Tesla vs Jaguar I-Pace. Is Tesla charging too slow to compete?

Tesla vs Jaguar I-Pace. Is Tesla charging too slow to compete?

New Seeking alpha article "Tesla Is About To Be Shocked By Jaguar's Charging Advantage"
According to the article I posted above it appears that Tesla has a major problem on it's hands. I have been a fan of Tesla even before it went public and I have been impressed but I am starting to have some major concerns about competition and the changing landscape. Europe has set forth a new charging standard and the all electric Jaguar I-Pace may be the first actual competitor I am worried about. Anyone have thoughts on this article?

Tropopause | 07/02/2018

What article?

Should_I | 07/02/2018

The VAST majority of charging is at home overnight so for the vast majority of us most of the time charging speed is a non-issue.

Tesla already has a very fast charging and you are worried about a non-competitor????????
How much do you want stock to go down so you can buy in? I don't believe you are anything but a troll.

carlk | 07/02/2018

Did you write that article? | 07/02/2018

Funny - So what if there is a new charging standard? It is very hard to charge any car from a standard's document. You need actual chargers. Currently there is one stall in all of Europe for fast charging the Jaguar. Unless you're near that one stall, you're screwed, because what is left are very-very slow chargers. Only Tesla has thousands of Supercharger stalls that are available today. Jaguar has zero interest in installing any chargers, so it could be a long slog before you see a true fast charger near you, for that Jaguar.

When you see a Seeking Alpha article about Tesla - 99% are written by Tesla stock shorters, who slant every way they can against Tesla. Rarely do you see any factual information.

jordanrichard | 07/02/2018

First of all, what article?

Second, there is a distinct difference between a "charging standard" and actual chargers.

Third, are you afraid of or believe in ghosts, because you sound like it. Where is this existing charging network with this new charging standard that you are so afraid of.?

jerrykham | 07/02/2018

Your first sentence said it all. Seeking Alpha. I don't know what those guys are trying to do, but I see them publish article after article about the company I work for (not Tesla) and how the stock is going to go down fast because of x, y, and z only to see them be wrong time after time. I think they are shorters who think that they have a platform people pay attention to. I guess they are trying the same with Tesla.

patswin | 07/02/2018

“However, the devil is in the detail. The most devilish detail is called tapering. Jaguar’s tweet has profound implications in this regard – it implies the Jaguar must be able to charge at a near constant 100kW across the important 0-80% range.”
This is from the article. So it says in order to charge faster than Tesla it implies it must charge at a constant rate. No where does it say it can actually do this
If it can manage to do this it will be able to charge from 0-80% in 45 minutes, big IF.
It then goes on about Tesla tapering off the charge rate and exaggerated how quickly it drops off. I’ve never charged from 0 but I can always get to 80% in less than 45 minutes. Worthless article

carlgo2 | 07/02/2018

As predicted, the charging wars are beginning.

We do have to remember that Tesla built out their Supercharging system as a small company without a surplus of money. If a number of huge companies get together they can build far more chargers.

Tesla has teased 10 minute charging and one has to assume they have a plan to charge faster. It might end up being a fight over locations, the charging rates being similar.

DTsea | 07/02/2018

0 to 80 percent is an edge case anyway. | 07/02/2018

@carlgo2 - You are right that it is possible although unlikely. The issue is no other car company has been willing to spend anything significant on charging infrastructure - or even suggest they might build a charging network. They are all hoping someone else will do it. Not a very good strategy if you really want to succeed. It's far from clear any other big automaker other than Tesla really wants EVs to succeed (with the possible exception of Nissan). Lots of talk by automakers and very little action.

Uncle Paul | 07/02/2018

Tesla has been ramping up their charging speeds over the years. Much faster now than when first Superchargers deployed. Elon has also released several new technologies, such as small diameter or water cooling charging cables.

Most of the future release articles from other companies fail to mention that as more vehicles plug into the charging center the amperage will fall as each additional car gets plugged in.

Future products always sound fantastic, as they have lots of claimed benefits and no negatives. The reality is often far less than the press releases.

Currently Tesla has the finest long distance charging system in the world. Far better than anyone else. Until another company actually rolls out many thousands of stalls, it is just hype.

As far as future projections, Elon has also alluded to much faster charging systems coming in the future.

Time will tell.

Recently Volvo has pulled back on calling their proposed releases as "Tesla beaters". New vehicles will be more expensive and less capable than previously projected...and so it goes.

Uncle Paul | 07/02/2018

As a side note, none of these other companies would be even looking at all electric vehicles if Tesla had not blazed the path.

jordanrichard | 07/02/2018

It will be interesting to see where these other car companies will try to put their own chargers. If you think about it, since Tesla’s chargers take so much power, they may not be able to put in theirs, in the same plaza’s/rest areas.

Tropopause | 07/02/2018

OP is missing, just like his link.

Remnant | 08/02/2018

@ jordanrichard | February 7, 2018

First of all, what article? >>

RedPillSucks | 08/02/2018

seeking alpha are sensationalist click bait shorts. One can pretty much discount anything they publish.

DonS | 08/02/2018

@RedPill +1
Never click on a link to SeekingAlpha. It just sends revenue to the misinformation machine.

carlgo2 | 08/02/2018

Still, the manufacturers who keep promising cars in "two years" are going to have to do something. I still think Tesla should put up generic stations, Acme Charging or whatever, and charge up and make money from all EVs. I may be almost alone here, but I think that most people will gravitate to the gas station model if it is offered. So, sell them donuts too. Donuts can fund tunnels and satellites and grande rockets. And people say they are unhealthy...! | 08/02/2018

All rechargeable batteries experience a slowing rate of charge as the total charge approaches 70-100%.

Lithium ion batteries charge at 4.2 volts per cell, no higher. The charging current per cell is a limit defined by the manufacturer. As the battery adds charge the net voltage across the cell declines to 4.2-X where X is the increasing voltage developed within the cell as it is being charged. The charging current per cell is limited by the manufacturer to cap the development of heat within the cell. Tesla limits the 18650 charging current to 4 amps max. Every cell has a small but definite internal resistance to current flow, something like .015 Ohms. The heat developed within a cell is proportional representation to the charging current squared times the internal resistance or something like a fourth of a watt. 7,104 cells in a battery pack create almost 1800 watts worth of heat, the equivalent of maybe 18 100 watt light bulbs that the cooling system for the battery pack has to mitigate. That's one good reason for limiting the charging current per cell. Another might be to cap the stress on the cell that could accelerate aging. As the cell's internal charge grows, the current per cell shrinks causing the taper.

Batteriy cells with greater dimensions, increasing the surface area of the electrodes, like the 2170 for instance allows charging current to be higher--something like 5.5 amps per cell by my estimate for the Model 3 pack. This is counterbalanced by the greater capacity of the cell so that charging time is not improved.

AcLegend | 28/02/2018

Thanks for posting the article Remnant. I was blocked from doing it for some reason. Thanks for all the input everyone. I am less concerned after reading all these posts. I hope the Model 3 production issues are soon resolved and Tesla proves all the Wall St shorters wrong. I pray Tesla starts making some profit with the Model 3 rollout to stabilize the company. I am a bit concerned about that. Jaguar I-Pace is a real looker however. No infrastructure though, so I will wait for the price to come down on a used 100D. It's been a long wait for a no compromise car....100D is it and I can't wait to pull the trigger.

bp | 01/03/2018

Didn't Musk indicate Tesla was working on faster charging? Clearly the Semi charging rate is significantly faster than the current S/3/X charging.

Though, if/when Tesla does deploy faster charging for their S/3/X/Y models, that likely will require changes at the superchargers - and in the onboard battery pack and charging hardware - which probably won't help those of us who already have Tesla vehicles.

rxlawdude | 01/03/2018

@AcLegend, the other thing to consider is the UK vehicles' electrical systems reliability. History isn't kind in its assessment. ("Lucas Electric - Prince of Darkness.") :-)

FREE ENERGY | 01/03/2018

iPace to have, alternatively, 2 onboard chargers

3,7 kw or 7,4 kw so home charge will take AGES !!!!!

carlk | 01/03/2018

@AcLegend "I pray Tesla starts making some profit with the Model 3 rollout to stabilize the company. "

Did you aware Model S/X are making profits and that money is used to develop and produce the Model 3?

jordanrichard | 01/03/2018

Bp, the superchargers bypass the onboard charger(s).

Should_I | 02/03/2018

Yeah but when most charging is done at home........

Tropopause | 02/03/2018

Elon mentioned profitability later this year. Either way I'm not worried as their mission is massive growth, like Amazon.

dmm1240 | 02/03/2018

I've taken my X90D on several trips, not that long but in the several hundred mile range. Superchargers only come into play when I'm on the road, otherwise I charge at home using a Tesla Wall Mount charger. At a supercharger, the longest I've ever had to wait is around 50 minutes to go from near zero to say 240 miles with a 100% capacity of 257 (actually 261 in mine). Usually, the wait is 20-30 minutes. My only complaint -- and this is my doing -- is that I wish I had bought the 100 battery instead of the 90. Why? Because the trip I take most often is 250 miles to visit relatives that requires a 20 minute stop in Chattanooga, TN at the airport supercharger. Not much to do there except wait. If the airport is open, it closes at 10 pm, there is time for a bathroom break and to purchase a smoothie at the airport's dinky single sandwich shop and it's back on the road. If I had bought the 100D the Chattanooga stop would be unnecessary. The good news is that Tesla plans to add a supercharger in Manchester, TN this year that will negate having to stop in Chattanooga.

This year, Tesla will also add another supercharger in Metter, GA that will eliminate the stop at the Savannah, GA airport on a trip from Atlanta to Amelia Island, FL. We go there a lot, too.

2018 will also see Tesla add another supercharger station at Cumberland Mall in Smyrna, GA about 7 miles from my house. I doubt I'll ever use that one, haven't used any of the other superchargers in Atlanta because there's no need.

IOW, the Tesla supercharger network is already built out and improves every month. Jaguar and others are going to have a hard time matching that investment any time soon.

BTW, the iPace looks to be a nice addition to PEV choices and is welcome. To call it a competitor to the MX, though, is ridiculous. Comparing the iPace to the MY, when it arrives, will be more relevant.

SO | 02/03/2018

Elon is correct in not worrying about profitability at this time. This is when you expand. Don’t let the others catch up. If they do, the profits Tesla earned today will be among the last.

bp | 03/03/2018

Yes, supercharging bypasses the onboard charger, but increasing the charging rate at superchargers will likely require changes to both the battery pack and what's between the battery pack and the charging port, to handle the higher current.

jordanrichard | 03/03/2018

Well, that sort of has already happened. The newest superchargers are more powerful than the original 90 kWh chargers, but if one has a 2012- 2013 MS, the battery pack can’t take full advantage of the new 120 kWh chargers.

rxlawdude | 03/03/2018

I'm still amused at all the "competitors" to Tesla. Bottom line: there IS NO COMPETITOR for vehicles that can work as a commuter and a road trip car. The other "competitors" can suffice for daily driving (and charging at night at home), but plan that 3,000 mile road trip with an EV that has no cohesive fast charging network.

It would behoove the competitors to FIRST develop their charging network, and then they might be able to boast about being viable competitors.

sosmerc | 03/03/2018

With regard to long distance travel, nobody challenges Tesla yet. It's sad that it is taking so long because I think competition would move things along at a faster pace which benefits everyone.

carlk | 03/03/2018

So "Elon is correct in not worrying about profitability at this time. This is when you expand. Don’t let the others catch up. If they do, the profits Tesla earned today will be among the last."

Exactly the Amazon and Netflix model. They all know spending money, for the right cause of course, is not the problem. Not spending money and let competitors to catch up is.

bp | 05/03/2018

Since the Model S went into production in mid-2012, Tesla has had the only viable long range EVs on the market. Originally the Model S didn't have the supercharger network - and long distance road trips were an adventure hopping between RV parks or other locations with 14-50 outlets.

The Bolt has come closest - and is still like the early Model S cars - it has enough charge to handle daily driving with overnight home charging - but can't easily do long distance road trips without a high speed charging network.

The I-Pace is the first of what will be an increasing number of competing vehicles coming out over the next few years - that will have similar performance, range and features. Tesla's major short term defense will be the years Tesla has spent in building out an extensive supercharger and destination charger network, coupled with onboard software that helps managing charging during road trips.

Eventually the long distance high-speed charging problem will be addressed by the other manufacturers - and then Tesla will have to compete directly with the other manufacturers. Items such as missing onboard features (Apple CarPlay or Android Auto, software quality & reliability, ...) along with pricing will become more important.

So Tesla still has time to expand their product lines (S/3/X/Y, semi, roadster 2.0, ...), add missing features, and compete without tax credits directly with all of the other manufacturers.

sosmerc | 05/03/2018

Yes, Tesla has the time, but will they continue to have the money? THAT is the big question.

jordanrichard | 05/03/2018

No bp, other car companies won’t build a charging network as long as their are dealers who oppose EVs. Mary Barra (however you spell her name) said flat out that GM will not be supporting a charging infrastructure for their Bolt.