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Looks like congress spared the Tax credit for an EV in their compromise bill.

Looks like congress spared the Tax credit for an EV in their compromise bill.

The House bill had the EV tax credit going forward. The Senate bill removed it. But the compromise bill keeps the tax credit.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/congress-spares-7500-ev-tax-credit/?u...

Of course this tax bill still sucks, but if it does pass, at least the credit will be there for next year.

Should_I | 15/12/2017

As it pertains to the MS and MX isn't the tax credit a tax cuts for the rich?
As such shouldn't we be against it?

SO | 15/12/2017

Don’t worry @Should_i - tesla will not get that credit for much longer.

As far as....should we be against it? You bet! Remove them from other industries and I will happily want them removed from EVs. Keep the playing field level....right?

EVRider | 15/12/2017

@Should_I: The tax credit applies to all EVs, including Model 3, so why is it a tax cut for the rich?

Rocky_H | 15/12/2017

@Should_I, Quote: "As it pertains to the MS and MX isn't the tax credit a tax cuts for the rich?"

You are framing it in a really weird way, as @EVRider pointed out, since it applies to cheap EVs or expensive EVs, but let me give you another example.

There is a tax deduction for adding more insulation to your house for energy efficiency. So let me now apply your reasoning to this:
"As it pertains to people with mansions, isn't this a tax deduction for the rich?"

Or with the grocery tax credit:
"As it pertains to people who buy caviar, isn't this a tax credit for the rich?"

Should_I | 15/12/2017

EVRider, M3 is practically vapor wear yet and I specified "as it applies to MS MX".

So with the point about other tax breaks working for everyone just the rich more because they have more.
Why is the perception here than tax reform is just for the rich and going to hurt the rest when it doubles the standard deduction for everyone. Seems that part helps everyone, the rich get more because they have more

rxlawdude | 15/12/2017

"EVRider, M3 is practically vapor wear..."

Yet another uninformed opinion that shouldn't be.

RedShift | 15/12/2017

@should_i

"M3 is practically vaporware.."

It's not, and you should be called out on such blatant falsehoods.

Nevertheless let's apply that twisted logic to this, then:

Businesses increasing hiring IN THE USA because of tax cuts. Now, that's vaporware.

BackgammonPlayer | 15/12/2017

For those of you who think we should be against this, I have some great news! You are not required to take the credit on your tax return. Rest easy tonight, and thank you for nibbling away at Obama's $11 trillion increase in the national debt by refusing the credit.

#MAGA

SO | 15/12/2017

11 trillion....depends how you measure.

https://www.thebalance.com/national-debt-under-obama-3306293

NKYTA | 15/12/2017

Remind me again who actually had a surplus?

Oh, yeah http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/02/03/cnn-fact-check-the-last-...

The other grouper in chief that actually understood, I don’t know, math? Good grief.

NKYTA | 15/12/2017

Lol groper.

BackgammonPlayer | 16/12/2017

>11 trillion....depends how you measure.

I agree it's much less when you select your facts to make Obama look good.

For example, the nonsense in that article discounts the debts for programs under Bush but ignores the costs of Obama's programs that extend into Trump's term and beyond. Democrats with Trump Derangement Syndrome are desperate to make Obama look good.

SO | 16/12/2017

@Back. - considering how Trump is undermining Obamacare, those costs won’t exist for too much longer. After all, people should be able to go without health insurance since they know they will never get sick or in an accident and can in turn just not pay their medical bills.

But don’t worry. The republicans will soon own the economy if their tax plan passes. Prepare for a short boom followed by a huge bust. Many Americans seem to prefer that vs long term steady growth. It is all on the republicans. They shouldn’t blame democrats since they have majorities in the government.

Let’s just see where things stand in a few years.

tew ms us | 16/12/2017

@Should_I As it pertains to the MS and MX isn't the tax credit a tax cuts for the rich?
As such shouldn't we be against it?

Exactly. Those rich fat cats in their $100K+ cars shouldn't get a dime. All the money should go to poor folks like me who have to wait for $50K+ Model 3s.

(Example #53 from my forthcoming book _How to Evaluate Tax Legislation_)

SamO | 16/12/2017

Real people play chess
#sanctimoniousidiots play backgammon

Dofpic | 17/12/2017

I guess us Deplorable's were a lot smarter than the never trump crowd. Stock market up 5 trillion in one year. Up 13 months in a row for the first time ever in the 13 months following an election. Small business confidence the highest since 1983 and when everyone said we could not grow above 2% as in the Obama era, we just had two back to back +3% quarters and very likely to approach 4% in the 4th quarter. The LEI was up 1.2% in October the largest jump in one month ever! Inconvenient truths I guess.

SO | 18/12/2017

@Dofpic - Remind us again what this Congress or this admin has passed that would affect this?

SamO | 18/12/2017

Thanks Obama

MitchP85D | 18/12/2017

Trump eliminated Obama regulations that choke small business!

SO | 18/12/2017

Amazing! Trump must have gone back in time and made those cuts during Obama’s tenure since job growth was really good prior to Trump taking office.

Should_I | 18/12/2017

Yeah it got better starting second week of November last year..........Obama told us this kind of economic growth was not going to happen again when making excuses for the long term slow growth under him, now you want to give him credit for what he said was impossible.

Far as those who take offense to my "practically vaporware" comment about the M3, how many are delivered to non-employees sofar?

Shock | 18/12/2017

"As it pertains to the MS and MX isn't the tax credit a tax cuts for the rich?"

Yes, it is, basically. I don't see many poor people buying teslas.

But, the rich already pay so much in taxes. I pay infinity more than literally millions of americans. Just me. By myself. And I'm not rich. Vast numbers not only pay nothing they literally steal money from you and I at tax time in the form of tax credits in some case that puts their tax burden into negative territory. We pay in money at the barrel of a gun (tax evasion the cops will come get ya) which is then given to the poor.

So if I pay $10k taxes now and the next year I pay $20k and then the year after that I want a $5k tax credit, it's only half the picture to call it a "tax cut". I'm still paying a lot of taxes.

RedShift | 18/12/2017

@should_i

How many? Guessing a few hundred so fear, and that in itself should suffice to prove its not vaporware. In 2018, there will be a few tens of thousands. Is that number enough to satisfy you, mr Sould_I?

You also ignore : there are OTHER EVs also selling in large numbers that are ‘economy’ cars. (LEAF, Bolt, etc)

So, your argument is multi layered bullshit.

SamO | 18/12/2017

Hey @RedShift,

I've been told that every snowflake is special and you should not argue with the substance of their arguments or you are "being mean" and "fact-based."

Everyone knows that reality has a well-known liberal bias. So stop being so biased. ;-)

Shock | 18/12/2017

This happens all the time. Economic growth or lack thereof touted as a result of or lack thereof by action of a president, depending on which party you're in. Reality is that generally the president doesn't impact the economy nearly as much as nay or cheerleaders claim. I'm sure much of the growth now was going to happen regardless of Trump. I personally doubt all of it, though.

It's been several generations since the stock market grew this much the year after a presidential election. We're up over 30% now, and that was already on a pretty good stock market. But before we pat Trump on the back, should we get a major correction, who to blame then?

RedShift | 18/12/2017

@SamO

I’ll take heed, thanks. I have completely stopped interacting with many of the swamp people. My filter list needs expanding, it seems.

SamO | 18/12/2017

I've expanded to avoid Cheese and Scrap . . . just right-click, "hide post from user" and goodbye.

“Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.” - RAH

blue adept | 18/12/2017

Compared to the billions of dollars the petroleum industry has been and continues to get year after year, the $7,500 credit for EV's is pocket change comparatively, essentially the pocket lint of tax credits.

However, if there are those that find themselves so frustrated over cutting off a bit of pocket change for the advancement of non-polluting EV's and renewable energy adoption, I say we cut out ALL of the tax exemptions offered to energy/transportation companies as I'm sure those BILLIONS of dollars could be put to better use, for example, repairing our aging and crumbling infrastructure (we've got plumbing, sewage, and water infrastructure dating back to the 1800's, if not even earlier, still in use today, and bridges and roadways almost as dated.

Afterall, Trump-tato has expressed a desire to address funding for new job creation and infrastructure repair would create a LOT of new jobs for which all of those tax credit monies would go far in financing.

So you go ahead and bitch and whine about the relative pocket change EV's get, hell, even cut it out if you want. Just remember you can't legally cut out the one without cutting out the other, so I'm guessing you really shouldn't, should you, @Should_I?

Nexxus | 19/12/2017

For the one most concerned about having to bear the cost or burden of someone getting the $7500.00 tax credit. I'll gladly pay you and your family (up to four people) your share of the cost per capita in the US for our tax credit. Based on 315 million people in the US the cost to your family for my credit is $.00009524.

Got change for a penny?

When all 200K of Teslas are sold in the US, that amount comes out to $4.76 per person up to that point. Not really a big price for people to pay to foment a revolution in the auto industry. This doesn't include any of the intangible credits we receive for having cleaner air, less use of oil, etc... I, for one, am glad to pay this tax on everyone else's account if it means living cleaner and better.

Just my 2 cents, well, er.... $.00009524.

SO | 19/12/2017

@Nexxus - I agree. But to be fair, that 7500 starts to phase out after 200k. It doesn’t completely go away.

And more than just Tesla customers receive that tax credit.

I just wish the oil industry could have their credits be as visible as EV credits. Either that or obscure EV credits like what the oil industry does. Keep the playing field level.

Nexxus | 21/12/2017

@SO,
I agree also, but in all fairness I did say up to that point. The final figure will depend on however many of them they end up delivering while the duration of the program lasts. Still a small price to pay for Tesla fomenting the future of transportation.

SO | 21/12/2017

@Nexxus +1

blue adept | 21/12/2017

@reed_lewis; @SO; @Nexxus

To provide some context, annual United States fossil fuel subsidies range from $10 BILLION to $52 BILLION, yet none of these include costs borne by taxpayers related to the climate, local environmental, and health impacts of the fossil fuel industry.

http://priceofoil.org/fossil-fuel-subsidies/

Over the past century, the federal government has pumped more than $470 BILLION into the oil and gas industry in the form of generous, NEVER-EXPIRING tax breaks. Once intended to jump-start struggling domestic drillers, these incentives have become a tidy bonus for some of the world’s most profitable companies.

To make this a bit more relevant to the individual, taxpayers currently subsidize the oil industry by as much as $4.8 BILLION a year, with about half of that going to the big five oil companies (ExxonMobil, Shell, Chevron, BP, and ConocoPhillips), which get an average tax break of $3.34 on every barrel of domestic crude they produce.

www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/04/oil-subsidies-renewable-energy-tax-...

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/04/oil-subsidies-renewable-ener...

And yet they (the government) want to bitch about a relatively measly $7,500 tax credit for every EV sold, so much so in fact that they're talking about ending it after the sale of only some 200K EV's when they haven't even ended any of the almost century-long tax credits they've been affording to the oil companies...

I call foul!

SO | 21/12/2017

@just an allusion- I agree. Somehow many of those same anti EV crowd are fine with spending trillions of taxpayer money to protect oil and not show it as a separate line item at the pump.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-us-has-spent-8-trillion-protecting-th...

reed_lewis | 21/12/2017

@just an allusion - I agree that the Fossil Fuel industry gets very large kickbacks/tax credits/savings that totally eclipse the pittance that has been spent on EVs and related technology. I am all for the EV tax credit, and even would love to see it extended further than 200K cars. But with our current idiot president, that will never happen.

What always pisses me off is the idiots who come up with lines like Tesla is a government car because of the tax credit. OTOH, they completely forget about the fossil fuel industry.

SamO | 21/12/2017

Don't worry everyone. Stay calm. New taxes for poor people are coming . . . including a VAT . . .in the guise of more tax "reform" . . .

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/20/tax-reform-consumption-funding...

blue adept | 21/12/2017

@SO; @reed_lewis

The number(s) quoted don't even touch upon the actual amount of monies that the oil/ICE auto industry gets because they don't account for peripheral/associated expenses for acquiring and securing oil deposits, medical expenses associated with respiratory tract infections, expenses involved in environmental recovery losses, and any number of other hidden expenses associated with the oil industry, though for our purposes here we're only focused on subsidies and tax credits which, as I've covered, have and continue to be endless for the oil/ICE car industries while the government wants to put volume limitation on the EV industry...!?!?!

Perhaps if someone were to bring to their attention the fact of the almost century long subsidies and credits the oil and ICE car industries have and continue to receive they wouldn't find themselves so inclined to repeal the pittance the EV industry gets, you know, inasmuch as doing so would equate to discriminatory and unfair business practice warranting litigation under the FTC for, say, RICO violations...?

SO | 21/12/2017

Sadly that won’t happen.

Of course today some companies are touting bonuses, expansion, etc because of the tax plan. That may be true. So I guess that means I can take 1.00 from a taxpayer and give 10 cents back on that dollar and the taxpayer will think its a good deal. Interesting.

blue adept | 21/12/2017

The point is that the government made allowances for ICE cars back in the day in the form of tax credits that have never expired, so for them to offer tax credits for EV's only to turn around and place a quantity cap on them is tantamount to the type of arbitrary/monopolized business practices that would wind up in court and, yes, it would.

The only way that the government could rectify this would be to eliminate all of the tax credits afforded ICE car manufacturers/buyers and continue EV tax credits for the same amount of time as ICE car credits have been in place and then, and only then, eliminate them as well.

Blueskies | 23/12/2017

When do we think Tesla will reach 200,000 cars, ending the $7,500 credit?

NKYTA | 23/12/2017

Um, soon.

SamO | 23/12/2017

The $7,500 credit doesn't end when Tesla reaches 200,000 cars delivered inside the United States . . . it ends 4 quarters after, with phase-out.

v12tommy | 24/12/2017

I really don't see the big deal. I'm in favor of ending the credit, as is Elon Musk.

"And in fact the incentives give us a relative disadvantage. Tesla has succeeded in spite of the incentives not because of them." - Elon Musk, May 3, 2017

Why are taxpayers spending money to help me purchase my $100k car? I bought my Model S because it made good economic sense regardless of the credit, not so I could get money back from the government.

blue adept | 25/12/2017

@v12tommy

Conversely, I could pose the same question in a slightly different context:

'Why are taxpayers spending money to help me purchase my $100k car? I bought my ICE car because it made good economic sense regardless of the credit, not so I could get money back from the government.'

Again, the point is that auto buyers have been afforded tax credits for purchasing cars since Ford revolutionalized automobile mass manufacturing then, all of a sudden, the government ups and decides to put a quantity cap for tax credit eligibility on EV's, apparently, just because they're EV's...That's discriminatory.

I, too, am for eliminating all of the tax credits. However, the credits afforded EV purchasers should be allowed to continue for the same amount of time as they've been extended to ICE's purchasers and then eliminated...It would only be fair.