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Roll back why

Roll back why

I drove on the hilly streets of San Francisco lately and came to realize how bad the roll back is.

Tesla MS is loaded with sensors and computerized controls. Everything is under control and the breaks certainly.

This makes me wonder how come Tesla couldn't manage such simple thing as the roll back. It acts like a stick shift car from the 60-s.

Occasionally it will hold, however it is impossible to predict when it will hold and when not. Some say that a harder push on the brake pedal triggers a roll back hold, however it didn't work for me on many occasions.

Same applies to rolling forward. I must keep the brake pedal pressed all the time.

Actually the cars from the 60-s were better because they had the "hand brake". Tesla does have one however it is for the onboard computer to use at its discretion. The driver has no access to it.

If I bring my Tesla to a stop please keep it stopped until I press the accelerator. Don't force me to keep pressing the brake pedal. This is sooooo last century. What is here hard to understand and how it is hard to implement. You have done much harder things like TACC for example. TACC will stop the car and will hold it if there is a car stopped in front. Why it is so difficult to provide the same experience in regular driving mode.

Please Tesla do it. You can.

tes-s | 19. helmikuu 2015

Sounds like you may need service. Hill-hold works flawlessly for me.

ElectricSteve | 19. helmikuu 2015

OP wrote:
"If I bring my Tesla to a stop please keep it stopped until I press the accelerator. Don't force me to keep pressing the brake pedal."

Just to get things straight: You expect the car to *not* roll after a stop on an incline, where neither the brake-pedal nor the accel.pedal are pressed?
Is that what you are saying?

Uhm, no car works like that. In any car you have to keep pressing the brake-pedal to not roll forward or backward on an incline.

Hill Hold works by bridging the gap from letting go of the brake-pedal to pressing the accel.pedal. It only lasts one second but that is more than enough.
I live in the frigg'n Swiss Alps and it works fine for the folks here.

ElectricSteve | 19. helmikuu 2015

"Actually the cars from the 60-s were better because they had the "hand brake". Tesla does have one however it is for the onboard computer to use at its discretion. The driver has no access to it."

The Tesla has a "hand brake". Press the button on the stalk.

The more i read your OP, the more stupid it starts to sound. You are ranting about problems that don't exist.

I'm starting to see a pattern of folks have the wierdest, sometimes really f*cked-up expectations from a Tesla. They practically DEMAND the wierdest stuff sometimes. Most of the time from people that don't even own one (yet)...
And they often end with stuff similar to "Please Tesla do it. You can".

What these nutcases don't seem to understand is that Tesla wants the car to behave like a regular car in many aspects (because that is what most folks want. They don't want "wierd").

J.T. | 19. helmikuu 2015

@ElectricSteve +100

EdwardG.NO2CO2 | 19. helmikuu 2015

@ElectricSteve: "I'm starting to see a pattern of folks have the wierdest, sometimes really f*cked-up expectations"
Although I completely agree, what took you so long to realize this? (;-) Also your point on maintaining some level of familiarity with current ICE car functionality is true but hopefully the software will evolve adding more driver preferred options. Tesla will eventually become the accepted standard of functionality or the personal transportation device! Until then we will have to put up with OP like comments that may or may not have some value.

Grinnin'.VA | 19. helmikuu 2015

I'm with OP on this one. Obviously, since TACC keeps the car stopped until the driver pressed the Go pedal, Tesla could easily implement this feature.

Remaining stopped after stopping causes no problems that I know about. When stopping at a stop light or stop sign, it's inconvenient to need to hold your foot on the brake pedal. So I like the idea.

Some say: "No other car does this". So what? It's normal for Tesla cars do things a bit differently. For example, Tesla's regenerative braking is different and IMO better.

If you think OP's idea is a bad one, PLEASE explain what's bad about it.

carlk | 19. helmikuu 2015

The more i read your OP, the more stupid it starts to sound. You are ranting about problems that don't exist.

The rant IS about a problem but not problem of the car.

jordanrichard | 19. helmikuu 2015

Holy crap, can you guys not learn how to operate the car without someone holding your hand. Presumably you are educated people, yet you need your hand held and can't figure things out on your own.

Pressing the brake firmly will initiate the hill hold feature. How did I figure this out, I drove the car and recognized a pattern.

Also they are still cars, albeit fewer of them, that are stick shifts. So this is not a throw back to the dark ages of the 60's.

1BadNerd | 19. helmikuu 2015

In a car where you can turn "creep" on or off and set the level of regen, I think this is a reasonable idea to discuss. Personally, I think it's very low priority, but I don't see why discussing it is "stupid."

If the OP had said, as others have in other threads, that he's considering returning his car or he thinks he made a big mistake purchasing it because it didn't have this feature, then I think commentators are justified in being disparaging.

If release 6.2 has the following "creep" options: ON, FREE, HOLD, are current owners going to rant and rave that Tesla ruined their car?

J.T. | 19. helmikuu 2015

I think any functionality that makes it possible for a driver to not be prepared for any possibility is bad.

So, you're at a stop light, on a hill, not on a hill, and you engage "HOLD" which will keep the brake engaged until you press on the brake or the go pedal. What are you going to do with all that physical feedom? You don't need to keep your ass firmly planted in your seat with your foot on the brake pedal, so what are you going to do?

You'll probably turn around to talk to your kids, lean over and check something in the glove box, you'll stretch your legs, get romantic with your passenger anything and everything but keeping your eyes on what's going on around you and being prepared to react.

Maybe, you're facing your kids in the back and you see a car coming up at you fast that doesn't seem to be slowing down. You quickly turn and step on the go pedal but you didn't notice in time a mother wheeling her stroller in front of you and you kill them all.

As it happened the car that you thought was going to hit you was a Model S with Autopilot and the driver was testing out the new collision avoidance system, which works perfectly.

Not paying attention when you're behind the wheel is very dangerous. Making it easier to not pay attention doesn't help. While your car is ON and there are people and property around you, you owe to everyone to not be lazy and distracted.

So, keep your foot on the brake if you need the car to be stopped in traffic. It'll keep everyone safer.

pnajar | 19. helmikuu 2015

@ElectricSteve
"Uhm, no car works like that. In any car you have to keep pressing the brake-pedal to not roll forward or backward on an incline."

Actually BMW, for one, has offered an Auto Hold feature at least since my first in 2003. The way it works is once you apply the brakes it keeps the brakes engaged until a very light engagement of the accelerator. The car will not creep forward or roll back or move until the accelerator is engaged.

Hill hold is only a one second, or so, brake engagement and then a release. Why not wait for the accelerator to start moving before releasing the brakes? After all the car must sense the accelerator movement to move the car.

I'm just amazed at the number of people who buy a most technological advanced car and are so resistant to explore technological improvements suggestions with an open mind.

jordanrichard | 19. helmikuu 2015

I will grant you that the owner's manual does not say how hard the brakes need to be applied for the hill hold feature to be activated, but that's where learning that yourself comes in.

Does Tesla or any other car company need to spell out when one should apply the brakes as you come to a stop?

J.T. | 19. helmikuu 2015

@jordan +1

slevinn | 19. helmikuu 2015

I have resisted getting involved in these discussion in the past (don't need strangers passing judgements on the value of the discussion) but I don't think the OP is asking for something unreasonable. When I heard we were getting hill hold I presumed (incorrectly) that it would be like the BMW version of the feature.

(From BMW - Automatic Hold - This system assists the driver by automatically setting and releasing the parking brake, such as when moving in stop and go traffic.)

Personally, I used this all the time and would like to have something like it on the Tesla. If you had the feature on, it did not matter if you were on a hill or just stopped at a light. When the car came to a full stop, the parking brake would engage. When you step on the accelerator the parking brake would dis-engage. It worked perfectly. No roll back or roll forward and no need to step on the brake with some level of force etc.

shop | 19. helmikuu 2015

The BMW auto hold is a feature you have to enable every time you turn off/on your car by pressing a button near the gear selector. At least that's how it worked on my X5. I never remembered to press the button, so I didn't use it that often. When I did use it, it was 'cute'. Yes, it allowed me to rest my foot slightly at a stop. But the opportunities for mischief were certainly there. Reaching around back, the possibility of accidentally pressing the accelerator was real. In the end, I decided that the trouble of remembering to press the button wasn't worth the cuteness factor of the feature. Also, I was worried about unintended accel presses.

I think the way Tesla does it is fine.

mrspaghetti | 19. helmikuu 2015

@J.T. +1

AmpedRealtor | 19. helmikuu 2015

I'm with OP on this one. Hill Assist works inconsistently at best and it does not activate based upon pedal pressure. This is official per Tesla email to me last week. The Hill Assist is supposed to work on grades 4% and above, but not on smaller grades. That's why it works inconsistently and some link its use to pedal pressure - which is actually just a coincidence. When it works for me, no additional pedal pressure is required. This pedal pressure thing is nothing more than an urban myth/wives tale.

There is no down side to having Hill Assist hold in every situation until you press the accelerator pedal. This way it would provide predictable behavior across all terrain types. Whether in Drive or Reverse, whenever you come to a complete stop, hill hold will hold the car until you tap the accelerator to start moving again. Simple and elegant, works all the time, no confusion.

shop | 19. helmikuu 2015

Amped, I agree, but your suggestion is different from what the OP asked for.

zsicher | 19. helmikuu 2015

VW has this as well. Probably good to know the facts before you jump on someone for suggesting a potential improvement.

AmpedRealtor | 19. helmikuu 2015

@ shop - Right, I'm not advocating that the brake should engage on its own and without touching the brake pedal as the OP appears to suggest. I'm saying, once we apply the brake and come to a complete stop, just hold the car until I press the accelerator. Don't make it dependent on the steepness of the grade. This is a feature that we would expect to work on all hills, not just certain hills based upon grade, and can lead to confusion and some roll back situations when they weren't expected.

I realize that my suggestion won't work well for those who have creep enabled.

aarnold | 19. helmikuu 2015

You all are missing the point of what Tesla did and why they have it they way it is. When the car first came out, it was intended to be a free rolling car. Much like a golf cart. It is an electric motor that is free flowing in either direction. There is no clutch, no transmission (per say) and there is no torque converter. This is how it was meant to be. You come to a stop, you put your foot on the brake and keep it there until you want to go.

Then people said they wanted the feel of an automatic transmission. So they added the creep. This will actually help those who don't like the roll back on a slight incline, or want it to roll forward when your foot moves off the brake.

Then people did not like that the car rolled back on a hill. A bit of a safety issue. So they added the 1.5 second brake hold on an incline. Nice added feature I must admit.

What the OP is asking is for another added feature, much like the creep. Tesla should add a hold (Like someone mentioned in a post above about the BMW's) feature that will keep the car brake holding until you press the go pedal. Simple and easy. They can add it on the same screen as creep. Just call it Break Hold. Problem/Request solved.

TeslaTap.com | 19. helmikuu 2015

I'll jump in with the technical issues. Hill Hold works by using the motor to hold the car. This requires a large amount of energy and I'm sure heats the motor up very quickly (it's not turning). It's likely that holding the car in place with just the motor has major limitations on how long you can keep doing this, and Tesla determined a second is enough. You're using a lot of energy just to keep it in place. If using the motor to hold goes on for minutes (at a stop light), I suspect you'd see a significant range degradation. For these reasons I doubt Tesla will ever offer a Brake Hold feature on all cars (a different feature than the existing Hill Hold).

The electric parking brake on cars might be usable, but its not very fast to activate or release, and I suspect it would either feel unresponsive and/or very jerky.

The main brakes are now electrically controlled for cars built after Oct-2014 (with Auto pilot hardware). These could be used for a brake-hold feature, but it would then operate differently between older and newer cars. This may be acceptable and who know, Tesla may add this feature in the future.

Luxury cars that offer a Brake hold feature, usually (always?) have electric brakes. They often have a button that requires activation each time the car starts to enable brake hold. When enabled, it works at all times, press the brakes and come to a stop, and the brakes remain locked until you press the accelerator. Creep cannot be used with this feature. In addition, it tends to be slightly jerky when activating and releasing. Not quite up to luxury standards (on luxury cars I've used it on).

I had Brake hold feature on a car for 6 years and used it occasionally. It was nice, but it was low on my list of desirable features.

1BadNerd | 19. helmikuu 2015

What happens if you drive in hilly SF with TACC on? If you are tracking a car uphill or downhill to a stop? It doesn't stop and then start to roll, does it?

carlk | 19. helmikuu 2015

The one second activation of hill hold and the cancelation of steering wheel thumb control after a couple seconds have the same design philosophy. They will work perfectly if you're paying attention. Otherwise they will consider you are not interested in the function and go back to the default. A car needs to be designed for the average capable driver not the lowest common denominator.

BrassGuy | 19. helmikuu 2015

@TeslaTap Hill Hold works by using the motor to hold the car.
I'm quite sure this is incorrect. My car is a 2013, so has the older vacuum assisted brakes. If I release the brake on a hill and need to press it again before the hill start assist releases, the brake pedal is very high. This leads me to believe that something is holding the hydraulic brake, perhaps something to do with ABS. Also I'm pretty sure I'd have noticed the orange power bar by now as I'm much too conscious of it.

I suppose having a "hill hold" feature rather than the current function might be OK for some, but I prefer the current setup. If I'm facing down a steep hill, in heavy traffic, and the car is holding the brake until I press the accelerator, I may have to tap the accelerator and immediately switch back to the brake to keep from coasting too fast. In that case I'd rather control the start by easing off the brake myself, and possibly dragging it a bit to control speed.

Before the firmware update, I was skeptical about the introduction of the hill start assist and was hoping there would be an "off." It really works well as it is however. I would not change a thing about it.

Bighorn | 19. helmikuu 2015

@Brassguy
I'm also fairly certain that even pre-iboost cars are being held by the brakes and not the motor. I don't know how they accomplished this. I also suspect that the one second brake hold is fixed and not aborted by applying power. Therefore, a longer brake hold would fight the car's acceleration, if that is true. Now that there's AP hardware, a more elegant solution is certainly possible.

SeattleSid | 19. helmikuu 2015

When I got hill hold over the air I thought it was a fabulous addition, and I still do. One of many ways in which the car is better than when I bought it. For me it works perfectly; but then, I don't have (or see) a problem with keeping my foot on the brake when stopped on a hill. It's the only exercise I get.

BrassGuy | 19. helmikuu 2015

@Bighorn, I can confirm the hold is not fixed and I do not fight the brake when starting up a hill. I do not know how they do it, my guess would be the ABS is holding the brake and the accelerator triggers immediate release. I always beat the assist release, unless I'm testing the duration which seems like an excessive wait.

In fact, the hill assist releases faster than the parking brake, which I have felt on occasion when starting impatiently.

Bighorn | 19. helmikuu 2015

@brassguy
Thanks for the data--hadn't experimented with it enough to know. If it disengages with the accelerator, there may be the possibility of extending the hold, depending on the work around.

BrassGuy | 19. helmikuu 2015

I'm sure they can if they want to. I'd prefer they leave it alone, both for safety's sake and because I do often resist change.

Bighorn | 19. helmikuu 2015

BrassGuy
+1

Brian H | 19. helmikuu 2015

Electric;
weird. There's no such word as 'wierd'

aarnold;
per se. There's no such expression as 'per say'.

Grinnin'.VA | 19. helmikuu 2015

@ jordanrichard | February 19, 2015

Pressing the brake firmly will initiate the hill hold feature.

1. Since hill hold lasts for a very brief time, it doesn't help with waiting at stop lights.

2. My understanding is that hill hold works to prevent rolling in only one direction. If the car is in "Drive", it prevents the car from rolling backward; if in "Reverse", it prevents the car from rolling forward. Please correct me if I got this wrong.

I'm with aarnold.

What the OP is asking is for another added feature, ... Tesla should add a hold feature that will keep the car brake holding until you press the go pedal. Simple and easy. They can add it on the same screen as creep. Just call it Break Hold. Problem/Request solved.

I'd like to add a condition for this suggested new feature: If the car is in "Neutral", the car should roll freely instead of holding it stopped after the driver takes his/her foot off the brake.

If you disagree with this, PLEASE explain some practical problem it would cause!

risquared | 19. helmikuu 2015

@AmpedRealtor

Thanks for the support. No we don't have any disagreement. I said

"If I bring my Tesla to a stop please keep it stopped until I press the accelerator. "

I didn't say how exactly I will "bring it to a stop", could be by using the brakes.

Making the car stop without using the brakes is another subject. It is the subject of "one pedal driving". I'm a big fan of it. There are other threads open for comments on that subject.

Haggy | 19. helmikuu 2015

What the OP wants is TACC hold but without needing to turn on TACC. It works by putting on the brakes and brake lights and keeping them on until there's a slight touch to the accelerator pedal. It's not inconceivable to want a feature that's already there but to have it without the rest of TACC turned on. If it's on it's a moot point unless you are stopped with nobody in front of you. Now that I'm used to it, I sometimes find myself wishing the hold would be on when I'm not using TACC. If I'm on level ground, the only practical difference is that the brake lights will be off. This doesn't come anywhere near being a problem with the current design or a bad default behavior. The car works fine as is but I could see this as an added feature.

AmpedRealtor | 19. helmikuu 2015

@ TeslaTap.com,

Hill Start Assist, as it is officially called by Tesla, does not use the motor. If you drive with your windows rolled down, I think you can hear what sounds like the parking brake disengaging when you tap the accelerator. I'm pretty sure it uses the parking brake.

bejachb | 19. helmikuu 2015

@ElectricSteve +100000000000

Captain_Zap | 19. helmikuu 2015

I don't understand why anyone would use TACC in a city with hills and traffic lights. It is "cruise" control, after all.

Hill hold is fine. It was fine before we got hill hold too. But, hill hold does help drivers that move a bit slower. I'll probably appreciate it more as I get older.

As long as no one substitutes hill hold for a brake, I'm happy. I don't like getting rear-ended by people that don't keep their foot on the brake.

Brian H | 19. helmikuu 2015

Calling it Break Hold would be a mistake. Brake Hold would be better.

risquared | 20. helmikuu 2015

@Brian H
So nice for someone to care for the purity of the English language in this forum. Sometimes it is getting abused really bad.

J.T. | 20. helmikuu 2015

Really badly.

Brian H | 20. helmikuu 2015

No sh**, Sherlock! >;p

dan | 21. helmikuu 2015

The BMW i3 electric car is much more predictable than my Model S when it comes to behavior while stopped. In the i3, you can you bring the car to a complete stop by simply lifting your foot off the accelerator pedal. No push of the brake pedal is needed. Then, it keeps the car stopped until the accelerator pedal is pressed. I must admit, I have not tried this on really steep hills, but I can say this definitively: Where my Model S will roll unpredictably forward or backward when no pedals are pressed, depending on whatever slight slope is in the road, the BMW doesn't roll. It just stays put. To me, the BMW implementation provides a better user experience in two ways. First, the vehicle is more predictable. Second, the brake pedal is only needed for abrupt slowing/stopping, and is unneeded in everyday driving. The BMW is not a better vehicle than the Tesla, of course. But its implementation of regenerative braking and "holding the car still while stopped" is, IMHO, superior to Tesla's.

Dan

dan | 21. helmikuu 2015

... I should add that because of BMW's implementation, "creep mode" is not needed on that car. But on the Model S, "creep mode" makes the vehicle's behavior when starting out from a stop more predictable.

Dan

Captain_Zap | 21. helmikuu 2015

I find creep mode annoying. Thank you, Tesla for giving us a switch to turn it off.

Besides more regen and deceleration control so I can maneuver through corners properly again without needing brakes, my only other car related wish is to have creep driver profile related.

It is an unpleasant surprise when I get in the car and find that creep is turned on. I can't turn it off until I stop the car and put it in park. I have more control of the car when creep is off.

I can pull in the garage more slowly and I don't have to ride the brake. I let off the accelerator and the car stops. Plus, I have the added feature making it so that I don't have to battle with hill hold in the driveway. If I see that I am not lined up properly to enter the garage, all I have to do is let off the accelerator and gravity takes me back to the bottom of the driveway so I can have another run at the garage entrance. No wait for hill hold to time out, no jockeying of the transmission.

Another thing I like is that I don't roll forward unexpectedly in parking lots or in traffic when creep is off.

Many new owners want the car to have the vestigial artifacts of an automatic transmission. Yet, many owners love the ability to drive the car as if it has a manual transmission with its sportiness and its efficiencies.

The Model S has the ability to please everyone. If it was not for the Model S, I would have bought a car with an manual transmission.

Hopefully engineering will ensure that someone else's new feature will not interfere with another owner's enjoyment of the car.

NKYTA | 21. helmikuu 2015

+1 Cap'n

Haggy | 21. helmikuu 2015

@J.T.

Really badly.

Sentence fragment?

dan | 21. helmikuu 2015

I agree 100% with Captain Zap. Creep mode is only beneficial on the Model S because it removes unpredictability from the vehicle when at a complete stop. The way the BMW i3 is implemented, there are no uncommanded movements from the vehicle, even when at a complete stop with no feet on the pedals. I wish that were true in my Model S too. As it is, creep mode means that uncommanded motion is at least in a predictable direction. But it would be better if there was no uncommanded motion at all.

My preference: Creep mode off, and no uncommanded motion when stopped, even with no feet on the pedals. Note that this is largely *not* a behavior previously seen in automobiles. Previous automobiles were either like "creep mode on" (i.e.: automatic transmission ICE cars) or like the current "creep mode off" (i.e.: standard transmission ICE cars). The behavior that the BMW i3 implements is new, unlike either of those. I look forward to the Tesla software update that removes uncommanded motion when at a stop, even with no feet on the pedals.

Dan

Red Sage ca us | 21. helmikuu 2015

God.

J.T. | 21. helmikuu 2015

@Haggy Sorry, I should have copied and pasted the last sentence from the post above mine, the one extolling the virtues of proper English. :-)

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