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S60 popularity

S60 popularity

I've only started reading the fora recently and the lack of search makes it hard to tell if this has already been covered, but it seems there are very few here opting for the S60. This group of course may well not be representative of the general buying public, but does anyone have a feel for how sales of the S60 are going? I'm wondering if they may end up going the way of the S40 and be replaced with software-limited S85s if demand isn't high enough to justify producing two separate battery assemblies.

eye.surgeon | 26. joulukuu 2014

I'm realizing after a week of S85 ownership that a 60 would do 95% of what I need. Financially however I think getting the 85 won't cost you much more as the resale will be significantly better.

krissu | 27. joulukuu 2014

Should be bit below 10%. It keeps the starting price down. There are places where you can't drive much and there are people who do not drive much. Would be like filling up always when tank is half way.

jordanrichard | 27. joulukuu 2014

I debated between the 60 and the 85, but ultimately went with the 85. My line of thinking was something along these lines. It is known that the batteries over time will lose range, so it will be much longer before the 85 battery pack needs replacing than the 60. Also the 85 obviously has longer range so I felt that gave me more flexibility, meaning I can skip superchargers that otherwise I would have to stop at with the 60.

I also liked the fact that the 85 came with Michelins, vs the Goodyears on the 60. I have never been a fan of Goodyear tires. I have always bought Bridgestones and Michelins.

tes-s | 27. joulukuu 2014

10% increase in price for the 85. Most people think it is worth it.

trixiew | 27. joulukuu 2014

Well, at the risk of being ostracized, I opted for the S60. It has ample range for my daily driving and I prefer a plane ride over a long car road trip. It also allowed me to add on all the extra stuff to make it all purty.

Dwdnjck@ca | 27. joulukuu 2014

The sixty has 25 percent lower battery cost. This is not an insignificant number. The sixty is also a very useable car for most people. The sixty requires a little more patience on road trips. For local driving, range is rarely if ever an issue. From San Diego, I can't drive 100 miles in any direction and not run into a supercharger, or Mexico. I am not driving to Mexico.

julierca | 27. joulukuu 2014

I love my 60 (with extras) too, and will staunchly defend the decision not to go 85. If (when?) I feel the need for more range, it'll most likely be 4+ years down the line and a battery upgrade for cheaper than the $8000 85 difference will probably be available. I lucked out timing wise and got the unexpected thrill of autopilot sensors, and that eases my mind about future resale worth.

ratul | 27. joulukuu 2014

I asked the relative popularity question when I went for a test drive (Seattle outlet). I was told that they ratios they sell are 1:2 (i.e., 33% S60s).

Red Sage ca us | 27. joulukuu 2014

My guess is that the Model S 60, at least through the introduction of 'D' variants, probably represented around 30% of ownership. No, I have no statistics to support that conclusion. It's just a gut feeling.

But going forward, especially with the abrupt cancellation of the Model S 60D, which probably did not achieve a 200 mile range if test mules were built, I believe the Model X 60 will not see the light of day. I expect that around mid-2015 the final specifications for Model X will be revealed, and that a 100+ kWh battery pack will be announced for it. When that option is allowed for Model S, the Model S 60 will likely be discontinued.

It's all about perception of 'real world range', I think. Increasingly it doesn't seem to matter that most people drive within a daily 60 mile loop 95% of the time, or that such mileage is replenished during an overnight charge. The goal from this point forward will be to under promise, and over deliver when it comes to range of Tesla Motors products.

I woul suggest publishing the range estimates for continuous speed at 80 MPH, but saying it is for 65 MPH.

Mathew98 | 27. joulukuu 2014

Hmm, I got plenty of range for my S60. It suits 100% of my daily driving needs. I've taken it on a 2500 miles round trip up and down the East Coast going to Disney World via the supercharging network.

Of course speed affects range. Here's a few data point I collected during the trip.

Speed Range
----- -----
65 205
75 175
85 150
90+ Seriously? Do your really care for range at this speed???

Red Sage ca us | 27. joulukuu 2014

I think it is mostly about perception. Tesla Motors wants to achieve 200 miles range, minimum, as an EPA rating from now on. It looks as though the Model S 60 would get less than 190 if rated again today. Methinks that weight reduction will be a major consideration for the Model ≡, if it is to also reach 200 miles or more as an official rating. And considering the outrageous 'needs' that some express, it might be a good idea or the base version to have a 100 kWh battery pack standard, even if the base price went up to $39,900...

thranx | 27. joulukuu 2014

Perfectly happy with the 60. Suits 97% of my driving needs and the proliferation of sc's takes care of the rest.

I don't think it makes economic sense for the company to eliminate the 60 until they can get the price of batteries down. If the 60 constituted 10-15% of sales, then maybe. But not if it continues to run around 30% or above.

I prefer a fully-equipped 60 to a minimal 85. To put it another way: the best room in a cheap hotel is often much more enjoyable than a cheap room in an expensive hotel (found that out in Copenhagen).

carlk | 27. joulukuu 2014

@eye.surgeon

[i] I'm realizing after a week of S85 ownership that a 60 would do 95% of what I need.

That's pretty much the situation for everyone. That few percent of time you should still be able to find a way to get around it by better planning. Even if you can't it's still cheaper to borrow/rent another car but most people would just spend a little extra on the 85 for the convenience and peace of mind.

@lennier The 60 battery pack is just the 85 with part of the cells replaced with dummy cells. It's cheaper to make and there is no need to do it with software limited 85. The original 40 pack would use different type of cell, my guess is the same as the Roadster technology, and was never produced.

Red Sage ca us | 27. joulukuu 2014

By the way... At a certain cost per kWh for battery cells, Tesla could release a 60 kWh Model ≡ for ~$24,900... Along with the 100 kWh version at $39,900...

AmpedRealtor | 27. joulukuu 2014

Most of the Model S cars I've seen on the road here in Arizona are S60 models.

jbunn | 27. joulukuu 2014

I have one of the early 60's. We love her, and roadtrip often. I drove her between Seattle and San Francisco back before Superchargers on that route. We drive from SF to LA frequently, and we get there in about the same time as a gas car. Good times.

DTsea | 27. joulukuu 2014

My 60 is great and my spouse is happy about the $8000 I didnt spend. On road trips the extra 10 minutes at the SC is not that big a deal.

mrspaghetti | 27. joulukuu 2014

@Thranx the best room in a cheap hotel is often much more enjoyable than a cheap room in an expensive hotel

You might want to bring a black light with you to those cheap hotels. Or on second thought, maybe not...

mrspaghetti | 27. joulukuu 2014

@trixiew

We would never ostracize you for buying a 60.

If you set one of your favorite stations to 70's music, on the other hand...

mallynb | 27. joulukuu 2014

We don't need an S85. Originally we reserved an S40. In the prior year we had made only 2 trips beyond its range, about 1,800 and 2,100 miles each. We decided to keep our ICE road car for the longer trips.

Superchargers were announced 3 months later. When the S40 was discontinued, we upgraded to the S60 with the SC option. The increased cost was a stretch for us. So far we have used the ICE once for a 750 mile round trip where there aren't any SCs. After 11,000 miles on the S60, and charging at an SC twice, we have no regrets.

trixiew | 27. joulukuu 2014

@mrspagetti
Thankfully, one's presets are still secure.

Wilber | 27. joulukuu 2014

lennier:

another happy S60 owner here. and i have talked to a few S60 owners who are quite happy with their cars. I think us S60 owners are not necessarily 'fast car' people. Instead we are pretty much the former Prius or Leaf drivers. (of course there are exceptions to this).

And since i am technically oriented i enjoy seeing what kind of range i can get by going only 5mph over the speed limit. So far, quite happy with range. Seems i could get 208 no problem, but havent driven over 110 miles in a day yet. Since the S60 weighs less than the S85 it gets slightly more miles per Kwh. (less expense per mile)

But, i still enjoy 'punching it' when inclined, to enter freeways or to pass slowpokes...

Basically, i didnt want to wait three years (at least) for the model 3!

thranx | 27. joulukuu 2014

@mrspaghetti; there's cheap, and then there's cheap.

In the cheap hotel in Copenhagen, I had an enormous top floor corner suite with sweeping views in two directions, perfectly clean (Scandinavia, after all). Cost less than a minimal room at the Sheraton across the street.

julierca | 27. joulukuu 2014

I'm totally a fast car person! There's barely any difference in speed between the 60 and 85. And no Prius people I know I have come over to the Tesla side of life yet. They're all still very happy in their world. Not that there's anything wrong with that...

TeslaLandShark | 27. joulukuu 2014

80% charge on a well used S85 is about 205 miles rated range. That's a range charge on a new S60. The price difference is only $8K if you consider super charging. So going S85 makes sense to a lot of folks. That said, this is an incredibly expensive car. Even though I could afford to pay cash, I would not have considered spending even half this amount (yes, I'm a miser) on a car if this thing wasn't so friggin awesome! S85 delivered 3/5/13.

ssarker | 27. joulukuu 2014

We have had a 60 kWh for 20 months now. The Superchargers in this part of the Midwest are close enough that even I can skip some of them :)

SamO | 27. joulukuu 2014

I have over 43,000 miles in my S60 including two coast to coast trips and I still think it's the best deal out there.

BarryQ | 27. joulukuu 2014

I have a 40 that's a better deal! But my wife steals it too much, so I'm thinking of getting a P85D for myself. So we'd have to top end and bottom end model S!

trixiew | 28. joulukuu 2014

A Leaf or Prius? No, no, no, no, no.

EnglishGuy | 28. joulukuu 2014

My daily commute is 6 miles so I opted for the S60. I am hoping in 5 years I will have an option to replace or upgrade the battery with newer technology to overcome the drop in range. We also have an ICE (for now) to cover any trips that don't have SC coverage. As fun as the car is I am much more likely to fly to anywhere that is more than 4 hours drive away. My time is worth more to me than the saving in flight cost.

thranx | 28. joulukuu 2014

@EnglishGuy; agree with every one of your points.

lennier | 28. joulukuu 2014

Thanks for all the comments guys. Seems likely the 60kWh pack will be around for a while, so the choice remains to be made. In my case I really don't need the extra range of the S85 (inner city commuting almost exclusively), there are no superchargers within 1000km of me yet (and probably no use for them even if there were) so getting that for 'free' is pointless, and the opportunities to use the slight power increase are practically non-existent here.

Since I'll be struggling to 'justify' even the S60's purchase price at this stage I can't see a real argument for the S85 for me. Biggest concern might be if the sales here (Australia) are vastly skewed toward the S85 in comparison to other markets, affecting S60 resale adversely. Then it will depend a lot on the likely availability of upgrading down the track, which seems to be all speculation at this stage.

Haggy | 28. joulukuu 2014

I didn't even think about the 60. I figured that when spending that much money, I'd go the extra $10K especially when I considered that adding the supercharger capability to the 60 eats up 20% of that anyway.

Now that I have the car, I've yet to be in a situation where the 60 wouldn't have worked. The only exception were a few times when I didn't plug the car in for a few nights, but these days I'm more diligent anyway.

I've also yet to use a supercharger. The only recent trips I've done from Northern Ca to Southern Ca have been with my daughter's car because she goes to school there and driving home in her car was the only option. When she graduates, I'll have even less reason to go, and I'm way past driving the kids to Disneyland. I'm planning to go skiing next week, but there's no supercharger there or any charger that I can find. Had I planned the trip, I most likely would have made it near Truckee and had three chargers on the way, but for now, it comes down to what's where you need to go.

I think it's similar to the decision about whether to supersize your beverage. If you are paying $1.60 for a small, $1.85 doesn't seem like much more. But the 25 cents is more than the beverage is worth. $8,000 might not seem like a lot more to spend as a percentage, but if you aren't likely to use it, it's enough to buy a lifetime supply of toilet paper.

I'm likely to keep the car for a long time and I can't say what my driving will be like a decade from now, or what the supercharger network will look like. I also have no idea what sort of new batteries will be out there. All I can say is that when you consider range, you should also consider that you'd be likely to plug in every night, which takes literally a few seconds, so you can't compare it to how much you drive each week between fill ups. I think the latter is the starting point for too many people when they try to judge how many miles seem reasonable.

NetWatchR | 29. joulukuu 2014

When I buy my S, it will be the 85, but not because of range. The 60 gives me more than enough range to do all my driving, even the rare longer trips. The reason is the warranty. I drive between 25 - 30k miles a year. That 100k mile warranty will get eaten up in a hurry. I'd rather have the full 8 years/whatever-miles the 85 gives me.

Andrew_OH_70D | 29. joulukuu 2014

I took delivery of my S60 in March 2013. I have 56k miles on it, and have taken plenty of long trips. In 2013, I stopped at a lot of RV parks to spend hours on a NEMA 14-50 circuit.

Today, things are very different. We took delivery of our second S60 last month, and have access to Superchargers for our trips. Having an S85 would not change our Supercharger patterns on trips. It would, however, provide a nice cushion between charges, especially in cold weather.

I would really like to see a 25kwh or even 50kwh battery pack rental program for the frunk. That way, you could just rent the additional range for trips. It would be nice if it were also available for sale as well.

HenryT2 | 29. joulukuu 2014

I've got a 40 and it is good for 99% of my driving needs. There are 2 or 3 times a year when I need an 85 with supercharging. And that's after I moved to San Diego. In the Seattle area, it was good for 100%.

If I had to do it all over, I'd probably buy an 85 because even though a 60 would be adequate, the supercharging is "free" with the 85. And though I haven't really needed even a 60 on a daily basis, I frequently end up with 30 miles or less in range at which point the power draw limiter kicks in (as well as some occasional anxiety).

Of course, I decided to buy the car before they were produced so I didn't know whether I'd even get one and that it would be as awesome as it is.

I actually put down a deposit on a P85D the day it was introduced and then cancelled it because it just wouldn't suit my needs. Even now, I use my Model S far less than I used to because I have 2 children and a mother-in-law and the Model S doesn't do a good job fitting everyone. I'm forced to wait for the Model X. I wish I had the kind of money that would allow me to buy a P85D and just keep it for occasional use, but that's beyond my resources.

Grinnin'.VA | 29. joulukuu 2014

@ Red Sage ca us | December 27, 2014

And considering the outrageous 'needs' that some express, it might be a good idea or the base version to have a 100 kWh battery pack standard

I think we share a rather common concern about range anxiety. However, IMO, it's OK for Tesla to offer 'standard' 60 kWh batteries as long as they offer higher-capacity battery options, hopefully 100 kWh or more. "Soon!"

Go Tesla!

pbrulott | 29. joulukuu 2014

Love my S60. Does all I need and more. Expected to drive 20,000 km per year and did 24,000 km a year for the last 2. It covered more kilometers of travel than I originally anticipated (I have a 4x4 ICE as a second car for tough winter condition). The RWD, winter capabilities and lower range ended up being less of an issue than I thought.

Here in Canada, the 85 kWh battery pack is 8550$ more than the 60 kWh if you discount the SC option. Then add taxes +15% = $9832 + luxury tax of 1% per year for 7 years = 700$ = total incremental of $10.6K. For me, it was not worth it, I couldn't justify it since I will own this car for a long time.

I also find that Tesla Motors downplays the S60 on purpose so that they can sell more S85 or P85. For example, the 0-60mph at 5.9 sec is well over the time it takes to do it in real life (more like 5.3-5.4 measured numerous time on circuits and 0.2 sec difference with S85). Why would they do that? They also pulled the S60D off the list... My 2 cents.

Red Sage ca us | 29. joulukuu 2014

I foresee a time when standard capacity is so high, so far above what anyone would use in their regular, daily driving, that range is of no concern whatsoever. So much so that people may only plug in to top off once or twice a month... Or just use a Supercharger because thy want to be 'full' before a rad trip begins, as a matter of prudence, not because they have to be...

Overkill. Way more range than anyone needs, or will legitimately take advantage of... No lines at chargers... No inconvenience at all.

'Enough' might be perhaps 400 miles on a 70% charge... So why not make a car with 400 miles range on a 20% charge? Imagine a five minute splash and dash adding another 400 miles, because the higher the overall capacity, the faster the charging goes...

Doug H | 29. joulukuu 2014

I've had my MS60 for 18 months now. I have 77,000+ miles. I visited 23 states and supercharged over 100 times. This car has to be the best value. The S85 does offer a few amenities, but none are worth the $8K difference to me. I've driven S85 loaners. I barely notice the difference in acceleration. I have an 8 mile commute so I don't need the range on a daily basis.

7LJT8 | 29. joulukuu 2014

This thread has been very helpful. I have been eyeing a Tesla for over a year and have driven the 85 and P85. Stopped bothering with Inventory cars as that was turning into a useless adventure with my rep. Not going to buy a car that I haven't seen in person. So far, it's been difficult to find real world usage of the 60 and I never see them in CA. Have considered replacing my '08' 535i with a Tesla. Still love my BMW as it drives amazing and just hit 60k miles. Still, their is something about the Tesla I just really want to be a part of. Just thinking of leasing one for 3 years then see what happens after. Thanks for starting the thread and everyone for commenting on it. Great feedback on the 60 in this thread.

Windsurfer | 29. joulukuu 2014

I've had my 60 for 15 months. NO range anxiety. My daily commute totals 25 miles. When I bought my 60, there were no superchargers within hundreds of miles and the future of the company was uncertain, so I saw no reason to pay extra for something that did not exist at that time. For long trips (like visiting our daughter in college) we take my wife's SUV. I don't regret at all not having the 60. Having spent about two months with a loaner 85, I felt no appreciable difference in acceleration, and also the 85 felt heavier on the road (which it is). The 60, as others have pointed out, is more efficient than the 85 because of its lighter weight.

Sometimes it's easy to forget that in engineering terms, there is a virtue in simplicity, and less is often more. A colleague recently ordered a Tesla; because of his long commute, I recommended the 85 for him. Otherwise, the 60 is more than adequate for most drivers.

trixiew | 29. joulukuu 2014

I'm in California with an S60, just met a guy with a 2 year old S60 in the parking lot. My Tesla salesman actually encouraged me to get a 60 as I didn't care about extra speed or other performance bling. Did get it Supercharger ready.

I was a long time BMW girl. Love the quality, comfortable and gorgeous. The only thing I miss is the fun of a manual transmission. Everything else Tesla has it beat.

Brian H | 29. joulukuu 2014

English;
LiIon loses most up front; you'll likely be down only about 5% and plateauing in 5 yrs. UK's SCs will be so close together by then you'll be able to do hi-speed runs from Land's End to the Shetlands every vacation just for fun, and do "camper mode" in any byway that interests you. ;)

Haggy | 29. joulukuu 2014

trixiew,

There isn't a gear on the MS that you don't switch into manually. You have to shift to go in reverse. You have to shift to go into drive. There are no other gears. The car doesn't have an automatic clutch either.

Brian H | 29. joulukuu 2014

Haggy;
she knows. Was just missing the manual experience. Duh.

MitchP85D | 29. joulukuu 2014

Being a motorcyclist, I love shifting gears. But ever since I got my S60 last March, I don't miss shifting gears at all! In Houston, my wife and I find the S60 is all we need for range and acceleration. I used to ride my Honda Goldwing motorcycle everyday. But after the arrival of the 60, the Goldwing now has a lot of idle time.

trixiew | 30. joulukuu 2014

@Haggy

Thanks, you made me laugh. I've spent 2 weeks trying to find the clutch pedal. Now I can pull her out of the garage and drive!

james | 30. joulukuu 2014

I have an S60 with SC and the Tech pack.

It is a late model with the new seats and autopilot features.

It is fantastic!, no regrets.

I have a pretty heavy right foot and it does 165 miles in the winter, I expect high hundreds in the summer.

My data logger tells me it hits 60 in just over 5 seconds, so plenty quick enough.

Coil springs with 19 inch wheels are very comfortable too!

I have a boring car for long trips. I am hoping for more Superchargers soon in the UK and Europe, then I shall have a go.

I don't think it would make any difference to me if I had an S85, apart from the cash difference of course.

krissu | 30. joulukuu 2014

I have the same coming next week, late S60, but without SC. Coils, 19, tech, dual chargers, red, black leather with black alcantara headliner. Should look really cool inside. They also promised updated software to use CHAdeMO, then need just need the adapter later, as for S60 without SC enabled you need update possible only at Service Centre to allow CHAdeMO adapter usage later.

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