Peter Thiel, friend of Elon to speak tonight

Peter Thiel, friend of Elon to speak tonight

It will be interesting to see if he brings up Tesla or. Space X

SCCRENDO | 21/07/2016

He had nothing the to do with SpaceX and Tesla. He is likely just being brought in as a character witness for Trump to show his support for gays. Not sure his appearance would excite Mike Pence. He would encourage the religious right not to serve him in their restaurants.

Mel. | 21/07/2016

So the 30 million he invested with Elon in Space X was?

As a snowflake you should know this is not your cup of tea. I like people that invested in Tesla and Space X.

SCCRENDO | 21/07/2016

Good for you or Mel. But Pence probably doesn't want to do business with gays..

Mel. | 21/07/2016

I agree with you . I do not like Pence... However, I do like Tesla and Space X .. I hope Peter brings up how Elon is important for this country. I would like to see Tesla and Space X brought up at both conventions

SCCRENDO | 21/07/2016

Mel so would I but I doubt it. Trump cares about neither EVs nor space exploration.

robert.s.bjekich | 21/07/2016

Watch the convention. You may learn something.

carlk | 21/07/2016

No Trump does not care about Tesla at all. This is what he cares. Pretty frightening.

mschaffer11 | 21/07/2016

We will learn nothing reality based from the Republican propaganda fest.

SCCRENDO | 21/07/2016

@Robert. I'm watching. But I have learnt nothing new. Trump is still an egomaniac sprouting the same lies. He is clueless. Biggest problem is we don't really know what he will do. He is pro fossil fuel, anti EV, an isolationist. We will be doing our own Brexit from the world. And who knows what he will do with powerful weapons in his hands

ram1901 | 21/07/2016

Folks really need to open their minds and stop stereotyping every Republican.

Quoting Peter Thiel: "I'm proud to be gay, I'm proud to be a Republican and I'm proud to be an American"
After which he was cheered and and applauded by the RNC audience.

Note: Thiel invests in both Tesla and SpaceX. Do you honestly think he would endorse Trump if he
felt that his investments are going to be threatened by a Trump Presidency?

Trump favors an American 'all of the above' energy policy which includes Solar, Wind, Hydro, Nuclear, oil, gas and yes, even coal. As alternative sources to fossil fuels grow in use and popularity we will see a gradual decline in the use of those fuels, but the reality is the world currently runs on fossil fuels and the transition to alternative energy as the dominate source of power or fuel is going to take time and a reasoned approach that balances social, environmental and economy concerns.

SCCRENDO | 21/07/2016

One heartbeat away would be Mike Pence. Thief has sold out his soul. Trump may be less anti gay than mainstream Republicans particularly Pence, but the party itself does not have a good track record with gays. Trump is a climate change denier as was everyone of the Republican primary candidates. Do not know the percentage of Republicans in Congress and the Senate are deniers but I bet it's high. I guess Thiel will be dumping his Tesla and Space X shares if he has not already. If you believe that a Trump administration with a Republican Senate and House will be environmentally friendly and support space exploration I have a bridge to sell you in New Jersey.
He will support coal, fracking and oil drilling but will withdraw subsidies for alternative energies. He's a denier why would he spend money on alternate energies.

SCCRENDO | 22/07/2016
Mel. | 22/07/2016

So Peter did bring up Rockets and Mars.

He is for a pro American energy policy... This differs from the snowflakes that want to help Saudi Arabia.

RedShift | 22/07/2016

What are snowflakes? Why do they want to help Saudi Arabia?

SCCRENDO | 22/07/2016

@Mel Pro American is Republican speak for supporting American industries without regulation such as coal mining, fracking, keystone pipeline and unregulated oil drilling.
@Redshift Haven't taken much note of what they are talking about with "snowflakes" but it is a term that the troll Van Perley also seems to throw around. It is republican attack style initiated by Foxnews and perfected by Donald Trump. Give someone a label such as "lying Ted", "crooked Hillary" etc. They continue to use it and often ends up sticking despite being incorrect. A good strategy to use I suppose when you cannot refute their facts.

Mel. | 22/07/2016

On this forum I believe snowflake refers to someone who is overly sensitive. Someone that only wants to hear the same opinion that they have and does not want any discussion or disagreement.
This thread was started to talk about Peter Thiel. He is a friend of Elon and has been a big supported of Space X..
Some only want to talk about Trump or Pence, which they have done on other threads.

As all know Saudi Arabia imports oil to this country. Some of us would rather use American natural gas . Of course solar is preferred but not yet available for all our energy need.
I did enjoy Peter Thiel short talk. Elon would have enjoyed it .

carlk | 22/07/2016

People wanted to lump Trump and Sanders together as anti-establishment candidates. They forgot Bernie has a net worth of $300K which is less than 0.01% of Trump's. Trump IS the establishment. He got to where he is using exactly strategies he says did averge Americans wrong. Nothing is wrong with wanting to get rich but what he said and done are pure hypocrisy. He's going to ruin the economy instead of giving those "angry Americans" their good jobs back. Not sure if those Trump supporters know it or not their vote can only be a protest vote but not practical vote. Trump and Trump campaign sure know that. They are doing their best to manipulate it to the best of their benifit, not to the suporters benifit. People will have the rude awakening the day after he is elected to see the stock market crashed and their retirement fund gone. Just mark my words.

vp09 | 22/07/2016

I was pleased as well to see Peter Thiel speak. I looked him up on Wikipedia and read about him.

Nice analysis ram1901.

I have no idea what "snowflake" means or why it would have to do with being sensitive.

Coal. I lived in Ohio and West Virginia for nearly 10 years. Lots of people make their living due to coal. More nationwide from gas and oil. What do we do with that part of our economy? Can't just shut it down and wait for solar and wind to replace it all. I'd like to see the candidates talk about cleaner fossil fuel use.

SCCRENDO | 22/07/2016

Coal mines are shutting down naturally because of lack of demand. Yes these people need to be employed. But to reopen coal mines and stimulate coal use is counter productive. Some of us would suggest it's a crime against humanity. These poor folk need to be retrained in other jobs. Perhaps creating a solar factory or giga-factory in West Virginia would be the way to go.

Mel. | 22/07/2016

Please google sensitive and snowflake.
You probable have heard of the wussification of the young. Or snowflake students.

vp09 | 22/07/2016

Mel, got it, thanks!
Urban Dictionary: special little snowflake
A below average kid who is coddled and rewarded for mediocrity, usually by an overprotective mother, a 'sensitive' dad, or the public education sys...

vp09 | 22/07/2016

SCCrendo, agreed. I hope we find a way to use cleaner coal. And nuclear energy. "Too cheap to meter," they said at one point.

Mel. | 22/07/2016

You probably have a better explanation.
I have enjoyed your use of it

sabbia | 22/07/2016

Peter Thiele's writings:

"Most importantly, I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible. By tracing out the development of my thinking, I hope to frame some of the challenges faced by all classical liberals today."

"The 1920s were the last decade in American history during which one could be genuinely optimistic about politics. Since 1920, the vast increase in welfare beneficiaries and the extension of the franchise to women [my emphasis] — two constituencies that are notoriously tough for libertarians — have rendered the notion of 'capitalist democracy' into an oxymoron."


ram1901 | 22/07/2016

SCCRENDO.Ca.US - As a registered independent with 'clearly' conservative values, I would support an energy policy that eliminates ALL subsidies to ALL energy sections so that ALL energy sections can compete on an equal footing. Until they get rid of oil/gas subsidies, (direct or indirect) as well as solar and EV subsidies (in the tax code), we'll never be able to resolve our differences over a reasonable national energy policy.

In the meantime, I've owned Limited Partnership stock shares in oil and gas drillers and the like and have received the tax benefit of that ownership and I've owned hybrids and now a Tesla from which I've benefited by the tax benefits provided under the law.

I'm for a level playing field and a reasonable energy/environmental policies that balances social, environmental and economy concerns. Would love to see people of all political strips come together on this.

P.S. Doubt that Peter Thiel will divest his investments in Tesla or Solar City. In my world it's possible to support companies like Tesla and Solar City and support Trump.

RedShift | 22/07/2016

@mel, vp, ram , etc.

Some of would like to neither use saudi nor american fossil fuels.

Yes, those good folks employed by the coal industry stand to lose their livelihood. Did you cry for those employed in the horse trading or fodder industries when fossil fuels replaced grass and fodder for the horses? Did you cry when computers and robots replaced thousands of workers who did menial jobs? I doubt you even think about it, eh, my 'empathetic conservative?' I am all for a balanced approach and all that, but some of you conservatives hate the term 'global warming' and love fossils so much, its really appalling, how you folks deny science in the name of being empathetic to coal workers.

You guys also cry when capitalism is at work balancing labor costs by going to China, India and other places. On one hand, you LOVE capitalism. When it works as its supposed to, you don't like the results. In a developed nation with a high cost of living and living standards, labor will never be cheap. But you don't want to think about such inconvenient facts.

Do you have your heads screwed on straight, my dear conservatives? Stop carrying on with idiotic terms like 'snow flakes' and claim that these 'snowflakes' support for Saudi oil. Its ignorant, childish, and silly.

Wake up, understand that there big problems no one can be reasonably expected to fix. Not your orange toupee'd megalomaniac, not Hillary, not Cruz, not Bernie.

At the very core, the problem ks very simple : too many people, too few resources and jobs. Overpopulation takes a long time to resolve. Possibly centuries. Until then, there will be more violence and chaos, possibly big wars at the end.

Stop whining and get used to it. Now, you can call me un-American, or pessimist or whatever, I couldn't care two $hits about it.

carlk | 22/07/2016


Do you really think those Republicans and Trump care about it when capitalism worked and jobs went oversea? They just loved it. They are only using that now to get votes to grab more power so they could keep the status quo to continue benefit themselves. Like I said earlier you can believe Bernie when he says he has compassion and wants to fight for the weakest. How foolish those "angry Americans" could be to believe that the con artist Trump is here for their good.

BTW Elon Musk has signed the giving pledge. Neither Trump nor Thiel did. Just tells you how sincere they are when they say they want good of all people. No I agree it's their money they could do anything they want with it. I just hate the hypocricy.

RedShift | 22/07/2016

My dear Carl,

Trump does not want to become president. Period. He just wanted to see if he could win the nomination.

He wont tell us about his tax returns. His VP candidate won't tell us about his time in the congress till 2022. Just to name two things. If I start listing all the bad things, I will run out of room in a single post.

These folks like to shout 'lock her up' or worse- 'she should be shot!' About Hillary. If they had an iota of fairness in their brains, they would be shouting the same things about both of these men purportedly running for the highest offices in the government.

Its not about the presidency for this fella. Its about image and a possible remaking of that image to get richer. Mark Cuban said it first. I think he is on to something.

carlk | 22/07/2016

I'm not sure if it's true he never wanted to become president but you could be right. No wonder the Republican establishment hates him so much.

Mel. | 22/07/2016

You really must be a retard
This thread is not about Trump, we explained to you what words mean and you are too stupid stay on topic

SCCRENDO | 22/07/2016

Mel you may have started this thread but making Thiel the subject you have made it about Trump. Thiel is a trump puppet.

Mel. | 22/07/2016

You may believe that.. But I was hoping for people speaking at both conventions to bring up at least some of what Elon is tiring to accomplish.

I also was hoping for a discussion of what some of our great thinkers are thinking. I do not think Thiel is a Republican, but he is very pro American. I really get tired of the political debate ..I can watch South Park and get everything that is important.

RedShift | 22/07/2016


And you are too stupid to be anything other than conservative. Thiel spoke at the convention for the almighty, and I spoke of him. Tangential, I agree, but, to use your own idiotic metaphor, "don't be a snowflake".

RedShift | 22/07/2016

Btw, try to answer my post about fossil fuels, and other subjects, is that still on topic, your think skinned highness?

Mel. | 22/07/2016

Red, Touché

Mel. | 22/07/2016

Ok, let's look at energy. I do not want coal used anywhere around me. I also prefer American natural gas over Saudi oil.. Is this what you disagree with? Peter Thiels approach is similar. No?

RedShift | 22/07/2016

No, I don't disagree.

However, I don't want coal. Period. Not near me, not in China if I could help it.
I love nuclear. I also grrudgingly like US Natural Gas. (Not many libs do, but I could argue with them why they should love Nuclear, some time) However, I do not deny global warming, caused by humans.

Problem is not with Thiel. Problem is he does not understand what supporting Trump means. He cannot, for example articulate HOW is it that Trump is going to bring the jobs back. He just says he 'believes Trump can do it'.

Look, you can vote for whom you want, and you can pray to whom you want, none of my busniess. However, when you pillory the rival candidate and chant 'lock her up', and one thug says 'she should be shot', then that's not a civil society behavior. Israelis (I believe) drew parallels to the similar taunting against Rabin before he was shot by a right wing lunatic.

So, when Thiel is there, at such an angry, negative and chaotic convention and pretends everything is going to be fine by voting Trump, I am just appalled. Sure, he invested in companies I believe in, and I do believe there were problems between him and Elon at Paypal (if I remember correctly), but that does not mean Thiel suddenly gets to be a golden boy.

ram1901 | 22/07/2016

Thiel is one of you.
The difference is he has learned to think for himself, to analyze the facts and make reasoned choices.

What I'm reading here is group-think based on heresy and no effort to weigh the pros and cons of a given situation. Many of the above comments appear to be from 10 years olds having a school yard fight instead of adults talking about the highest elected office in the land. Do you actually either own a Tesla and/or own stock in Tesla or Solar City? I own a Tesla and so have a vested interest in seeing Tesla succeed but when I see closed minded group think like this on a Tesla forum it makes me wonder what sort of company I'm keeping.

Amazing how quickly you all turn on one of your own just because he gives his support to Trump. Did you ever consider that he may see something about Trump that you are all missing? He didn't make his billions by being stupid or by making bad decisions and the fact that he is invested in Tesla and Solar City should be all you need to know about him to accept him as one of your own. Presidential elections are always a choice between the better of two evils and never about a perfect candidate. God knows neither Trump or HC are perfect, far from it, but Thiel believes Trump will do a better job of dealing with the big issues facing this country and the world. (based on his comments at the convention.)

SCCRENDO | 22/07/2016

@ram. So everyone who disagrees with you is a 10 year old. I am glad you guys are supporters of Tesla and Solar City and as a consequence helping in the fight against climate change. Many of us here understand climate change and in my case was the prime reason I bought myself a Model S and 2 more Model 3s to come. I also plastered my roof with solar panels. Not sure why you guys are supporting the cause but thank you.
Based on the above philosophy there is no debate for many of us that Hillary and the Democratic Party is the only choice in this election. Donald is clearly a climate change denier as was every single Republican primary candidate. His Vice President is at the far extreme. Donald thinks that climate change is a hoax perpetuated by the Chinese. His energy adviser is a fossil fuel guy. Donald with a Republican congress will cut. EV rebates from the budget, will encourage fracking, coal mining and drilling in our national parks and Alaska. Will support Keystone. He is edging for a fight with China and if he starts with tariffs guess what. Other countries will impose tariffs on US products such as Tesla. Many other reasons for me not to vote for these clowns but for the purpose of this discussion enough said
Where does Thiel fit in. Firstly is he an environmentalist or just a smart businessman out for a quick buck. Any self respecting gay would not dignify this party. Even if Donald is more tolerant he has a disgusting bigoted Vice President and is supporting a party with an anti gay platform. As a Jew I do not show up at clubs with signs "no dogs or Jews allowed". I am not sure he is an environmentalist. I am guessing that he new Elon from PayPal and had faith in him as a businessman. But if Trump is president he will sell off a whole lot of stock and invest in fossil fuels, GM, the gun industry and remain rich

RedShift | 22/07/2016


Dont start with the ' 10 year old svhool yard' analogy. I could say look at the convention, tell me who the 10 year old ( or much younger) folks are.

To address the 'he is one of you' comment - I am in silicon valley, and I am an entrepreneur, but that does not mean Thiel is one of 'us'. (Who is 'them' then?) he is gay, he is a tech investor, and that is why he was paraded like a trophy. How many leaders of the valley disagree with him? Almost everyone, including republian CEOs. You think he 'sees something others don't'? What can it be? Is it his detailed plan how to bring ghe jobs back? No, that does not exist. Is it his plan to build a wall that Mexico will pay for? No, that does not exist either. Is it the blatantly anti LGBT agenda? No, that cannot be it either.

He was asked, 'how do you think Trump will make America great again?' And he could not articulate how. Did you read my post where I mentioned this very thing about Thiel before spouting off rubbish about '10 year old level' and how you are upset at the company you are keeping on this board? ( I could care less what you think of the forum, seeing as you are welcome to not come here if you don't like, but I am going to hold off writing anything like that )

ram1901 | 23/07/2016

@SC... @Red...
That's better. Now we're speaking like adults.
We all want a clean environment and we all want to do what is necessary to provide a safe world for future generations. That's a common goal but the approach to getting there is where there is disagreement.

I'm certain you know all of the arguments by the so called deniers about Global warming, now called climate change, formerly called Global cooling. We can all agree that the climate changes.
What we do not agree on is how much humans actually impact the climate and whether efforts to rapidly reduce their use of fossil fuels can be accomplished with minimal disruption to life as we know it.

Trump, the GOP and those being considered for positions that will impact our environment support an energy policy that includes all forms of energy production; wind, solar, hydro, nuclear and of course, fossil fuels.
Some in the GOP would, like you, like to see an eventual phasing out of the use of fossil fuels replaced by renewable energy sources but they recognize that the world currently runs on fossil fuels and the process to transition will take time and requires careful planning to take into account the social, economic and environmental impacts of such a move. Until we can compromise on a reasonable approach to achieve these goals both sides will continue to use their inflammatory words to describe the other and hunker down into their bunkers of belief systems.

As for your view that the GOP hates gays -- let's examine the re-characterization of that view:

Mike Pence, like doctrinally correct evangelical Christian, believes that God loves all of us (gay, straight, male, female, trans, you name it) and that, as Christians, we are to love our fellow man as Christ loved us.

Evangelical Christians do NOT hate gays. They believe, as scripture teaches, that homosexuality is a sin but, like Christ, they do NOT hate those who sin against God, but rather, like Christ, hate the sin they commit which is an offense to God.
They/we do NOT support that hateful, independent church group (Westboro Baptist) that hates gays. We are as offended by that church and it's thinking as you are.

Up until the extreme LGBT movement started forcing their belief system on the rest of the country, Christians were content to sit back and allow others live as those choose to live as long as it did not interfere with their belief system.

What has changed, in the just last 4 years, is the extreme push to ignore Christian belief systems and force all to believe in a different belief system. Christians have as much right to believe that scripture is the inherent Word of God as the LGBT community and/or certain wings of the Democrat party have to believe what they believe.

So once again, while you may disagree with Evangelical Christian's beliefs, even as you have the right to disagree, we/they have the right to disagree with you. It is NOT a one way street.

Hope this helps clarify some of the misunderstandings and hyperbole (group think) statements we often hear in these battles over climate change and the gay rights debate.

Can't believe I'm doing this on a website devoted to a company that makes EV's and alternative power sources.

SCCRENDO | 23/07/2016

@ram. Disagreement 1. I have been speaking as an adult all along. Ram Global warming is natural however man has been making a significant contribution since the industrial revolution and man's contributionis severely impacting the environment. This is causing severe consequences and needs to be reversed. The evidence is all there and is on many threads. If you want to reopen the discussion here, be my guest. But we need to address it now. Anyone who denies this has some financial, political or other reason or is just plain ignorant.

This doublespeak about gays is total BS. In South Africa where I grew up its amazing how the government explained that apartheid was good for blacks. Refusing to serve gays (see Pence) is like refusing to serve blacks and Jews bases on race or religion

RedShift | 23/07/2016


1. Climate change and AGW have one very important differntiation. You deny humans caused it, against majority scientific opinion, and still want the environment to get better. I wish I knew why you would want to do that, but I am not going to get into that. Years of being on this forum have taught me that nothing good will come out of that discussion. Unless you understand the problem, you won't find a solution. That is all I am going to say.

2. So, Pence does not discriminate against gays, but tried to pass a law allowing anyone to not serve LGBT folks citing religious beliefs. Ah, I see. So next time, one can hide behind their religious beliefs and hate LGBTs. Do you even see how transparent you folks' motives are here? Why this is just doublespeak and a slippery slope? No? That's why I think conservatives are not all that intelligent. (go and call me arrogant, elitist, whatever, I don't care)

ram1901 | 23/07/2016

Just because someone does not agree with your point of view does not mean they're ignorant or that they have an ulterior motive. It could be because their reading on the subject points them to a different point of view.

Climate change is natural, as you point out, and the degree to which humankind impacts it is what remains up for debate. There are numerous views and studies counter to those that take the view that humankind has a major impact on climate change. Not going to get into the game of providing links. You know of these scientists and climatologist who hold a different view. You just choose to ignore them and hold fast to your belief. That's your choice.

The South African government position on apartheid has nothing to do with Biblical views of love toward one's fellow man. In fact, you could argue that the current administrations push to silence those whose belief system disagrees with the views of the LGBT community is another form of apartheid toward Christians.

Mike83 | 23/07/2016

There is NO debate about man causing Climate Disruption by burning fossil fuels. Only Fossil Fuel interests have been funding pseudoscience and some sort of political religion to say its not happening. That is bunk.
The gullible or paid to lie will continue their belief in fantasy. Like an alcoholic in denial they don't want to admit that they are the problem but prefer to blame others and scapegoat people who disagree. It is so obvious and boring.

SCCRENDO | 23/07/2016

@ram. We have debated the science with deniers who are far more informed than you. I accept that you don't want to post links because you don't have any. When I have evidence on my side I can post a quick link in second. I stand by my characterization of deniers. When you are capable and willing to debate your denial get back to me.
As regards the South African government please trust me. I lived there 32 years. They had the bible supporting every despicable edict. They even blamed the drought on women wearing mini skirts. Pence is a well spoken bible puncher using religion to discriminate against gays.

Ross1 | 24/07/2016

You said: " They even blamed the drought on women wearing mini skirts ".

And were they right?
Do you have indisputable evidence that women in mini skirts did not cause the drought?
I will allow you the benefit of the doubt and allow women out of mini skirts also.
In fact how do you know that women didn't cause the drought?
Also, please provide links.

BTW, I am in New Zealand and the proximity of @... is getting to me...:)

bb0tin | 24/07/2016

This is a repost from another thread, but the point in the last paragraph should be considered:

Unfortunately we have already passed the point of no return.

The ocean temperatures are now so warm that the West Antarctic ice sheets will melt, raising sea levels by several meters. There is nothing that can be done about this now. Major cities around the world will be flooded. It is now only a question of by how much and how quickly. The general population does not appreciate that this is the case, and that their silence, dilly dallying and denial has caused it.

The air temperatures are rising very quickly. We are now getting reasonable positive feedbacks with ice melt, forest burning, and permafrost melting.
The Arctic is melting at unprecedented rates and uncovering water and land which absorbs yet more heat.
The forests are burning releasing more CO2, removing the trees as a CO2 sink, and exposing the ground which releases yet more GHG. It is a triple wammy.
The permafrost is losing snow cover and warming and then melting. It is now releasing CO2 and methane in concentrations hundreds and thousands of times the atmospheric concentration. This is a double wammy.

Then there is still the methane clathrates which, if they release their methane, will pretty much make the earth uninhabitable for most of humanity.

There is no stopping this because of our pathetic response to the threat which we have known about for decades. The global temperature will not be kept below 2C, causing catastropic outcomes, and may get to 6C. A rise anywhere near 6C will make many parts of the world uninhabitable without air conditioning, and our civilisation as we know it will collapse. This is the unpalatable truth. It is a truth caused by denial and a selfish uncaring attitude. It is a truth that can be mitigated, but it requires immediate, massive and prolonged action. We will end up with a better world eventually, but in the short term we will suffer greatly.

When will people realise this? When will they realise to what they are condemning their children and grandchildren and their children? When will they realise that by doing nothing they are contributing to mass suffering and death. When will they realise that by voting for Climate Change deniers, they are taking an active part in this mass suffering and death? When will they realise that now is the time to act, and that nobody else can prevent an abominable future for mankind?

SCCRENDO | 24/07/2016

@bb0tin. +1. Important repost
@Ross. No I don't have proof but scientifically disproving something is a lot more difficult. I will go out on a limb and say the studies were not done. However I would suggest that when someone makes an outrageous statement that the wearing of miniskirts by young ladies cause drought the onus would be on the claimant to show evidence.
That would be the issue with climate change deniers on these forums. They make outrageous statements without any evidence and except us to disprove their ridiculous claims. Most have no supporting data. Mitch is one who I would credit as being able to come up with data except that his data is usually wrong and he doesn't understand his data well enough to defend it.

bb0tin | 24/07/2016

Ross has previously posted that he accepts Climate Change and claimed that he had done much to combat it, although he hadn't.