If you read the Porsche forum even there people are disappointed of the car, mostly for the range and the price. There are people saying they are pulling their deposit. A few people there defending Porsche's reputation but none of them appears to be a buyer of the car.

IflyI95 | 04/09/2019

When there is a refreshed Model S 2.0, I'll be first with a deposit. Until then, I'm happy on my fence.

Tropopause | 04/09/2019

For having 0.22 drag coefficient and same/similar size battery as Model S, I'm surprised by the relatively low range. Goes to show, Porsche/VW is NOT a battery manufacturer nor an electric powertrain specialist.

Also the rear seats are not that usable vs. Model S and Taycan is only a 4-seater. Definitely not a family sedan but might be a good track car... for $200k.

carlk | 04/09/2019

True. Not to mention Porsche has to add a second gear to achieve that performance and efficiency.

2015P90DI | 05/09/2019

The car is twice the money because it's twice the car. Not a knock on Tesla. Just a fact. Performance isn't all about being able to accelerate from 0-60 in 2.4 seconds. The OP stated the tesla is 1/2 a second faster. False. Porsche says 2.6, so 2/10ths of second. Also, the interior will have far more luxury features than Tesla can even think of. Again, not a knock on Tesla. Just as the Model 3 is a $40,000 car and the MS is an $80,000 car, one is superior in quality to the other. The Porsche will be superior. Yes, some of the price difference will be because of the Porsche name. But, they've earned it. Porsche isn't looking for econo buyers. They built a high-performance car that just happens to be powered by electric instead of gas. Completely different category. Just like when people tried to compare a Chevy Bolt to a Tesla Model 3. No comparison. A Yugo is powered by a gas engine. Well, so is a Bugatti, does that mean they're comparable??? Stop thinking of every manufacturer as trying to be a Tesla killer. Most of them could care less about Tesla. They're building cars to suit what they believe is their customer base. Period. Porsche cars have always cost a lot of money. They are among the best ALL AROUND performance cars in the world. And this coming from someone that has never been a fan of Porsche and would never buy one. Just gets annoying to see all the Tesla fanboi's get offended by anything and everything. Makes Tesla owners look like.....well, whatever. The Taycan is a badass car in its own right. Period. The Tesla is still a Tesla and a badass car in its own right as well. Two different classes of cars that happen to plug in instead of fill up with gas.

Madatgascar | 05/09/2019

@2015P90Dl, at least the Bugatti goes faster than the Yugo....

carlk | 05/09/2019

I just came back from the Porsche forum. Pretty much everyone there thinks it's way over-priced. No one thinks it's twice of a car as the Model S or 3 times of a car as the Model 3 where comparison was also made.

carlk | 05/09/2019

BTW you'd be surprised how many people there say they are pulling their Taycan reservations and how many people say they will buy or have bought a Tesla, surprisingly mostly Model 3.

Silver2K | 05/09/2019


An older p100d does 0-60 in 2.27 in ludicrous plus mode and probable a little quicker on Raven models.

Silver2K | 05/09/2019


The Porsche superiority premium has always been the drivetrain and that's where they are losing big to the model s. The S has better suspension on the Raven models from what I've been reading (limited info), model s still has safety over it.

Please list the superiority you're thinking of.

Silver2K | 05/09/2019

Also.. Tesla vehicle get better monthly, constantly evolving while Porsche vehicles remain the same for years.

Don't get me wrong, customer communication has been horrible, but the car itself is an engineering marvel and not one company has come close.

It took Porsche 5 years to build a car that loses to a car built in 2015, the same year they started building it.

Silver2K | 05/09/2019

Correction, the p100d was released in 2016

carlk | 05/09/2019

@Silver True. In the ICE world with computer aided design and suppliers providing pretty much everything in the car the only differentiating factor is engine and transmission which each company holds its own technology. Porsche lost most of that when going to EV where Tesla reign supreme in battery and powertrain technologies. Not to mention Tesla pretty much owns the in car technology it pioneered. The game everyone else could play is just to catch up.

2015P90DI | 05/09/2019

Silver2K | September 5, 2019
Also.. Tesla vehicle get better monthly, constantly evolving while Porsche vehicles remain the same for years.

It took Porsche 5 years to build a car that loses to a car built in 2015, the same year they started building it.


I don't know, has Porsche said they're not going to do software updates? Many manufacturers are saying they will. Don't know what's been said on the Porsche.

#2 - Loses to Tesla at what? Tesla loses to a lot of cars, but wins against a lot of cars, depending on what you're referring to? Porsche has built their entire history on being a Performance car. That's what they specialize in. Take both cars to Nurburing in Germany and see who wins??? Do you really think it will be the Tesla? Try to run 20 back to back 1 mile drag races in a Tesla and then do the same in the Porsche and see which car loses less time relative to the first run.

Again, not a knock on Tesla in the slightest way, shape or form. Tesla's were built for one thing. Porsche's are built for another. As now, FOUR luxury manufacturers have released, or will be soon releasing cars that happen to be power by electric and all have less than 300 miles in range and have had more time to get there, clearly those manufacturers don't feel the need to offer 300 miles plus of range. What that reason is, I don't know. But I'm pretty certain they've done their research and built the car they wanted to build. EV's are no longer "compliance" vehicles that manufacturers built only because they had to. Yes, the Tesla does somethings better, but that's not the point.

For someone that just wants a nice EV with a lot of range, then of course the Tesla fits your preferences better. For someone that wants a "porsche-ahh", they're likely not interested in a Tesla. Clearly they didn't feel the need to compete with Tesla in some aspects, but they weren't trying to either.

Is a Bugatti really worth $4,000,000?? Sorry, as bad ass as that car is and even if I were a multi-billionaire, I could never justify $4M for a car, and I'm a car person who thinks its a bad ass car. But, if I were a pretentious billionaire that wanted the best of the best and the cache' the comes along with the brand name, I'd likely chose a Mercedes or Porsche over a Tesla because they are more "luxurious" and offer that brand name appeal that most buyers over those cars are interested in.

Lets put it this way, the new Corvette is relatively a bad ass car for $60,000. It will out perform many Ferrari's, Lambo's. Porsche's, etc. Do you really think that a Ferrari owner is going to give up his Ferrari to buy the poor man's Ferrari, known as the Corvette? Even if that Corvette will out perform his Ferrari. Point is, while there's always going to be some crossover, for the most part, two different class of cars. Two different buyer markets.

Tesla is a badass car in its own right. That doesn't mean everyone is giving up their luxury brand cars to go buy one.

Be happy that manufacturers are building cars that are more planet friendly, but you don't have to compare every car built to the Tesla. Other's will specifically target Tesla as their competition. Porsche isn't one of those.

Silver2K | 05/09/2019

The model s is a family sport sedan, not a nurburgring vehicle and never was.. and why the hell is anyone doing 1 mile runs 1 after the other? What idiot has ever done that on a track or street?

I'm sure the "person" that bought a model s recently is truly disappointed the Model S cannot compete on nurburgring.... Porsche did a great job marketing to that 1 person out of 100,000 MS buyers

The reason the other luxury vehicles have less than 300 miles is because they are finding out that's it's hard to build an electric vehicle and Tesla is smarter than they original thought.

inconel | 05/09/2019

I can now reveal what happened in a senior marketers meeting in Stuttgart earlier this year:

"Thank you for coming, vee are here today to decide on the Taycan pricing structure"

"Production told me they won't be able to get more than 40,000 battery packs per year from LG"

"Ok then we need to price it up to reduce demand. It will project an image of exklusivity which fits our brand anyway. The question is how high?"

"Vee also have to be careful not to antagonize our profitable 911 buyers"

"How about $10,000 less than the equivalent 911 models then? That should make the cash cows still feel kings of the hill"

"Gut idea. 10,000 less it is then. Now let's discuss today's next topic, how to distance our brand from the scandal that keeps coming back to haunt our parent company" ...

2015P90DI | 05/09/2019

Also need to remember, there was a point in time when Tesla was charging over $170,000 for a fully loaded P100D. That's when they kept increasing their prices because buyers kept paying them. But once they reached that level, they realized they went too far and the prices came down significantly.

And to your reference of 1 in 100,000. Have you seen Porsche's sales figures over their history? That's more than they're trying to reach anyway. Don't get all worked up. I've owned 12 Tesla's, clearly love the cars. Just saying, they're different cars. Period.

inconel | 05/09/2019

The P100D S or X never reached $170k. In Canada it did of course, but not in the US.

Darthamerica | 05/09/2019

Model S and Taycan are two different type of vehicles. Model S isn’t even really a luxury car if you compare it to Mercedes or Porsche standards. In any case it is more mass market luxury tech sedan. Taycan is a boutique ultra luxury sports sedan. As far as “Porsche Forum Buyers” pilling their deposits... I wouldn’t read much into that. Most of those people have delusions of grandeur and are in the Cayman category. The Taycan has been intentionally priced above that to be a halo car.

barrykmd | 05/09/2019

2015P90DI | September 5, 2019
I've owned 12 Tesla's

Instead of recharging the battery, you just buy another one? :-)

P.S. to Bighorn - I know what you're thinking... '

Mathew98 | 05/09/2019

They didn't have enough rivets to hold any of his 12 Teslas. Something is seriously wrong if he upgrades every 6 months. Something smell fishier than @PD's oyster farm...

IflyI95 | 05/09/2019

2015P - How can you rave about the Porsche's specs when it's not even out yet? You think it's going to be such a hit in every respect just because it's a Porsche, or because their CEO says so? Like others have said, it has been their engines/transmissions that have made their reputation. This is new territory for them. Tesla has a proven record with electric cars. Let's wait a year or two and see how it goes for them before all the lauding. By the way, it certainly isn't a very good looking car, IMO.

Tropopause | 05/09/2019

Let's see what happens next week at the Ring.

carlk | 05/09/2019

I probably will need to eat the crow. The one that going to run at the ring could be a new and improved version.

ST70 | 05/09/2019

@2015P90DI- WTF are you trying to say? Are you drinking again!?

inconel | 06/09/2019

I am very surprised by next week ring attempt. Do they have something new or is the Raven that much better?
Or could it be just of one those spur-of-the-moment tweets from Elon?

Silver2K | 06/09/2019

It's possible there is a tweek to the cooling system that allows the MS to keep moving at high speeds without needing a cooldown period.

I doubt very much he will embarrass his prized possession by having it go into limp mode when going around the ring.

carlk | 06/09/2019

From TMC pictures of two model S there at Nürburgring (post #439).

DanFoster1 | 06/09/2019

Did someone say “huge volumes” of a Porsche that costs $150k at the very least? LOL

2015P90DI | 07/09/2019

@inconel | September 5, 2019
The P100D S or X never reached $170k. In Canada it did of course, but not in the US.

Check your facts before making statements as if they are facts. Simply put, you are absolutely, 100% incorrect in your statement.

inconel | 07/09/2019

Can you enlighten me and give a breakdown of the base and options prices to reach $170k BEFORE tax?

carlk | 07/09/2019

My 16' X P90DL with EVERY option, premium audio, 22" rim etc., was a little less than $150,000. I don't think there had been a price increase after that.

Madatgascar | 07/09/2019

Tesla will either need to refresh its design or update its website to give up its “best drag coefficient” claim.

hsuru4u | 07/09/2019

MODEL S ISNT LUXURY at all- only in price.In interior its very plain and meh. Styling is subdued and just ok but not wow. Driving it is nice and it rides nice but its not worth even 70k.

Madatgascar | 07/09/2019

@hsuru4u, Tesla has never claimed to be a luxury car. It is a performance sedan. From a performance car standpoint it beats cars 5 times its price. If you are looking for “luxury,” i.e. soft leather and lots of high quality materials, cooler boxes, curtains, etc., look elsewhere.

carlk | 07/09/2019

Why it has to be a "luxury" car? Is iPhone a luxury mobile device? Tesla is a high tech car.

Silver2K | 07/09/2019

hsuru4u | September 7, 2019
MODEL S ISNT LUXURY at all- only in price.In interior its very plain and meh. Styling is subdued and just ok but not wow. Driving it is nice and it rides nice but its not worth even 70k.

You wouldn't make such an uneducated comment if you looked inside a McLaren f1 @1 mil price and now they go for 4 mil in mint condition