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Alerts for amber lights with HW2.5 EAP 2020.8.1

Alerts for amber lights with HW2.5 EAP 2020.8.1

I've just observed that the car is giving alarms for amber lights. Previously the car was giving alerts only for red lights.

Unfortunately, no video at this time - but it's not that hard to get a video of this scenario.

M3phan | 28/03/2020

@vmulla, tangent question, did you pay for FSD/when are you getting HW3 retrofit?

shonn.burton | 28/03/2020

@vmulla How are you getting any of the new visualizations with HW2.5? I thought only HW3.0 could see the new visualizations? I have HW 2.5 and have been on 2020.8.1 Since 3/11, but got an update yesterday for 2020.8.2. I'm not getting any of the new visualizations at all!

vmulla | 28/03/2020

@M3phan,
I did not opt for FSD on my 3. I'm saving that money for FSD on my future Y.
My use case for the 3 doesn't have much benefit for FSD. I only have a hand full of intersections/signals for the entire time I go from home to work, and they're all within 2-3 mins of my start/destination. I firmly believe that there will be a tipping point where I'll upgrade the 3 to FSD, but that'll probably be after I get my Y.

@shonnburton,
There are no visualizations on the screen for traffic lights/signs with EAP+HW2.5. However, that doesn't mean that the car doesn't detect them - it just doesn't show them on the screen. Just pay attention to how the car behaves under different situations and you'll observe that it does 'see' everything. BUT I do not think it has the processing power to react reliably with HW2.5 - please keep that in mind when expecting outcomes with HW2.5. Just to be clear, I am glad that the car gave an alarm to an amber light, but I do not expect it to do it reliably every time.
While we're on the topic, I noticed that the HW2.5 EAP reacts to stop signs, traffic cones/drums, emergency vehicles as well. I shared these observations in other posts, and none of these show up on the screen as visualizations. You just have to observe how the car reacts with/without these visual inputs.

Sarah R | 29/03/2020

It's that an audible alarm?

vmulla | 29/03/2020

Sarah R | March 29, 2020
It's that an audible alarm?
——
It's both audible and an onscreen visual alert.
It's a big red flashing steering wheel on the screen and a screeching audible alert - it was all jarring enough for me to enjoy some choice words from my wife. Which is why we don't have a video of the scenario ;)

EVRider | 29/03/2020

@vmulla: That alerts sounds like AP is telling you to take over immediately, that should have nothing to do with traffic lights.

vmulla | 29/03/2020

@EVRider,
I believe it has everything to do with traffic lights. It happens when the driver is about the violate an amber light, just as it happens when the driver is about to violate a red light. It is an incremental improvement on when the car asks for immediate attention.
Let me get the video to point out what I'm talking about.

lbowroom | 29/03/2020

You can’t violate an Amber light

Magic 8 Ball | 29/03/2020

No surprise to see clueless make bad observations and come to cluess conclusions.

Firewired | 29/03/2020

I am on HW3 with FSD on 2020.12.1. I can see the traffic lights with visualizations turned on. I have never gotten any alerts for the traffic lights.

spuzzz123 | 30/03/2020

Are you certain that it wasn’t AP looking forward to the intersection and not seeing painted lines — and the telling you to take over because of that?

vmulla | 30/03/2020

@spuzzz123,
This is a familiar intersection that I've made other observations on over the years. This is the first time I've experienced anything with an amber light.
BTW, the alerts for a red light, stop sign, painted lines, crosswalks, (maybe others) are all alike - a red steering wheel and a screeching audible alarm.

vmulla | 30/03/2020

@Firewired,
You wouldn't see alerts on the screen with either HW2.5 or HW3 unless the car thinks something was problematic. Not recommended but - if the car approaches a red right at a certain speed and the driver does not touch the controls you will get an alarm, I've now experienced a similar alert with amber lights.
--
I've observed that the software adds features that aren't explicitly noted in the release notes. Just pay attention to the way the car behaves under different conditions across the releases, it's fun to discover the subtle changes.

FISHEV | 30/03/2020

@vmulla "if the car approaches a red right at a certain speed and the driver does not touch the controls you will get an alarm, I've now experienced a similar alert with amber lights."

That is cool. I have HW3 but not FSD. With the roads empty, on my next weekly venture out for supplies, I'm gong to give it a try. I think that is Wednesday.

I definitely see lights, stop signs so it should work. Kind of like Autobraking on steroids that it responds to stop signs and lights not just objects in front of the car.

bddaughe | 30/03/2020

Not sure why people think it's a bad conclusion. Check out page 87 of the October 30, 2019 user's guide:

Stop Light Warning (U.S. only)

While Autosteer or Navigate on Autopilot is in
use, Model 3 displays a warning on the
touchscreen and sounds a chime if it detects
that you are likely to run through a red stop
light. If this happens, TAKE IMMEDIATE
CORRECTIVE ACTION!

The visual and audible warnings cancel after a
few seconds, or when you press the brake
pedal, whichever comes first.

bddaughe | 30/03/2020

In the January guide, there is an additional caveat:

Stop Light Warning (U.S. only)
While Autosteer or Navigate on Autopilot is in
use, Model 3 displays a warning on the
touchscreen and sounds a chime if it detects
that you are likely to run through a red stop
light. If this happens, TAKE IMMEDIATE
CORRECTIVE ACTION!
The visual and audible warnings cancel after a
few seconds, or when you press the brake
pedal, whichever comes first.

bddaughe | 30/03/2020

Oh sorry...meant to post this (ignore previous post please):

Caution: Stop Light and Stop Sign
Warning require the vehicle's map to
know that a particular stop light or stop
sign exists in a certain location. It may be
unaware of new stop lights or stop signs
that are not captured in the map data.
Therefore, Stop Light and Stop Sign
Warning may not detect all stop lights
and stop signs due to potential map
inaccuracies.

And as you can see, it's been extended to stop signs as well.

vmulla | 30/03/2020

@bddaugh,
You're right about the software capabilities extending to stop signs.

It's been a steady improvement in capabilities. Some of my observations over several months are:
https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/stop-light-warning-actually-useful...
https://youtu.be/U3EYcSKrV2Q (video observation of stop SIGN detection, discussed here https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/red-light-stop-light-notificationa...)
https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/traffic-cones-hw25-and-2019362

and now I'm observing amber light alerts - so it's sort of an expected next step, but exciting all the same.

bddaughe | 30/03/2020

Ah OK. Yeah, the manual only discusses red lights. So, perhaps that is a next step they're playing with.

Magic 8 Ball | 30/03/2020

Perhaps or maybe they broke some software (rolleyes).

andy.connor.e | 30/03/2020

Tesla is likely to test and verify something works before putting it in the manual.

bddaughe | 30/03/2020

Ahhh....I didn't read far enough. In the January guide, it also says:

Warning: Stop Light and Stop Sign
Warning are designed to only warn you
when approaching a visible read stop sign,
solid red, or later portion of a yellow
traffic light;

So, the manual confirms your behavior is as you expected.

Magic 8 Ball | 30/03/2020

Can you explain "later portion of a yellow light"? Yellow lights are not consistent in terms of amount of time they are displayed. If I cannot tell "later portion" how would an algorithm?

bddaughe | 30/03/2020

Ask Tesla. That quote is directly from the user guide. Asa programmer, I'm guessing that it knows how long a yellow light is normally displayed before moving to red. The absolute minimum time for a yellow light. So perhaps Tesla starts counting when it turns yellow and maybe alerts if you haven't started slowing after 2 seconds? Your guess is as good as mine. (rolls eyes)

bddaughe | 30/03/2020

Sorry...absolute minimum time for a yellow light is 3 seconds is that I meant to say

vmulla | 30/03/2020

@andy.connor.e,
You're absolutely right. Unless a feature is rock solid Tesla doesn't put it in the manual - they simply push the improvements out. AND they don't acknowledge which bugs were fixed (kind of annoying, but ok)

@bddaughe,
Thanks. Nice to see my observation corroborated with text from your source.

vmulla | 30/03/2020

@bddaughe,
Tesla was likely building data on each traffic light the car encounters for months now. That too is kind of expected, isn't it? That intelligence is pretty much necessary for FSD.

In another thread, someone said the system might get confused because of oddly positioned traffic lights. That might be true initially, but after the car learns from humans I expect FSD to execute accurately.

Magic 8 Ball | 30/03/2020

A guidance is not a requirement:

The Federal Highway Administration's Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices provides guidance that the yellow interval be between three and six seconds without tying the requirement to specific approach velocities.

http://www.shortyellowlights.com/standards/

bddaughe | 30/03/2020

Why are you saying Tesla is wrong? Are you promoting FUD?

bddaughe | 30/03/2020

;-)

Magic 8 Ball | 30/03/2020

I never said Tesla is wrong, I am asking questions, you know being Socratic.

The one person claiming the yellow light recognition is functioning has a history here of poor observation and poor conclusions. Have you read anyone else report this yellow light behavior is functioning for them?

Hopefully no one here will try to rely on that feature until much more verification is established.

andy.connor.e | 30/03/2020

Dont give light to that which you do not want to be seen.

FISHEV | 30/03/2020

"While Autosteer or Navigate on Autopilot is in use" per manual

So are people without FSD's Navigate on Autopilot getting the warning because they are using AutoSteer?

bddaughe | 30/03/2020

To me, this is another way Tesla is trying to make things as safe as possible. I would say the majority of people never see it because they don't plow through red (or late yellow - haha) lights. The manual has several caveats that show the limitations of this feature. I don't think vmulla was suggesting everyone fly through lights until the car alerts you. Instead, I got the impression he was excited about how far the software in our cars has come since we first got our cars. It's exciting as these are all steps towards Tesla being able to do self-driving on city roads.

andy.connor.e | 30/03/2020

Pretty cool that not too long ago the software had just been updated to show traffic lights on the console. Then it recognized red lights, now its recognizing yellow lights. Pretty cool to see it come together.

Magic 8 Ball | 30/03/2020

"now its recognizing yellow lights"

How many have verified this is functioning?

andy.connor.e | 30/03/2020

I've counted one so far. How many have you come across?

Magic 8 Ball | 30/03/2020

Just the one and that comes from a source that said Tesla broke software to create A/C stink.

bddaughe | 30/03/2020

Serious question - If it's in the manual, why should there be reason to doubt it?

Magic 8 Ball | 30/03/2020

I doubt everything until it is verified and that includes all books and manuals I read.

vmulla | 30/03/2020

This dude is about willful mischarecterization to suit his narrative (or idiot comprehension, take your pick)

bddaughe | 30/03/2020

Then follow your advice and go verify everything in the manual and then come back and report to us.

Magic 8 Ball | 30/03/2020

Why? I do not take orders from anyone here. If you want to take the word of a parrot good on you, I prefer that people use science not hearsay.

FISHEV | 30/03/2020

@bddaughte "To me, this is another way Tesla is trying to make things as safe as possible. I would say the majority of people never see it because they don't plow through red (or late yellow - haha) lights."

Majority likely don't have AutoSteer on when on roads with traffic lights. Same with Navigate on Autopilot which manual says is for major highway only.

Someone said they got the alert to go off by purposely running a light with no traffic around. My question, per the manual, was whether they had AutoSteer or NOA on.

Reading the manual is fine but the updates frequently add or change features from what is in the printed manual.

bddaughe | 30/03/2020

Wow, Fish and M8B on the same page. Did hell freeze over? ;-)

FISHEV | 30/03/2020

Oy...just looking for an on topic answer to the question. When people get the alert running a light do the have AutoSteer or NOP on?

vmulla | 30/03/2020

The alert happened when I was on EAP. I do not know if the same alert would come if it wasn't on EAP - I hope it does.

Magic 8 Ball | 30/03/2020

Hospitals are overloaded, to verify a safety feature like this you have to be driving dangerously, this is not a difficult equation.

FISHEV | 30/03/2020

vmulla | March 30, 2020 The alert happened when I was on EAP. I do not know if the same alert would come if it wasn't on EAP - I hope it does."

Thanks. Answers my question. I only have basic AP so I likely will not get any alert.

EVRider | 30/03/2020

@FISHEV: The manual says the alert is active when you use Autosteer or Navigate on Autopilot. Basic AP includes Autosteer, so you would see the alert too if you used Autosteer on roads with traffic lights.

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