"EV's will never overcome their small part of the market because they don't offer any advantage to ICE vehicles." - GM

"EV's will never overcome their small part of the market because they don't offer any advantage to ICE vehicles." - GM

GM pays Astroturfers to claim they have Model 3 ( or T3 in GM parlance) and EV2 reservations.

But their true colors cannot help but shine through.

"The only advantage EV's have is lower emissions."

And cheaper fuel.
And better performance.
And quieter/smoother ride.
And fewer moving parts/less maintenance.
And fueling from home.

"People only buy EV's out of environmental concern."

Hey, did you realize GM speaks for all Tesla owners? Especially the ones who like to drive 7 people quicker than the fastest Corvette.

"Government action is required."

Finally GM's strategy is revealed: Going "full retard."

akgolf | 11. tammikuu 2017

Nice post.

Also less maintenance.

It's a shame GM doesn't put more money promoting EVs, but they apparently have chosen their side. Too bad it's the losing side.

They've come out with one compliance EV that they'd like to stop making if the government allows them.

Other manufacturers have seen the light and are planning on producing many models. They also don't pay astroturfers.

KP in NPT | 11. tammikuu 2017

He was believable for a very short time. But as he's become unhinged, his true motivation has come through.

No one who claims to have not one but TWO BEVs in his future would dis the future of BEVs the way he does.

Chunky Jr. | 11. tammikuu 2017

Until I can have a tanker truck come by my house each day and fill up my car with gas for less than $1/gallon, then EV is better than ICE in terms of convenience and cost of operating.

tstolz | 11. tammikuu 2017

I didn't see an official GM statement on this ... are you talking about Eagles FUD statements?

SamO | 11. tammikuu 2017


I'm going to say "unofficial statement" but that's only because I'm wedded to the truth. ;-)

@akgolf and @Chunky Jr. - I'll update the post with your wonderful suggestions.


+1 He wasn't believable in the beginning to me. I knew he/she was lying about installing solar. And no reservations either since deliveries have already begun in Portland . . . very sad situation. GM's bankruptcy (again) can't come soon enough.

Maybe then Tesla will be able to sell their cars unmolested in Michigan.

akgolf | 11. tammikuu 2017

And Tesla may need those abandoned GM factories for expansion! Maybe those Michigan politicians will be more agreeable by then.

PhillyGal | 11. tammikuu 2017

Every single time I go to a gas station I realize that I would (will and have) pay a LOT of money never to go back to one.

nadurse | 12. tammikuu 2017

Yeah i was thinking about this filling up my car in freezing ohio weather a week ago... man, in about a year (hopefully) i wont have to do this crap anymore. I can just pull into my garage and fill up my Tesla.

I know that theres a lot of fan-made Tesla advertisement videos, my personal fav is the "it is not a dream" video. Someone needs to make one contrasting filling up your gas vehicle, in the freezing cold with snow blowing around in a desolate arctic landscape, and alternatively pulling into your nice and cozy garage and plugging in your vehicle *cue soothing background music*. No snow, no wind chill, no pulling out a credit card or having to talk to the cashier when the pump doesnt take your credit card.

I think it could be made to be pretty funny and satirical, but also eye-opening to some. There may already be one like this but i haven't seen it, if so please post it haha.

cpmarino | 12. tammikuu 2017

Hey, I'm all for the movement and hoping to have a Model 3 by 2020, but c'mon now, it isn't THAT bad. Stick the nozzle in and then get back inside your nice toasty car, remove when done and move on. Why would you possibly stand outside waiting for it to fill if the cold weather bothered you that much?

And the big car companies will not shift until it becomes profitable for them to do so, it's that simple. They don't CARE what they produce, as long as someone is buying it. Thus, it's going to take some time before you see any significant shift, I'd say. The welcome news is that most companies, even the niche companies like Porsche, Lambo, Ferrari, etc. are experimenting with electric motor technology.

Gotta say, though, that I'd sooner drive a 1975 Ford Pinto than that Farrady FF91 disaster ... good god, who designed that thing? I applaud the effort, good for them, but damn that thing is butt ugly.

finman100 | 12. tammikuu 2017

Let's change that around a bit, shall we...

"GM will never overcome their small part of the market because they don't offer any advantage to EV vehicles." - Smart People

Bighorn | 12. tammikuu 2017

The reason that it's ill-advised to get back into your car while pumping gas is because a static charge can set-off a devastating explosion.

cpmarino | 12. tammikuu 2017

Well, thanks for jinxing me @Bighorn but static from what? Opening and closing the door? The resulting bounce of the car when I sit my fat a$$ in it? Jeez, now you're making me nervous ...

topher | 12. tammikuu 2017

"The reason that it's ill-advised to get back into your car while pumping gas is because a static charge can set-off a devastating explosion."

What about the guy next to me getting in his car? It is like the rule that you have to turn off your car; they guy pulling in next to me has his car running.

Thank you kindly.

Red Sage ca us | 12. tammikuu 2017

cpmarino: Oh, yes, it is indeed 'that bad'. Because you probably need to clean your windows and headlights. Maybe even do a walkaround to clear chunks of ice and snow and mud and grime and slush. Plus, Bighorn is always right. Check YouTube for examples of spontaneous static electric fires at gas stations.

Actually, the traditional automobile manufacturers absolutely DO CARE what motivates the vehicles they assemble. They each feel it is a point of professional pride to showcase their chosen engine design. They might outsource just about everything EXCEPT engine design, because that is the core identity of those firms. Their upper management tends to have come up through the ranks of their engine design teams. It is a tradition that leads to bias against EVs.

Some are dedicated to pushrod V8s, others to horizontally opposed 4-cylinder & 6-cylinder engines, or inline 4-, 5-, or 6-cylinder engines. Then there were Wankel rotary engines or turbine engines. While some turbocharged everything, others preferred superchargers, while some invested in diesel.

Such decisions have been celebrated, examined, and argued over by manufacturers and their fans for decades. Ford to Ferrari, Chevrolet to Porsche, Honda to Volkswagen. And through all the debates everyone can walk away feeling that they 'won' at the end.

No such solace to be found against electric vehicles for gearheads, though.

And none of this gets into the economic nature of their attachment to ICE. Cars have been not much more than rolling spare parts conveyances for decades. The Remove & Replace 'repair' industry is what keeps the coffers full on the back side of a new car sale. With electric cars a sizeable portion of that revolving revenue stream is GONE. Because you cannot design an electric car to purposely fall apart outside of warranty in a timely, predictable fashion.

"Aerodynamics are for people who can't build engines." -- Enzo Ferrari

nadurse | 12. tammikuu 2017

Yeah @cpmarino, youre not supposed to because of static electricity supposedly from your body rubbing against the seats or the car I'd assume, I'd say the chances are slim but i dont know. I'm not saying i cant handle the cold, but it is a perk. Since the topic of this post is that electric cars have no benefit over ICE cars, I am giving you a perk from a lifelong resident of northern ohio, No special trips to the gas station in the cold, just plug in at home no fuss.

Let me ask you this, in what area of the country/world do you live?

Topher just because someone else does something your not supposed to doesnt mean its OK for you to do it. I think they teach that at preschool/kindergarten age.

dave.m.mcdonough | 12. tammikuu 2017

Exactly why GM is a follower, not a leader.
Next year we will look at the Bolt and want to hand it a "you tried" sticker just out of pity.

KP in NPT | 12. tammikuu 2017
Red Sage ca us | 12. tammikuu 2017

topher: It may well be you live in a place where you may never encounter someone wearing tight rubber pants driving with vinyl seats on a hot day with low humidity that decides to fill their pickup truck and multiple jerry cans in the rear bed while they are smoking a cigarette with the engine running. But honestly? Gasoline fumes are extremely volatile and it doesn't take that 'perfect storm' to set off a disaster at all. Just really bad luck. And silly, stupid actions too often lead to extremely bad luck.

cpmarino | 12. tammikuu 2017

Okay, not being a naysayer here, because I'm sure you guys are right. I live in CT, spent time living in Syracuse, have always lived in the Northeast, where it's obviously cold a lot. I can promise you that if you pull into any gas station in New England on a cold day, or a warm day for that matter, nobody shuts off their car when they gas up. At least, very few do. Never even gave it a second thought. One time I drove away from the gas pump (don't ask) while the nozzle was still in my car AND still pumping. Got several blocks down the road and the guy next to me (laughing hysterically) pointed out the nozzel and half the hose sticking from my gas tank. My god, if that didn't cause an explosion, I can't imagine a little static could ... but I'll certainly take your advice.

@Redsage: I respectfully disagree sir. Ferrari most certainly cares about engines. GM couldn't give a whit, they're going to build what people are buying. Yes, the guys that have built Corvettes and Camaros all their lives certainly care, but as a company? No way. The only thing any public company cares about these days is quarterly earnings and making money, with the very notable exception of Tesla, which is why we all love Elon Musk. GM and Ford would switch to selling popsicles tomorrow if it was more profitable. But they can't, because their shareholders aren't nearly as patient and blindly faithful (I'm among them, so I'm not throwing shade) as Tesla's.

topher | 12. tammikuu 2017

"Topher just because someone else does something your not supposed to doesnt mean its OK for you to do it. I think they teach that at preschool/kindergarten age."

Do they also teach reading comprehension? The other guy driving into his stall HAS to be running his engine. How else would he get there. Unless gas is pumped synchronized, with cars all entering at the same time, people exiting and entering their cars at the same time, and the entire area cleared of gas fumes between each operation, there needs to be different safety measures, as those just won't work.

Thank you kindly.

KP in NPT | 12. tammikuu 2017

Wow really @cpmarino? I've lived in NE for 20 years and I've never seen people leave their car running. Getting back into car in winter? yes. But not leaving it running.

bmwgs | 12. tammikuu 2017

Here in SW Florida,except for a few days this winter,I've been in shorts and a t-shirt when leaving the hacienda. My concern when putting gas in is whether to use SPF 15 or SPF 30. If you make that video,please include us too.

cpmarino | 12. tammikuu 2017

@KP really? Hell when I worked at a gas station in the 1980s, people would openly smoke cigarettes while pumping gas, so maybe I'm jaded. Indeed I filled up on Monday, at -1 degrees, and there was a thick cloud of exhaust fumes under the canopy from all four cars filling up.

Frank99 | 12. tammikuu 2017

All I've got to say is, I'll be greatly relieved when I can rent an EV on business trips rather than an ICE.
Running to the airport yesterday, having to negotiate the slalom course of stopped/filling/unsure of the concept cars in the overcrowded gas station which is the only one within 3 miles of the airport and on the road in, being forced into intimidating other cars trying to worm their way in in front of me while waiting, all to put 3 gallons of gas into the Rental because I'm too cheap to let Enterprise charge me $8 a gallon to do it for me.
I'd expect that whole issue to be resolved with an EV. Maybe not - maybe they'll have the same model, charging $1 / kwh if you don't bring the car back fully charged. Sigh.

jordanrichard | 12. tammikuu 2017

There are a lot of over exaggerated myths about pumping gas and the dangers associated with static electricity. You can't talk on your cell phone due to the HUGE amount of EMF coming out of the phone, but that car pulling up while your gassing up, with 50,000 volts flowing through its ignition system is of no concern......

I understand and agree about the concern over smoking while pumping, or more specific, the concern of a match/cigarette falling into a puddle of gas.

bmwgs | 12. tammikuu 2017

"A puddle of gas"?

mntlvr23 | 12. tammikuu 2017

@Frank99 - when I rented a Tesla on Turo, they gave me the MS with over 80% charge and asked me to return it with at least at 40% charge. Not necessarily what the big rental chains will do one day (as they will try to skim additional fees wherever possible), but that was my first experience.

jordanrichard | 12. tammikuu 2017

bmwgs, often people don't pay attention when pumping gas and try to fill every inch of the tank and it overfills, runs down the side of the car and on to the ground.

Actually that is the real reason why you shouldn't be sitting in your car while pumping gas. Though there is a mechanism to trip to stop gas from going in, but they don't always work.

Haggy | 12. tammikuu 2017

The advantages of my Model S include:

Not having to go to gas stations.
Not having significant delays on road trips.
Not having to pay a lot to fuel the car.
Having the ability to ride in diamond lanes, which originated as a way to cut air pollution.
Being able to pay lower tolls or no tolls in some places.
Not being dependent on foreign oil.
Not leeching off of taxpayers as a result of oil industry subsidies.
Having a far more environmentally friendly car.
Not having range anxiety since I start each day with a complete charge.
Not waking up and finding that somebody left me with an eighth of a tank of gas when I need to get somewhere.
Not seeing a "next gas 30 miles" sign and realizing that it's already late enough that gas stations at my current location are closed for the night.
Having more trunk space in the back than other cars.
Having more trunk space in the front than other cars.
Not having a center hump in the floor board.
Having a quieter, smoother ride.
Having low end torque and quick acceleration, rather than peak HP at 4500 RPM.
Having a low center of gravity and stability due to battery.
Having better weight distribution due to the lack of an engine.
Having even tire wear from front to back.
Not having to worry about sitting in the car when it's powered on in my garage.
Knowing that the car can be set to cool itself off if a child or pet is left in the car accidentally, while doing so with an ICE could create a CO hazard if the engine had to come on.
Having strangers offer to load my groceries for me. (i.e. after seeing my hood open, asking me if I need any help)
Not needing oil changes, and not having things such as oil level which, if I fail to check, could destroy the car.
Being able to leave the radio or headlights on for an entire day without coming back and finding a dead battery.
Not burning up resources when I'm stuck in traffic or stopped at a traffic light.
Being able to return from a ski trip with less rated range than I need to get home, but have regenerative braking add range to spare on the way downhill.
Being able to "refuel" from just about anywhere there's an outlet in case of emergencies.

Those are the advantages I can think of off the top of my head. There are probably others I missed or that I simply take for granted. That doesn't even include the advantages of owning a Tesla, such as autopilot or anything else that's not a direct result of it being an EV. That would be a separate and not necessarily short list.

Another potential advantage is that if I need to return a rental car without a full charge, the state PUC might not allow a rental car company to charge more than a certain rate because any fee would make them a public utility.

mntlvr23 | 12. tammikuu 2017

Haggy +1, nice

FREE ENERGY | 12. tammikuu 2017

ICE´s are trash, PERIOD.

nadurse | 12. tammikuu 2017

LOL @topher, point taken but whatever man im not going to split hairs because its a moot point either way its probably unlikely.


SamO | 12. tammikuu 2017

FIAT joins the ranks of murderers, charged with violating common decency and should be bankrupted.

Oh wait, they are already heading in that direction.

Thanks Sergio!

The flying hippie | 12. tammikuu 2017

Static concerns are not from rubbing against your seat. As the car drives through the air, air molecules flowing around it rub on the car causing a charge to build up over time. Since the car is insulated from the ground by its tires this charge doesn't dissipate. You pull in to that gas station but unbeknownst to you the pump has a bad ground. You start pumping and the gas fumes are all around you. Now you decide to get back in the car and touch the exterior metal part of the car for the first time and set off a small static discharge and ignite the gas fumes all around you. It happens.

Frank99 | 12. tammikuu 2017

There's a reason that aircraft connect a ground line before refueling.

There are a lot of reasons that static could build up - from the brakes, from the tires, from air motion, from sliding across a nylon seat while wearing wool bloomers, from a nearby thunderstorm. It's a very rare event when there's enough of a charge to ignite gas fumes, but it demonstrably occurs (or used to; almost all the stories I could turn up about it were written in 2000-2002 or so). Just one more thing I won't have to worry about.

dave.m.mcdonough | 13. tammikuu 2017

The driving away from the pump story made me think of something.. Gas pump hoses have a break-away connection that safely disconnects the nozzle from thh pump when this happens. Does the Tesla have any feature to prevent uprooting the charging system is someone forgets to unplug it? will the plug just pop off without breaking the socket?

SamO | 13. tammikuu 2017


You car will not go into drive when plugged in.

KP in NPT | 13. tammikuu 2017

+1 SamO. If you attempt to put the car into drive while plugged in, it will not do it and you get a popup box on your screen that the car is unable to drive because it's plugged in.

andy.connor.e | 13. tammikuu 2017

When i buy a gasoline car, i immediately feel like i have to start thinking about getting rid of it. They depreciate in value so fast, that its almost not even worth getting another one. They dont last. 10 year old car is going to start breaking down, and the next few years after that threshold you are going to be replacing critical components that are going to cost you as much as the value of the car. Its literally not even worth it, because you end up putting the same amount into it for maintenance as what you paid for it. Its like buying 2 cars just to make 1 car run for 15 years. Not worth.

Red Sage ca us | 13. tammikuu 2017

andy.connor.e: Hence, why I refer to them as 'rolling spare parts conveyances'.

Haggy | 13. tammikuu 2017

Also, you will not be able to summon your car when it's plugged in. That goes without saying, but the point is it can't happen by mistake.

Now if only they could assure the garage door couldn't close when the tailgate is left open...actually Tesla could prevent you from originating it from within the car.

cpmarino | 13. tammikuu 2017

To be fair, though, what is still unknown largely is the lifespan of the battery pack and, ultimately, the cost of replacement, right? Running costs of an EV should certainly be significantly less outside of normal tire wear ... very few other mechanical parts, brakes should last significantly longer, etc. But if a battery pack is $10k, that sorta levels things out. Based on my time on this forum though, I'm not aware of anyone actually needing a new battery pack due to old age ...

Red Sage ca us | 13. tammikuu 2017

cpmarino: I think it much more likely someone would want to upgrade to a higher capacity battery pack for a significant increase in range than actually need a replacement in ten years due to either degradation or failure. Want vs need. Don't worry about it.

Bighorn | 13. tammikuu 2017

The engine on my Ford pickup costs about $24,000 to replace. I'm hoping the $5000 broken turbo didn't crater it.

Bighorn | 13. tammikuu 2017

Ford has operating margins of 12.9%--you do the math.

SamO | 13. tammikuu 2017


It's amazing how hyperbole can take an otherwise reasonable and rational sentiment and warp it into FUD.

tstolz | 14. tammikuu 2017

The battery life question has already been answered since we have lots of owner data now .. they last well beyond the life of the car.

Packs at that point still have huge value and will end up having a second life for grid storage afterward.

After 400,000 - 500,000 km my 85 kw battery will still have about 75 kw available ... at that point the car could go to someone who just needed a 75 and/or the pack could be used in home solar ... 75 kw would be sweet!

This means pack depreciation over 10 years and 500,000 km would be 10 kw ... peanuts.

tstolz | 14. tammikuu 2017

Eagles thinking is why I don't buy GM stock. Lol

dyefrog | 14. tammikuu 2017

So, let's see. Engine, transmission, alternator, exhaust manifold, intake manifold, fuel injection, catalytic converter, oxygen sensors, spark plugs, ignition coils, alternator, radiator, water pump, fuel pump, belts, pulleys, oil filter, air filter, turbocharger, supercharger, gas tank, gas lines. All for $2,000. I'll take a couple

akgolf | 14. tammikuu 2017

@tstolz - Other than mutual funds in my 401K I've never purchased stocks directly. I just retired and rolled over a portion of my 401K into Tesla stock. I think after the next reveal it will take off. I hope I don't kick myself for not buying more.