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2017 Honda Civic Type R VS Model 3

2017 Honda Civic Type R VS Model 3

On paper very similar 0 to 100km/h how much heavier will the Model 3 be but will it have more torque. Great to see a side by side comparison once model 3 is released. I would love a sport package available for the Model 3 i.e. Recaro type colour match seats, harder suspension option light tasteful body spoilers and wing. Any thoughts out there in cyber world or have I just offended every Model 3 reservation holder :)

JayInJapan | May 29, 2017

Just know that Tesla is building Teslas. They are not trying to emulate models from other companies. You can customize all you want.

ReD eXiLe ms us | May 30, 2017

100% torque at 1 RPM is kind of hard to beat with an ICE. Very likely impossible. No matter how many R's and RS's and Si's and GTi's and WRX's are thrown at the badging on the back of the car, ICE is going to LOSE in the Street Light Grand Prix. On a race track, there is some slight hope that the base version of the Model ☰ might cross the finish line behind an ICE powered all wheel drive fire breathing smoke churning car like the Ford Fiesta ST, Ford Focus RS, Volkswagen Golf GTi... Sometimes.

Oh... But once the Model ☰ Performance editions arrive, those guys will stand no chance whatsoever. Ever.

JeffreyR | May 30, 2017

@ReD +1
One thing to remember is that BEVs are not light-weight track cars. They will rule at the drag strip (as many online videos prove), but long, high-speed runs will drain the battery. So unless the track has good charging, I would not plan on bringing a M3-P75DL.
Lots of other reasons to get one though!

Ehninger1212 | May 30, 2017

@5ideoezy
Not offended at all! In fact I am aiming for doing similar things to my model 3 once I take delivery.

I'm planning on the non upgraded wheels so I can purchase my own light weight wheels, semi gloss black with a slight dish, staggered.

A small spoiler on the back like the P cars get now would look nice.

I'll stiffen up the suspension if and when that becomes available aftermarket, but only lower 1/2" max!

Possible install an after market audio system with some backlit plexiglass inclosure, depending on tesla offering an upgraded audio system or not.

All tastefully done of course.

I will probably leave the interior mostly alone, depends on what I can do that won't look dis tasteful.

I hope to see a larger crowd of people personalizing the model 3. I can't leave cars alone. Ever.

nadurse | May 30, 2017

A stock civic type r wont have anything for a base model 3, let alone when the performance version of the 3 is released.

Even if the 0-60mph times are similar, estimated civic 5.4 and estimated model3 5.6, the model 3 will win most of the time. The civic type R only comes in 6 speed manual transmission, so the driver will have to put together a perfect pass everytime for it to beat the model 3 in a race. And from the honda fan boys that I know, most of them are not that good of drivers.

The downside of course is that for performance mods, there isnt much that can be done for EVs at this point in time, whereas the civic will have a multitude of options that you would expect for a turbocharged ICE if thats what you want to do. On EVs about the only things you can do are suspension, tires, and weight reduction mods. These all help but its unlikely that they will be drastic improvements. So if you are looking at high performance stuff then the civic would have a higher ceiling, at this point. Non-performance mods you know you can do whatever, its still a car.

ReD eXiLe ms us | May 30, 2017

nadurse: All those 'higher ceiling' options on the Civic equal higher emissions, greater amounts of noise, and far worse fuel economy. Then there is poorer ride quality, fewer creature comforts, and the need to use a pickup truck to tow the trailer to the track. Because it probably won't be street legal anymore once you are done reaching those heights. And, for the money you spent in $25,000 to $40,000 in aftermarket modifications, you could have just stowed that dough in the kitty and waited for the Performance version of the Model ☰, which would have been quicker, and faster, and more comfortable, and a lot quieter, while still being street legal.

LA-Fohlen | May 30, 2017

You see, for most of the people here a quiet car, better ride etc is the way to go. But out there are a lot of people who think that performance requires a sporty sound. For me I take the Model 3 but I don't think ICE is dead yet.

Model_D | May 30, 2017

I'm not so sure a Model 3 will be the best Track Day car. It might only be good for a few laps before overheating.

The only info I have on taking a Model S to the track: I believe the battery overheats fairly rapidly. I've read about Model S's at Laguna Seca only being able to do one timed lap. I read an article about "Lighting Lap" in the Model S. The article said something about it losing power due to overheating battery part way through the first timed lap. This was on a fairly long track though. There is a Lotus Evora using GM Volt batteries and a Tesla motor/gear reduction drive (transaxle) with a special differential being built developed at this time. I'm not sure how they are going to deal with the heat.

Efontana | May 30, 2017

A Model 3 might be fast dropping off the high bank into a straight.

Badbot | May 30, 2017

@Dwepilot

saleen has a limited slip diff and taller gears NOW

tesla reduction is 11.?? saleen reduction is 13.??

JeffreyR | May 30, 2017

My buddy Guy pulled out the interior of his R-Type Integra for his track days. He even installed a hand-built roll cage. Lots you can do on a M3-P75DL, but it won't be cheap. And it still may overheat at the track.

Model_D | May 30, 2017

Oops, I had a poorly written response. The Evora is in development, not the differential.

ReD eXiLe ms us | May 30, 2017

Dwepilot: I put more faith in the notion of a Tesla Generation III vehicle than do most Tesla Enthusiasts. This goes back to statements by Elon Musk. In particular he has said that in order to get something right, you typically have to go through three iterations before it becomes a worthwhile proposition as a product for the masses. The Tesla Roadster was Generation I. The Model S and Model X represent Generation II. The Model ☰ is the vanguard of Tesla Generation III vehicles.

I expect that even if not at the very outset of Model ☰ release, then certainly before the end of 2020, the entirety of the Electric Vehicle Naysayer platform will have been utterly demolished by Tesla vehicles. There will be no further goals left that have not been overturned or defeated. There will be no more heights or distances or roads or offroads that ICE vehicles will ever hope to reign supreme ever again. And all the attempts to move the goalposts before gearheads will finally admit that electric vehicles are fundamentally BETTER will have to be purged as they will have no territory left to claim in favor of ICE.

So lap times at Laguna Seca, Streets of Willow, Road America, Monte Carlo, Le Mans, Nürburgring, Suzuka, and various other tracks all over the world will see postings of electric vehicles taking over the charts. Specialty locations like Isle of Man, Pike's Peak Climb, and Bonneville Salt Flats will also see records matched, passed, and surpassed by electric vehicles. They won't have to all be Tesla products, but quite a few of them will be.

It will be so awesome when every single statement that begins with, "Yeah, but it can't do THIS..." can be proven entirely incorrect with a 0.32 second search on YouTube to present video evidence of every King of the Road ICE being soundly defeated at their own game. Even better when they are not stripped bare, empty tin can, race prepped one-offs, but run-what-ya-brung street legal electric vehicles that utterly demolish the very BEST that ICE has to offer.

It will be such a shame when Road & Track readership drops so very low because they refuse to publish anything about the electric vehicle revolution that will kill off all their major advertisers. It won't help them when 'cheap' gasoline is 'only' $12.00 per gallon in the U.S. either. Those poor guys.

tstolz | May 30, 2017

EVs seem to be doing rather well as far as performance on the 1/4 mile as well as on the track ... ie Nio on the ring. For regular people the only performance that you actually use is acceleration and the odd fast curve. If you drive on the street as if you are rallying you lose your license .. deservedly.

Model_D | May 30, 2017

Refuel 2017 will be at Laguna Seca on June 25 if you want to see for yourself.
@JefferyR Your friend Guy and I have something in common.

nadurse | May 31, 2017

@ Red e ,

I never said there werent trade offs, but if you are strictly looking at high performance EVs arent there yet, not because of a technical reason. Its because they are not ubiquitous enough yet for there to be an aftermarket support structure for that small segment of the population that are into racing and that sort of action. Technology is still highly proprietary. Technology is still expensive. Stock for stock yes Tesla has proven that its the king of showroom performance, and as you alluded to there is also a paradigm shift where you can still have pretty high performance but not have to sacrifice creature comforts.

But once you get past the stock trim or slightly modified, EVs havent gotten their yet for the reasons I stated above. I agree though it will just be a matter of time, and also money plus making the technology available. I mean look at Lucid, they built a legit EV supercar that can put down very serious times on the road courses. The aftermarket industry will need time to catchup is all.

JeffreyR | May 31, 2017

@nadurse
MT Head to Head had a comparison posted here recently between Audi R7 & Tesla MS-P100DL. The Tesla stopped in almost the same time as it launched. In other words its acceleration was traction limited. It will be amazing when best drag time is dictated by what tires you have. We are just about there w/ Ludicrous+ Mode.

ReD eXiLe ms us | May 31, 2017

nadurse: I am quite literally, very much sick and [FLOCKING] tired of the phrase 'not there yet' in regard to electric vehicles. Mostly because every time someone points out a place that electric vehicles have not reached, they refuse to acknowledge when they DO reach and surpass that point. But they happily point to another spot on the horizon, moving the goalposts, and claim electric vehicles have not been there yet.

There is the Nürburgring, for instance...

https://nurburgringlaptimes.com/lap-times-top-100/

The car at the top of that list, defeating all comers throughout all of time and space thus far, is fully electric. Then there will be the complaints that it costs over a million bucks, and it isn't a car for everyone and whatever. God. The Toyota Corolla sold over 1,300,000 units worldwide during 2016. Maybe that makes it a 'car for everyone' -- but it sure as heck doesn't complete the Nürburgring in less than seven minutes either. It isn't as if the next nine, ten, fifteen, or twenty cars on the list are inexpensive daily drivers. But their ICE explosiveness is still celebrated on that track, nevertheless.

I am also rather [PEEVED] that so many feel they have some 'right' to [FOUL] around with their electric cars any way they want to. There is not a whole lot different in the mechanicals of ICE vehicles that could not have been figured out by someone who was already aware of the operation of steam engines, a much older technology, during the 1920s, 1930s, and 1940s. So, industrious individuals were able to tinker with them to improve them for personal use, especially during Prohibition.

But it wasn't until the 1950s that cars from the 1920s and 1930s were being converted to hotrods by automotive enthusiasts. Basically, a couple of decades after the Model T had proven itself, then people started to modify old ones. The Tesla Model S came out five years ago. The Tesla Model ☰ will come out this year. I absolutely do not understand in the slightest this mad rush to get 'under the hood' and tinker with electric cars to such a degree so soon by the DIY "I've always worked on my own cars!" crowd. And worse, the "I KNOW I can do a BETTER job than those stuffy ENGINEERS!" crowd who demand complete technical journals and access to diagnostic equipment. People who 'just want a chance' to 'see what I can do'. It sure would be nice if people would simply accept what the Production vehicles from Tesla can do today -- which is beat the utter living tripe out of ICE contemporaries -- and then wait another twenty years or so to 'upgrade' them as they see fit.

There are some who have decided to take the hard route and went ahead and figured out some things on their own, and that is to be commended...

www.youtube com/user/marionrickard

But that doesn't change the fact that Tesla is still a young company and needs desperately to protect their intellectual property and market reputation. It is prudent to do that by maintaining strict control over their proprietary vehicle systems. They outline several dangers of aftermarket tinkering, tampering, and experimentation on their vehicles for the sake of modification and customization in each of their SEC filings, within a section titled 'RISK FACTORS'.

"Any unauthorized control or manipulation of our vehicles’ systems could result in loss of confidence in us and our vehicles and harm our business.

"Our vehicles contain complex information technology systems. For example, our vehicles are designed with built-in data connectivity to accept and install periodic remote updates from us to improve or update the functionality of our vehicles. We have designed, implemented and tested security measures intended to prevent unauthorized access to our information technology networks, our vehicles and their systems. However, hackers have reportedly attempted, and may attempt in the future, to gain unauthorized access to modify, alter and use such networks, vehicles and systems to gain control of, or to change, our vehicles’ functionality, user interface and performance characteristics, or to gain access to data stored in or generated by the vehicle. We encourage reporting of potential vulnerabilities in the security of our vehicles via our security vulnerability reporting policy, and we aim to remedy any reported and verified vulnerabilities. Accordingly, we have received reports of potential vulnerabilities in the past and have attempted to remedy them. However, there can be no assurance that vulnerabilities will not be identified in the future, or that our remediation efforts are or will be successful.

"Any unauthorized access to or control of our vehicles or their systems or any loss of data could result in legal claims or proceedings. In addition, regardless of their veracity, reports of unauthorized access to our vehicles, their systems or data, as well as other factors that may result in the perception that our vehicles, their systems or data are capable of being “hacked,” could negatively affect our brand and harm our business, prospects, financial condition and operating results. We have been the subject of such reports in the past."

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1318605/000156459016018886/tsla-...

A Honda Civic Type-R is no Duesenberg Model J -- but it will blow its doors off, while getting much better fuel economy. 85 years or so of hard work refining ICE technology has allowed that to happen. I have no doubt it won't take anywhere near that long for someone to offer a track day capable, reasonably affordable, and undeniably awesome fully electric car too. Oh, wait...

[ YouTube -- 87zVVIgGXfw ] and... [ YouTube -- 0lECAeZcgPg ]

jordanrichard | May 31, 2017

The reason a Tesla throttles back the available power is due to heat. If they could find a way to lessen or rapidly expel that heat, the only limit would be the amount power left in the battery. That is no different than an ICE being limited by the amount of gas. Speaking of which, it is in this area that an EV has an advantage. For every gallon of gas in a tank, it adds about 8 pounds. So a full tank of gas adds weight, whereas a full charge in an EV, adds nothing in way of weight. Most race cars only have enough gas in them to do a set number of laps anyways. So while an ICE needs to pit to get more gas, an EV wouldn't need to stop for a charge/battery swap out. Even if a fully charged 85kwh battery, in a racing situation only got 25% of it's normal range of 265 miles, that is still 66 miles which is more than enough for a typical road course race.

As they say, racing improves the breed. So racing EVs can only help road going EVs.

Ehninger1212 | May 31, 2017

Oh man, I just wanna do some personalizing. Not go race Le Mans.

ReD eXiLe ms us | May 31, 2017

Ehninger1212: Just pointing out that 'aftermarket support structure' will certainly be there for cosmetic applications. That is what West Coast Customs, STILLEN, Unplugged Performance, and your Friendly Neighborhood Automobile Upholsterer or vehicle customizer have been doing for ages, and will certainly manage for EVs. But people who want to get 'off-the-shelf bolt on' Performance parts for EVs should exercise a bit of patience and not expect to do that from the outset. Though you may not go racing, there are a lot of people that consider such tinkering as no more than 'personalizing' and make no distinction between the two.

Ehninger1212 | May 31, 2017

@Red
I see what you mean, I'm sure in 10-20 years (maybe sooner?) people will be "hot rodding" (hot terminaling?) (hot battery posting?) *shruggs shoulders* EV's. By then I'll probably be the old guy raising my cane high shouting " you gosh dang hooligans and you noiseless speed!!"

I'm only looking for my own unique look and feel out of my Tesla. I have other means of fulfilling my need to turn a wrench.

Bill Korea | May 31, 2017

BEVs will continue to improve, and they may eventually be practical for heavy track use. Currently, however, an overheated Lion produces oxygen, which is not good. It's certainly not a problem in everyday usage, but it is a known problem under sustained high loads. Pretending there is no problem now because it will be solved one day is supposedly a technique used by the struthio camelus, but even this is fantasy.

ReD eXiLe ms us | May 31, 2017

To me, 'sustained high loads' would be something like an endurance race, day and night, 24 hours straight at Le Mans. Or maybe 600 miles at DAYTONA. Two or three laps around a 14 mile track should be easily doable with Tesla Generation III technology, I think. C'mon... It's less than 45 miles! And should someone in a Model ☰ be able to run 12 or more consecutive laps around the Nürburgring circuit, with no ill effects, while besting BMW M4 GTS and Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio on at least ten of them...? That should end such concerns, once, and for all.

Ehninger1212 | May 31, 2017

McClaren just announced they are going to make there future all electric super car a better driving experience than the P1.. so it's definitely possible.

Ehninger1212 | May 31, 2017

Mclaren*

5ideoezy | June 1, 2017

Thanks guys interesting to see where my thread went. I’m a rural kiwi Honda fan oldie but reserved my Model 3 50 minutes before the first reveal last March.
I sold my S2000 to put the money towards the 3 but still own a 2002 DC5 Type R and 1994 Z Beat.
Sorry never been on the track but surrounded by empty twisty tight country roads most of you confirmed what I think the 3 will be a wolf in sheep’s clothing.
I love the X and S but there built for America and Europe motorways what we would call land yachts.
Anyway love ya all, but I’m sad as Honda has lost me as a customer with their pissing around with hydrogen full cells and ugly electric insight or dreamer or what ever its called.
Tesla Rules!

nadurse | June 1, 2017

Take er easy there Red, dont blow a head gasket, err umm... whats the EV equivalent to that.... dont thermal runaway your battery? Dont blow your AC motor bearings? Hmmm, that EV metaphor isnt there yet. I will have to work on it ;)

Iwantmy3 | June 1, 2017

How about "Don't burst your batteries!"

carlk | June 1, 2017

No matter what the 0-60 number the pedal response of the Tesla will be far superior than that of the Honda. Believe me pedal response if much more important than anything else which is where the Tesla grin came from even for people who have the slowest Tesla.

ReD eXiLe ms us | June 1, 2017

nadurse: As your Friendly Neighborhood Over-the-Top Optimistic Tesla Certified Apologist Fanboy, I am firmly dedicated to the notion that OVERKILL is the best policy to eliminate the threat of Worldwide ICE Domination.

Iwantmy3: I like that. Better though, might be, "Don't bust your terminals!"

carlk: Yup.