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China to penalize US automaker

China to penalize US automaker

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/12/14/china-to-penalise-us-automaker-for-monopo...

Would anyone guess what this is about?

After Trump breached "One China policy," then comes this news that China is going to punish US automaker for Monopolistic Behavior.

China denied the timing and says it is not a retaliation for Trump's violation of the treaty because the Monopolistic Behavior case started since 2014, not now.

Has this got to do with Tesla because Elon handed keys to first 9 owners in China also in 2014?

poloX | 14/12/2016

@Tam,
I scanned thru the whole document without reading, I don't see a single word of Tesla anywhere. What makes you think it was Tesla? I read about the possibility of Trump raising Chinese Tariff by 40%. To me, that is the real drive for this. Just didn't expect the Chinese take pre-empty strike. :o) Guess what, we all loose if they fight whether on the economic battle ground or over S. China Sea, or over Taiwan or over whatever...

dyefrog | 14/12/2016

Coincidence?
Shares of General Motors (GM) fell 3 percent Wednesday after a report said China will penalize an unnamed U.S. automaker for monopolistic behavior.
Shares of American automaker Ford Motor (NYSE:F) declined nearly 1.9 percent on the day.
Investigators found the unnamed U.S. automaker instructed distributors to fix prices starting back in 2014, the official China Daily newspaper reported, citing Zhang Handong, director of the National Development and Reform Commission's price supervision bureau.
The report said it would be the second penalty issued by the NDRC this month.
On Tuesday, GM asked the Supreme Court to overturn an earlier ruling that its 2009 bankruptcy filing did not shield it from lawsuits related to its faulty ignition switches.

carlk | 14/12/2016

It's a joke that China accuses any company of monopolistic behavior. About 25% of the country's economy is owned by big state owned corporations. Chinese government is the largest monopolistic identity the world has ever seen.

bigd | 14/12/2016

CarlK - spot on, It amazes me anytime China criticizes another country on, well, about anything.

brando | 15/12/2016

China should learn from the US. We don't criticize all the time. We bomb, drone killings, invade, sell arms, rendition and send to secret prisons for torture (excuse me, enhanced interrogation). Yeah, we really need to be afraid. Other countries think they are the only ones to be invaded. The British invaded US twice already. War of Independance and again in 1812 just after we had invaded Canada hoping to free Canada while the British busy with The Napoleonic Wars (1803–1815). Only god knows how US managed to stay free from invasion before WWII when we became the world's largest Military Industrial Complex.

carlk | 15/12/2016

Hating the US so much?

SCCRENDO | 15/12/2016

@carlk. Brando makes a good point. We do a lot of that stuff in self defense but we do cross lines often. Some of those tactics were discontinued under Obama. And frankly in this world we likely need to continue a lot of that. But we cannot always claim the moral high ground.

carlk | 15/12/2016

Two wrongs never make one right.

SCCRENDO | 15/12/2016

@carlk. There are many reasons to criticize China and we should. However in diplomacy much bad stuff goes on. China is an important ally with whom to seek common ground and we sometimes need to overlook stuff. Nothing is to be gained by annoying them and going into conflict. Brando make a good point though. Often the US does some bad stuff. Things have been a lot better under Obama. I believe the drone program for example keeps us safe. However many outside the country frown upon it.

carlk | 15/12/2016

Canada is an ally, Great Britain is an ally, Japan is an ally. These countries when going to war will be on our side. China is a rival if not a potential enemy, Sorry it is not an ally.

SCCRENDO | 15/12/2016

Business ally. I am not thinking war at this point. If we are good business allies we try avoid war.

SCCRENDO | 15/12/2016

Btw. I am not sure Japan comes to our military defense. But we do come to theirs

carlk | 15/12/2016

Business partner, not ally, is a better description. That's why some of the comments were made. As much as I don't agree with Trump on pretty much everthing China indeed does not play fair on trader matters. Tesla has to pay large import duties to sell cars in China that makes it much less competitive compares to locally produced cars including locally produced foreign brands.

We had a major war with Japan, Germany and Italy but we do have mutual defense treaties with all of them, via NATO with the later two. It's considered we are attaked if any of them is and vice versa. As much as some questionalbe things we've done in the past we are also a stablizing force in Europe and Asia now. Russia and China are not exactly what you can call nice guys.

SCCRENDO | 16/12/2016

Russia is a real threat. I would agree that China are not to be completely trusted but we have a pretty good business relationship and I think it can be nurtured. But we should not play childish games as Trump has been doing. We need their help in North Korea. Need to work out some kind of deal in the South China sea. If we push them we could trigger a confrontation there. A war with China or Russia is best avoided.

SO | 16/12/2016

One typically does not want to blow up their customer. It is important to remain business allies with China....albeit on fair terms.

carlk | 16/12/2016

@SCCRENDO

I do too and I wish the world is perfect. Unfortunately it is not. That said west Europe is closer to perfection than anyone else. Great Britain, France, Germany... were enemies and had been in constant wars with each other almost forever until the last big one but we can be pretty sure now they will never be having a war with each other again. I hope other countries will not have to go through something like that to learn. Anyway as a good trade partner China has to play by the same rule. Anyone who's in business with China knows we've been taken advantage of for so long whether Trump has said it or not. As for a war with China like @Soudman_S90D said it has zero chance to happen. Both US and Chinese stock indexes will drop 90% when the first shot is fired. No one on either side would want to see that happen.

SCCRENDO | 16/12/2016

@carlk. The EU prevents wars. So Brexit and the possible collapse of the EU concern me.I also hope Trump does not mess with NATO. I agree neither China nor the US want war with each other. But I remain very concerned about Trump. He is pushing China's buttons. If we remain good trading partners and in fact expand trade war will not happen.

SCCRENDO | 16/12/2016

Looks like China is ramping up to test Trump. Even though he is just president elect his attitude to China has not been helpful.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-38347221

Tâm | 16/12/2016

@poloX

No, there is not a single word of Tesla in the article but there are coincidences not mentioned by the article.

China stated the violation started in 2014 and Tesla was the only car company that just delivered its very first batch of 9 cars during that years.

That alone doesn't mean much but a coincidence.

@SCCRENDO

Thanks for the article.

Trump loves to pick a fight just about with any one: Mexicans, Muslim, judge Curiel due to his “Mexican heritage” and then China.

He's been making peace with Russia but provoking China.

It's hard to know whether this will only lead to war of words and trades and hopefully not real physical violent armed war!

TeslaTap.com | 16/12/2016

carlk "Two wrongs never make one right."

Reminds me that two Wongs can make a Wright, so long as the Wong's female baby grows up and marries a Wright and takes his last name!

carlk | 16/12/2016

So Wong could still become Wright?

bigd | 16/12/2016

SCCRENDO | December 16, 2016
"Russia is a real threat". HMMMM, did not mitt say that in 2012 election and was mocked by dems and the president ? Don't you remember we hit the reset button with them.

"Looks like China is ramping up to test Trump." My gosh man, have you not read what China has done for the last 3 years. You can NOT blame trump for this, it is all on the present President.

Tâm | 16/12/2016

@bigd

It is true that China has already increased its military presence in the South China sea in recent years so this tension has been there way before Trump.

The problem is whether Trump's words such as China is "raping our country" will not be responded.

After all when Trump is still doing fine when said about Mexico "When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."

Now, Trump added his words: "I fully understand the "one China" policy, but I don't know why we have to be bound by a "one China" policy unless we make a deal with China having to do with other things, including trade."

It's possible that like Mexico, China will not retaliate.

However, shadowing a US military ship then swiping its drone right in front of the USNS Bowditch is quite a whole new level for China.

SCCRENDO | 16/12/2016

@Tam +1
@bigd. Russia has always been a strong competitor. With the fall of communism there was some hope of a reset. Hillary and Obama certainly tried. And I agreed with them. Unfortunately Putin has expansionist policies and probably wants to recreate the USSR. By his invasions of Georgia and Ukraine and Syrian policy he has shown that he is not the partner we hoped for. It is obviously in our interests to work with him. Contrary to what Republicans claim the Iran deal was a great deal and couldn't have gone down without Russia and China. We also need to work with Putin in Syria although not ideal and keeping Assad in power is the compromise we need to make. But the sanctions need to remain until he pulls out of Ukraine including Crimea. It will be a sad day if we drop sanctions to support Trump's business interests and Tillerson's.

China has shown some aggression in the South China Sea but we have been doing pretty well with them. It's pretty obvious that in the past few days they have become more aggressive in response to Trumps anti China comments and Him cozying up to Taiwan. What will happen remains to be seen and perhaps his attitude is the way to go. But most experts would suggest that he is behaving like a bombastic novice and it is not helpful.

carlk | 16/12/2016

Guys don't be so naive. You don't know what we are against and it has nothing to do with Taiwan or South China Sea. Our billion dollar companies are agiant a trillion dollar company that is not restrained by any laws.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes-great-brain-robbery-china-cyber-e...

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/1928208-china-security-the-inner-working...

SCCRENDO | 16/12/2016

@carlk. Cyber warfare is a different kind of warfare and we are doing our fair share. A lot of this is unseen so its hard to know who is winning. But conventional warfare with China. Not a good idea

Tâm | 16/12/2016

@carlk

What those articles talking about is China practice of economic warfare by stealing intellectual properties.

The problem is although the US condemns such practice verbally but in real life the US actually supports such practice by avoiding buying made-in-USA and keep buying China's products and services.

One example from the article is US windmill company's secrete is stolen by China. Then the US loves to buy from China's company for cheaper price instead of doing the right thing by buying from US company with a higher price.

The US hates China verbally but they love China in action by voting with their pockets.

The US hates China for taking away US manufacturing jobs such as assembling the Iphones but then the US just loves to vote with their wallets by buying Iphones made in China.

If the US hates China then it should stop buying from China and only buy from US.

But the US keeps buying from China and then bad mouthing about China.

Bad mouthing may work for a while but when it starts to translate into military conflicts, it's another higher level of escalation.

Logically, military escalation will never happen because both side will be hurt real bad.

Forget about trade wars, economic espionage, intellectual thiefs... Those are small problems when comparing with Trump, it's hard to say whether conventional or even nuclear wars won't happen.

carlk | 17/12/2016

@SCCRENDO

It's not really US against China. It's US companies against the China corporation. Tesla could never do things like that to compete and if caught it will be game over for the company. The China corporation can and will if it thinks there is a benefit to them. They will never worry about getting caught too.

@Tam

It's a complicated matter and there is no simple solution. You are absolutely right that American companies are responsible too because they need China. All I was trying to point out is, as the subject of the op, we are not dealing with an honest or nice guy regardless that Trump is saying similar things. I know how many of us feel about Trump but enemy of the enemy is not always a freind, or two Wongs not necessarily make a Wright as @TT wanted to say.

SCCRENDO | 17/12/2016

@Carlk. Chinese companies do steal company secrets but there is definitely government involvement as well. The Chinese also send students over to the US to study and pick up technologies and secrets. We of course do the same. The best known example of us using cyber warfare was against Iran with the stuxnet virus in combination with Israel

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet

carlk | 17/12/2016

Again two Wongs do not make one Wright.

Tâm | 17/12/2016

@carlk

Indeed, it's a very complicated problem when it comes to intellectual thefts.

Japan did it after world war II by reverse-engineering a GM vehicle, copying the Ford production process and equipment (Toyota), reverse-engineering GE appliances (Toshiba)...

One blatant support from the US government for intellectual thefts as the US claims if you can't beat them join them:

https://www.techgig.com/tech-news/editors-pick/piracy-website-gets-suppo...

"Washington is a vocal proponent of intellectual property rights in Vietnam as it is around the world, and a site like Zing would be shut down in the United States. But with space with for public diplomacy limited in Communist Vietnam, the embassy's uses its "Zingme" account to reach out to young people in Vietnam as it seeks to build closer ties with its former enemy."

There are all kinds of problems in the world, including trades, economic espionage, intellectual trades but so far the US has been very nimble, adaptable, flexible in dealing problems through diplomatic means.

Let's hope diplomacy (and not ticking off others) will continue to prevail.

carlk | 17/12/2016

"Let's hope diplomacy (and not ticking off others) will continue to prevail."

Well I think I'm ticked off already.

SCCRENDO | 17/12/2016

It's going to be interesting.

compchat | 17/12/2016

Of course China's current behavior was caused by the lack of leadership and non confrontational style of obama. Obama was a terrible President when it came to foreign affairs. Drawing lines but never enforcing those lines, etc. He still won't do anything about the Syrian Refugees except to establish safe (death) zones. The only good thing is that, for now, even though Obama hates Israel the various factions over there appear to be hell bent on destroying each other and in so doing have been ignoring Israel for the most part.

China will give the drone back when they've stolen all the technology. I can remember making various posts about the risks of Tesla manufacturing cars in China. I was scorned and ridiculed by people like Sccrendope. However if things continue to deteroriate I would expect that China will "nationalize" the Tesla factories in China driving Tesla into bankruptcy. Musk is taking a huge risk by building teslas in China. As I've said before build them in America and ship them to China (like the Japanese did for some many years to the U.S.).

Not to worry Trump will solve all these problems. Not all at once but over his first term.

compchat | 17/12/2016

@Sccreendope,

Again blaming Trump for China's behavior when he hasn't spent one day as POTUS. You leftist democrats are really reaching. You lost the election by a landslide in part because you put out a worse candidate then Trump. Hiliary was a career politician who should have been tried and convicted and jailed for her various security violations. The Obama "fix" was in on that one. Otherwise she would have gone to jail.

AND remember all those Chinese military bases and islands with missle launchers were done under the careful watch of one Barak Obama. He's had years to do something about them. What happened ?

PRESIDENT Trump will focus on building up our conventional military power so "huge" that no national or combination of nations could beat us. That means developing more complex and powerful drones (air crat, ships, missiles, robots). That also means that we must move our technology manufacturing and development out of the countries of potential enemies like Communist China and return them to the United States. No more "made in China" labels on our future TVs, computers, washers, dryers etc. It's pretty disgusting really. We went out looking for a washer/dryer to the Home Depot. They had a lot of choices but only one choice built, in part, in the United States. This is the ultimate result of the changes which ramped up in the 1980s when the government changed our economy from production to business (stocks, bonds, banking etc.).

ALMOST NOTHING IS MADE IN THE UNITED STATES. This is one of the reasons I voted Trump. He promised, over and over, to change this. Will he ? We shall see. At least he has his priorities straight on this issue....Build in the USA and by USA built products. It's shameful that our children have and will inherit this country as it stands.

There is nothing stopping China from stealing US manufacturing plants in their country. Nothing.
I don't care how many millions of potential customers live in China. If you want to sell Teslas in China, ship them there. They are going to steal the technology anyway and build a Model-C (C for China) if they haven't done it already (and I know they've made attempts and were bold enough to try and sell them in the USA undercutting Tesla's pricing).

Trump will stand up to these people. It will be tumultuous no doubt but ultimately benefit our country greatly if we can manage not to divide ourselves.

brando | 18/12/2016

reminder Tesla patent have been opened sourced free for the taking.

How many overseas military bases does US have? near 1,000?

GE spending/investing $11 billion in China.
http://www.geglobalresearch.com/locations/shanghai-china

http://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthompson/2015/09/23/boeing-to-build-its...

It isn't the farmers, factory workers, doctors, engineers of China you need to worry about. Do you imagine they
want to come half way around the world to invade the US any more than any of you can't wait to go fight and die in China?

Isn't it the top 1% in most any country that citizens need to fear most and watch? The little traveling I have done around the world, most everyone seemed more similar than different to me. Few wanted to be in the military, none wanted a war with another country, they wanted to marry and have kids. Everyones government has told lies.

I know the teaching of history not exactly a strong point in the US, but surely you know that the Russians lost near 30 million people in WWII against the Germans. Then they were painted as our enemy. Reminds me of a fellow
Eric Arthur Blair (25 June 1903 – 21 January 1950) who wrote a novel in 1948 about government manipulation of it's people, 1984. I recommend as a good read. Looking up his bio helps shed light on his perspective of the world.

The richest country in the world, and in human history and some how we can't educate our children, provide reasonable healthcare, pay decent wages to most workers. Elon has shown how you can build cars in the most expensive state in our Union and some how most believe it is the working man in factories that is over paid rather than the multi-million dollar CEO and his upper management staff. Our poor US corporations can't make it here in the US an must go over seas for cheaper labor. Automation productivity shouldn't help workers, it should only benefit management and shareholders - if this is what you believe then you have what you wished for.

First to put Satellite into space, animals into space, man and women and build the first space station. Russia.
USA was first to the Moon.

Our corporate elites managed to destroy US space industries - but they were the most profitable, and still are Boeing, Lockheed ULA - to the point we had to pay Russia to get US astronauts into space (and ULA had to buy RD-180 rocket engines from Russia - they were the low bid supplier after all) and a South African immagrant had to sue the US Air Force to be allowed to bid on satellite launches for the Air Force and our "secret security state spy satellites". You may have heard of the company Space Exploration Technologies better known as SpaceX.

It wasn't the Chinese nor the Russians who started the collapse of our Empire, look to Wall Street and the corporate owners.

Tâm | 18/12/2016

China has promised to return the US drone back!

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/17/world/asia/china-us-drone.html

Now, we just have to figure out China's condition of the return "in a proper way”.

Tâm | 18/12/2016

Never mind in figuring out what "proper way" means!

China got the drone for free and Trump tweeted "let them keep it".

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/china-said-it-wou...

Happy ending!

compchat | 19/12/2016

President Trump will deal with China by making better deals with them. No more paying them huge fees for U.S. to do business in China.

And let's clarify. Trump doesn't hate China. He's always said that. He is, however, sick and tired of our leaders who cut bad deals with China. We do hold some power over China by the billions of dollars of goods that we import or make in China. We send our jobs to China because it is cheaper to do so. It won't be under President Trump. Musk wants to build Tesla's in China and send them to the USA he will pay a huge import fee (prohibitively so). You've got to watch businessman. Their first loyalty is to their business and Elon is no different.

As for the drone, I doubt it had any military secrets that China doesn't already know. They put a lot of effort into stealing our military and civilian secrets. As Trump said, let them keep it (for now).

compchat | 20/12/2016

"Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Geng Shuang responded that "If the [one-China policy] is compromised or interfered with, any sound and steady development in China-U.S. relations and cooperation in various fields is out of the question.""

Seems to be that the Chinese government is already attempting to test Trump's metal. I assume by the interaction that the Chinese now know that Trump isn't the feckless Obama. He may well recognize Taiiwan instead of communist China.

"The Global Times, a Chinese state-run newspaper, went further, accusing Trump of being "very childish and impulsive." "
Childish and impulsive. What the Chinese did was not only illegal, it was childish and impulsive !

"Trump has in the past called China a currency manipulator and trade cheat, but on Dec. 9 said the U.S.-China relationship is "one of the most important relationships we must improve"

Trump speaks the Truth about China being a currency manipulator.

And I must say, Tam, I am surprised by your "happy ending comment". This is not an ending but a beginning of our problems with China. I very much doubt if the drone incident is ended. Someone in the white house might wish to teach China not to steal military equipment from us.

compchat | 20/12/2016

@ Tam said,
"The problem is although the US condemns such practice verbally but in real life the US actually supports such practice by avoiding buying made-in-USA and keep buying China's products and services."

Totally agree with you on your statement. But it's hard to get labor to accept $5.00/hour in the United States. Infact minimum wage is no $15/hour. Any idea if they have a minimum wage in China and what it might be ?

Trump will even the playing field with China on that one as well. You should also know that Elon built a Tesla factory in China. That, doesn't help the US economy. As I've said here many times before the Teslas should be built only in the USA and shipped to China or wherever. If the Japanese can ship their cars here and make a profit then we can ship our cars to China and make a profit. We (the USA) are now open for huge business.

SamO | 20/12/2016

So many stupid/wrong things:

1. "Infact minimum wage is no $15/hour."
2. "You should also know that Elon built a Tesla factory in China."

No. truthiness/trumpiness is no substitute for reality, dipshitz.

1. "Minimum wage increased to $9.00 Jan 1, 2016. The minimum wage has been $8.25 ($1 higher than the federal minimum) since July 1, 2010. Employers who offer health benefits can pay employees $7.25."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_in_the_United_States

2. "We haven't signed anything for a factory in China" - Elon Musk
http://electrek.co/2016/06/27/elon-musk-denies-tesla-joint-venture-china/

Silver2K | 21/12/2016

compchat

Have you lost you mind? wtf are you talking about?

There was never talk about building Tesla vehicles in China and import them into US. Musk said he wants to build in China to sell to China to avoid the tariff.

If China cuts exports to US because they don't agree with trump, it is not trump that will suffer, it will be the US citizens, because prices will sky rocket due to low supply and high demand.

The fact that minimum wage is so low is reason why people by Chinese products. They cant afford American made, because American made has Union salaries behind the product and inflates the price to make a profit.

carlk | 21/12/2016

The real and only solution to fight off cheap(er) labor is automation but that will not help any blue collar worker in the country. The only way to make this economic system to work, that is to fairly distribute the improved standard of living coming from increased productivity is something like universal basic income like Elon has mentioned. Unfortunately brainless Republicans could never see the future and will insist this is a government hand out that should be rejected outright. The automation likely will still happen, anything that improves profit will happen, but those deplorables will just suffer even more. Conservatives or Libertarians wouldn't care any of those after conned their votes of course.

As for China this actually will not be a good thing for them. Huge labor force has been the greatest asset for them but this will become irrelevant. In the future what matters is not how many workers you have but how many robots you do. It's not the race to the lowest labor cost but race to the future of labor-less manufacturing society. US still has the upper hand to compete if we do this right.

If you don't believe this just look at the history of agriculture. Throughout the history pheasants accounts for 90% of population. They work hard to support themselves and other 10% of nobles, artists and bureaucrats until agricultural and industrial revolutions changed that. Agriculture only accounts for 2% of the US labor force now. The next one we see will be the AI and automation revolutions. This is just the future we can't avoid. Elon is obviously the one who could see the future better than anyone else in the world.

Bighorn | 21/12/2016

China is testing Trump's metal? All that glitters is not gold? I'm glad some here are testing compchat's mettle as he seems to be an unadulterated fool. See pyrite.

Silver2K | 21/12/2016

@big, he pulled back the curtain :)

compchat | 22/12/2016

@Carik,

There is a Tesla factory in China. And while it may not ship Teslas to the United States the possibility of that occuring is substantial. Elon's stated goal is to build Tesla factories in many countries. Perhaps BigHorny should do some research before he calls me a fool. Just saying that's the history of our current economic disaster. Why not be concerned about it occuring with Tesla.

Build the products and factories in countries where there is cheap labor (like Mexico or China). Import them back into the United States. Loose 30,000 jobs in the process (in the battle ground election states). Yes, that's exactly what we should continue to do Bighorny. Unless you own a Tesla chances are many of the parts of your car were built elsewhere. Perhaps your entire car. Yes there are a few "show" plants in the US owned by foreign corporations. BFD. Doesn't change the scales of our crappy economy. Unless, of course, you believe Obama that our economy is great. If that's the case there is no hope for you. Only an A-hole like you would criticize the misspelling of one word in a post and ignore the content. Maybe you shouldn't mettle in things that don't involve you. If Tesla had decent software then those mistakes could easily be corrected. Once posted, it remains as is.

Silver2K | 22/12/2016

This article was written in June 2016. The factory is fully operational?
http://mashable.com/2016/06/24/tesla-factory-china-9-billion/#WWOEtzAt5aqT

what's wrong with the economy?

Can you tell me what the magical trump is going to do?
You obviously hate Obama even though he's done a really good job.

carlk | 22/12/2016

Obama took office in Jan. 2009. Tesla started delivering first cars around that time. Received the $465 million federal loan the same year that enabled it to purchase the Fremont plant and buy equipment. It went public the next year and started to get financing from the public market. Introduced the Model S in 2012 and paid off the loan in 2013. During the next few years its car has won the best car title from every magazine, became the best selling luxury car in the US, built the supercharge network, built the gigafactory and created tens of thousands of new good jobs. Thank you Elon and thank you Obama.

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