Forums

"Searching for the Super Battery"

"Searching for the Super Battery"

This was a very informative NOVA program on PBS last night, hosted by David Pogue. (Meaning he was silly in some places.)
It showed what is being done to combat exploding batteries, different types of batteries for various purposes, latest technologies, and yes, it even touched on Tesla's newer 2170 battery.
Considering the production went to Tesla when producing the show, I'm sure Tesla knows everything in the program, and then some.

Lubdub | 02. helmikuu 2017

excellent program

sosmerc | 02. helmikuu 2017

I just got through watching it....very cool indeed!

RedShift | 03. helmikuu 2017

Very nice program. Thanks for sharing!

RedShift | 03. helmikuu 2017

For anyone who wants to watch, and marvel at what might be coming down the road:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/tech/super-battery.html

It's a must-watch.

rlwrw | 03. helmikuu 2017

dfyweryh copied my comments from this thread and started another thread with them.
Plagiarism!

reed_lewis | 03. helmikuu 2017

I flagged the other thread, and hope that others do also.

Rocky_H | 03. helmikuu 2017

Yes, that is odd. I did flag that other thread that was plagiarizing.

rxlawdude | 03. helmikuu 2017

Melania? Ms. DeVos? Are they on these fora now? ;-)

Bighorn | 03. helmikuu 2017

Sponsored by David Koch''s Fund for Science.

RedShift | 03. helmikuu 2017

@bighorn

I saw that! He is hedgin'.

janendan | 03. helmikuu 2017

Battery News - December YouTube from the Churchill panel including tesla connected media, private equity, grid, and solid energy's Q. Hu who dropped a big one at the end. Lithium Air

like2bike | 04. helmikuu 2017

I'm concerned this show had a hidden agenda to discourage potential EV buyers by making the batteries seem more dangerous than they are. I realize I may be biased by the obvious conflict of interest of the sponsor. I came to watch the show after a friend strongly suggested I watch it in response to a discussion about the safety of EV batteries. The first time watching it I wasn't much concerned with it having an anti-EV agenda. However, later thinking about it I decided there is fire there, literally and figuratively. Here are my concerns:

The battery in the test camber at Sandia was implied to be a Li-Ion EV battery but they they never said what it was. They did say “The kind of thing that could happen in an EV crash” though. I can't say there isn't an EV battery that would burn like that but I doubt there is.

At Sandia, they flashed a picture of glove box gloves almost subliminally and without any explanation. These are normally associated with handling of nuclear material.

They stated “There have been numerous cargo plane crashes involving Li-Ion batteries” There has been only two. Then they flashed, again almost subliminally and without any explanation, a picture of the Boeing 787 APU battery, made by GS Yuasa, that caught fire but never caused a crash. The two crashes involved large quantities of cellphone batteries in cargo.

Tesla Gigafactory will make batteries “faster than bullets from a machine gun”. Elon did say this in a phone call but but publicly. I had never heard the quote before and find the choice of using in the show suspicious.

I had other minor issues with the show but these are the ones I find most concerning.

RedShift | 04. helmikuu 2017

@like2bike

" I can't say there isn't an EV battery that would burn like that but I doubt there is."

You obviously have not seen the video of the Tesla crash where the batteries were going off like fireworks.

http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/tesla-model-s-battery-explodes-afte...

I think you are making too much of the things shown during the program. And I am a liberal.

janendan | 04. helmikuu 2017

The super battery will always be lithium metal(foil) with polymer electrolyte/ separator. The PBS program mentioned one such battery, but there are others. Qichao Hu's 'SolidEnergy' is another. Check out the YouTube of Churchill pall discussion on battery update.

like2bike | 05. helmikuu 2017

@RedShift

Thanks for showing me that Tesla crash story. I had not heard about it. That's some wild fireworks. They did say magnesium was involved also. We can still say no one has died from an EV fire however:

http://fox59.com/2017/02/02/marion-county-coroner-releases-cause-of-deat...

like2bike | 05. helmikuu 2017

@janendan

I also found that the solid polymer electrolyte story was incomplete. It's not a new idea like they implied. It's an old idea that still hasn't been made practical.

Efontana | 05. helmikuu 2017

The grill treatment the blue Model S car he is driving at 3:10 looks odd. Was that version ever introduced?

I don't have the greatest dexterity with Teslas.

RedShift | 05. helmikuu 2017

@like2bike

Lithium is by far much more potent when mixed with a combustible ( I know, I'm flabbergasted they haven't found a safer material for the electrolyte) electrolyte. Magnesium is mainly used to lighten the chassis. In Yesla I could find references to the radiator support. In bulk material such as those it's almost impossible to combust unless large fires are involved, which 100% likely started from the batteries. IOW it's secondary effects.

RedShift | 05. helmikuu 2017

Yesla=Tesla

David N | 05. helmikuu 2017

Nice video, thank you for sharing the link.

dchuck | 06. helmikuu 2017

@like2bike +1

I didn't do a count while i watched, but as a guess they showed 2x more burning/exploding batteries than functioning ones.

There are safety issues with Lithium-ion batteries but there are literally Billions of batteries in use every single day, and 1,000's of fires. However the program made it seem as though the chances of a fire are 1/100 not 1/1,000,000

djharrington | 06. helmikuu 2017

I believe Koch has been sponsoring Nova since I watched it as a kid.

sosmerc | 06. helmikuu 2017

It seems to me that the emphasis on improved safety is the primary motivator for finding solutions and that as a result of that research the added bonus is going to be superior batteries. They did a great job of showing the dangers, but an even better job of showing the work that is being done to find the ultimate "Super Battery"!

RedShift | 06. helmikuu 2017

@sosmerc

+1

I guess some people have to follow nd conspiracies because of the sponsor. Keep an open mind, fellow libbies.

RedShift | 06. helmikuu 2017

Find not follow nd

RedShift | 06. helmikuu 2017

Find not follow nd

djharrington | 06. helmikuu 2017

Redshift- exactly. Koch's sponsorship of Nova goes back as long as I can remember. Wait, I know: he's been sponsoring the show for decades, all to set up a. Ias view on EV batteries in 2017. Yes, that must be what's going on here :)

ken.hixson | 06. helmikuu 2017

I enjoyed the program. Seems the "salt" battery is a good solution where weight isn't a factor. 2017 might be a year where we see some significant progress on the battery front.

RedShift | 06. helmikuu 2017

If they can scale the solid polymer electrolyte then we can say bye bye to ICE. I am hopeful, but there is big difference between prototyping and production...

brando | 07. helmikuu 2017

search

car fire data

tstolz | 07. helmikuu 2017

The thing that caught my eye was the implication metal foil was close to production ready. I doubt it. Battery hype has been constant for years. Batteries need to have high power, capacity, they need to last, and be safe. Show me the battery .. not the ppt.

Tarla's Driver | 14. helmikuu 2017

(previously posted on the other thread started on this show)

Yes, that was fascinating. The part about using a solid electrolyte allowing for solid lithium was particularly interesting. Seeing how they're made, I expect it wouldn't be a huge retooling to switch from one to the other, so as technology changes, the Gigafactory can adjust as needed.

Talking about a 2x-3x improvement over the next ten years is also fascinating. I think that may be pessimistic if significant technology changes take off. That could result in a Model S 300D with a range of 1000 miles! Talk about reducing congestion at Superchargers.

I also found it interesting that the new battery format that Tesla is moving to is only 5mm taller. That sounds to me like they could figure out a way to make a compatible battery pack using them for the existing cars, though there may be a hard cutover. I would like to think that in a decade, I would be able to buy a new battery pack with much longer range, but that depends on whether new packs are compatible with old cars.

The part about grid storage suggests that the Tesla solution isn't optimal, but we'll see how that goes. The point about not caring too much about energy density for grid batteries is valid, so LiIon isn't the obvious solution.

Nexxus | 16. helmikuu 2017

@Tarla's Driver,

The new battery is only 2mm taller and 5mm larger diameter. Old: 18650; 18mm tall x 65mm dia. New 2070; 20mm tall x 70mm dia. And I think Elon said they would fit inside the current battery framework height wise, as there is sufficient head room to install them.

Tarla's Driver | 16. helmikuu 2017

I had assumed they were standing up in the battery pack, making the 65mm vs 70mm the critical measure, but I've never looked inside.

Nexxus | 17. helmikuu 2017

I'm sorry. My bad. I meant 18mm diameter x 65mm tall (old) and 20mmdiameter and 70mm tall. And you are right they are standing up in the battery case. So, 5mm taller, but Elon said they would still fit inside the existing case and framework.

Bighorn | 17. helmikuu 2017

@Nexxus
21mm

brando | 30. toukokuu 2017

I'm no longer able to create Original Posts.
(perhaps because I'm not an owner? nor reservation holder?)

Internal GM training video for the GM / Saturn EV1 Electric Vehicle

https://youtu. be/78nPC8-N6sg

UnshodBob | 30. toukokuu 2017

@brando - here's a clickable link to the 22 minute video

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=78nPC8-N6sg&feature=youtu.be

RedShift | 30. toukokuu 2017

I really have to wonder about the solid state battery and it's scalability. It seems so simple.

brando | 31. toukokuu 2017

thanks Bob -
and mentioning 22 min. is also great as some may mistake pauses between clips as the end.
Could you believe how advanced the EV1 actually was? How far GM has fallen to Volts and Bolts.