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The Bottom Line

The Bottom Line

So there's clearly some controversy over the price list that's been released. Some people aren't completely satisfied with the way the Performance version price was listed, some are dissatisfied with the price of the Signature version. Some on the other hand have no issues, and see this pricing as in line with competitive vehicles, or justified by the advanced engineering and design of the Model S.

So what's the bottom line for you? Will you keep your reservation, or cancel it?

After having a bit of time to cool down and think about this I believe I will keep my reservation. I love the car just as much as ever. I'm not exactly thrilled with the price structure, but I can live with it.

mscottring | December 23, 2011

Larry - I completely agree with you on that. Some people have already cancelled, and I don't understand that at all. I'm not happy with the company right now, but this is still a great car, nothing has changed that.

mvbf | December 24, 2011

I am actually pretty pleased by the options. My first post in this forum was a request for an air suspension that lowered the vehicle at high speeds while (essential for me) allowed one to raise that precious battery pack higher from harms way when the roads became challenging. Getting a reservation was a long shot hope that they would do this without breaking the bank for me and it has paid off. Another key option for me was the inclusion of the 2 rear boosters which they were clear all along would cost extra but be an option. The last hurdles for me will be the test drive, guessing at reliability of things like the air suspension, and maintenance options for one of the few reservation holders living in vermont on and surrounded by very curvy dirt roads. Oh yeah and convincing the wife we can own the only sports looking car in the area. I believe I also in the minority here who are not looking for a beautiful looking sports car. I am more interested in its utility and performance and wish it could do that in a less showy way. Oh well can't have everything.

Brian H | December 24, 2011

mvbf;
I predict you'll be considering switching to an X when they're revealed.

davidcjones | December 24, 2011

MVBF,

As a VT Roadster owner and someone with a Model S reserved, you can tell your wife you won't be the only one driving a sporty car on dirt roads!

DJ in Jericho

Mycroft | December 24, 2011

mvbf, make sure you have a clearbra installed immediately to protect the paint job from those thrown rocks!

David M. | December 24, 2011

@Larry,
Thanks for the link to Todd's post. That's good stuff. It's all accurate, except for maybe the 1/10th the cost of fuel. That's a little generous. For most people, 1/6th the cost of fuel is closer to reality, but that's still significant.

In 8 days, I will be telling folks that my Tesla sedan will be delivered "THIS YEAR".

Happy Holidays to all!!!!!!!!

Mycroft | December 24, 2011

It really depends on where you live. I've calculated it out and electricity here, near Tacoma, is about 10% of the cost of gas. So I would consider 10% a best-case scenario.

petero | December 24, 2011

I AM IN.

The “S” is as beautiful as a Jaguar or Aston Martin Rapide, Porsche fast, SUV spacious, and Rolls quiet. The price is competitive, the technology is... years ahead of everything else.

Signature holders, I think TM will soothe your pain on the price differential. Afterall, you will have the “S” first, and will be Tesla’s goodwill ambassadors. It would be hard to share the love if you feel taken advantage of.

Mycroft | December 24, 2011

@petero: "The “S” is as beautiful as a Jaguar or Aston Martin Rapide, Porsche fast, SUV spacious, and Rolls quiet. The price is competitive, the technology is... years ahead of everything else."

+1 petero! Agree 100%!

The Sport Model S compares very favorably to the Panamera 4S in both price and performance. But the Porsche only seats 4 and it's definitely not an EV. I don't know what the total storage is in the Porsche, but it's definitely nowhere close to the Model S and it doesn't have that glass roof!

ckessel | December 24, 2011

In Oregon, nighttime rates are really cheap. it'll cost me about 1/20th of gas costs per mile.

Mycroft | December 24, 2011

Cool! We have a new best-case scenario! :)

mvbf | December 24, 2011

Brian H from the general description we have been given thus far, the model x sounds like the ideal car for me. I am guessing it will take at least 2 years before they become available and probably closer to 3. At that time maybe I will switch or just add on to my Tesla family of cars...

DJ I used to live near Jericho, but have since moved a bit further south. I guess you avoid the dirt roads up there during mud season with your roadster? I have heard they handle snow and ice very well. I am yet to see a roadster in vermont so glad to hear there is at least one.

Thanks for the clearbra suggestion Mycroft.

petero | December 25, 2011

@glunky. I understand your initial reaction, but I recommend you stay the course for a while longer. I feel many of us may NOT fully understand the standard equipment on the ‘S,’ and the reality may be better than you think.

1. Navigation. You will have significant navigation on the 17” screen using your smart phone. It
may not be everything but it might be enough.

2. The standard charger (at no added cost) will work on 110 and 220 in your home. Do you really
need more? A 40kwh battery is not going to be used for long trips, especially when you factor
in charging to 80%.

3. Batteries and the charging infrastructure are in their infancy. Right now-today- there are
basically two EVs on the road (The Tesla Roadster and Nissan Leaf) in five years you will have
at least six more manufacturers involved. Once the market develops there will be more R&D,
economy of scale, and investment in infrastructure.

4. Performance and the need for speed. I think you have been reading too many threads from die
hard performance junkies who want to hang AMG and M heads from their mirrors. Is the .9
second difference that big a deal? The 40kwh ‘S’ will still outperform most everything else. For
the record, the faster you drive… the lower your range. In my opinion, it is not how fast you
get from point A to B… it is enjoying the journey. The ‘S’ is quick, quiet, spacious, and drop dead
gorgeous.

5. Pricing. Early adapters always pay a premium- look at the price of a Tesla Roadster. These guys
paved the way for all of us - We are getting off cheap compared to them. The most base ‘S’ will
be a lot more car than most others in the same price range. Realistically a base ‘S’ will be a $60K
out the door. This is more than many of us pay for an ‘average’ car, but then again, the ‘S’ is not
an average car. In 5+ years the price of batteries will decrease and the performance (range and
speed) will increase. Same is true of your computer.

cablechewer | December 26, 2011

For me the bottom line is that I am keeping my reservation, but I might drop from Signature to Production to save some money. When I drop the $7500 tax credit, convert to Canadian dollars and add HST the Signature comes out a little over $12k beyond what I was hoping for and $7k beyond what I expected. Previously Tesla has given me the impression that Canadian pricing will be US pricing pumped through a currency converter, but that the freight and PDI charges might be a little higher than the US. If they stick with this I have some thinking to do about whether to scale back and hold on to some of that money. If there is an additional premium it is certain that I will drop back to a regular production 480km car.

Dropping down also has another advantage - I really had my heart set on a blue car, but that isn't a Signature colour.

Mycroft | December 26, 2011

Wow cablechewer, that sounds like a no-brainier scenario for downgrading to general production. Save thousands of dollars plus get the color you want.

stephen.kamichik | December 26, 2011

PDI=preperation, delivery and inspection. Freight=delivery. I hope we Canadians are not expected to pay freight (delivery) twice!!!!!

David den Boer | December 27, 2011

Keeping my reservation, and having a daily battle with myself over whether or not to upgrade to Signature. I really love the one at Santana Row. Everything really depends on what TSLA and AAPL do in the next few months :-)

Sudre_ | December 27, 2011

I am in.

I like the pricing for the options I want and I think the cost to cut ahead in line (Sig) is cheap.... any cheaper and most ppl will be trying to get a Sig.

Mycroft | December 27, 2011

I don't think so Sudre. Yes, if it was $3,500 added on to the options we want, then it might be considered "cheap" to cut ahead in line.

But, with Signature, you not only have the additional $3,500 (or more), but you also have to buy every single option except the jump seats and pano roof. So even if you have no desire for the $3,500 21" wheels because the roads where you live are too rough, you don't get a credit for downgrading to 19" wheels.

Likewise, even if you never have the intention of charging faster than 50amps, you're stuck with a $1,500 second 10kw charger.

For myself, it's not so bad. Once I was sold on the Performance package, I probably would have added in all those options anyway. But I can certainly understand those who don't want them. For those folks, the Signature is extremely expensive!

gjunky | December 27, 2011

@petero

1. Navigation. You will have significant navigation on the 17” screen using your smart phone. It may not be everything but it might be enough.
I am sorry, but that is just a hookey solution. What happened to all the talk about a fully 3g/4g connected car and if it is, why make navigation an option. Google Navigation (on Android phones) does full spoken, turn-by-turn navigation for free. I expect the 17" screen to have this same functionality without needing a tether.

2. The standard charger (at no added cost) will work on 110 and 220 in your home. Do you really need more? A 40kwh battery is not going to be used for long trips, especially when you factor
in charging to 80%.
But it completely removes the option which seems like an arbitrary decision

3. Batteries and the charging infrastructure are in their infancy. Right now-today- there are basically two EVs on the road (The Tesla Roadster and Nissan Leaf) in five years you will have at least six more manufacturers involved. Once the market develops there will be more R&D, economy of scale, and investment in infrastructure.
This is even more of a reason to buy the 40Kwh battery now. Why pay the premium of the larger battery now unless you absolutely need it? You can most likely want to replace the existing battery with a cheaper and larger option in a number of years.

4. Performance and the need for speed. I think you have been reading too many threads from die hard performance junkies who want to hang AMG and M heads from their mirrors. Is the .9
second difference that big a deal? The 40kwh ‘S’ will still outperform most everything else. For the record, the faster you drive… the lower your range. In my opinion, it is not how fast you
get from point A to B… it is enjoying the journey. The ‘S’ is quick, quiet, spacious, and drop dead
gorgeous.
Yes, the .9 makes a difference and it is purely an opinion (mine and yours) if this is important to you or not. Getting from point A to point B faster is part of the enjoyment (for me)

5. Pricing. Early adapters always pay a premium- look at the price of a Tesla Roadster. These guys paved the way for all of us - We are getting off cheap compared to them. The most base ‘S’ will
be a lot more car than most others in the same price range. Realistically a base ‘S’ will be a $60K out the door. This is more than many of us pay for an ‘average’ car, but then again, the ‘S’ is not an average car. In 5+ years the price of batteries will decrease and the performance (range and speed) will increase. Same is true of your computer.
We are less of an early adopter as you pointed out. This also means that we can expect more from this car (it being the second model for Tesla). I just don't see why they had to "cripple" the 40Kwh version. BTW: I replace my computers considerably more often than my car. Computers to me are a commodity. This is not true for cars (at least, not for me)

Your tone seemed a bit condescending. I am just going to assume that was not your intend. I have been reading this forum and many other articles about electric cars for some time now. I had a leaf on order before I switched to the Model S. One of the main reasons was the additional range and faster charging options. This benefit might now be gone.

Robert.Boston | December 28, 2011

If Google would simply make its Navigation app (currently available on Android) available on the Web, it would almost completely address my navigation needs without Tesla's tech package. The only thing missing is managing extended outages of wireless coverage.

mwu | December 29, 2011

I'll definitely be keeping my reservation -- I knew before I made it that I would want options that might be higher than I could afford and that I would need to temper my expectations.

For me, a lot depends on what happens for me financially in the time between now and when Tesla begins building the car that will become mine. If things don't go well, I'll probably go with the 60kWh battery. If things do go well I'll either get the 85kWh or 85kWh+sport. I really want that sport option. I've driven a car that can do 0-60 in 5.9... it's fun, but I would like to own one that does better.

Of course all of these plans depend highly on how the wife plays her trump card.

I do feel that the tech package would be better off split into two or more smaller packages as there are a couple of items that I would like to purchase, but I am not willing to jump on the entire package as is. I guess I feel like I'd be paying for many things I would not appreciate in the existing package.

davidcjones | December 29, 2011

@ MVBF,

I got my Roadster in the summer after mud season, but I must drive on a dirt road to get to my home. I usually avoid most other dirt roads even outside of mud season. I will be back from a military deployment to Afghanistan in February, so I will see if the car (with snow tires) holds up to its reputation in the snow!

Also, there are 6 Roadsters in VT (one person apparently owns a 1.5 and 2.5)—but only one in Electric Blue! :)

Brian H | December 29, 2011

mwu;
Inquiring minds, etc.; what is this "trump card" of which you speak? Full details, please!

:-O

:D

Brian H | December 29, 2011

dcj;
With the traction control on, apparently you can nose onto an icey uphill road, and floor it! The tires will turn only as fast as the traction available permits, so you'll just go up the hill.

:)

JDun | December 29, 2011

I will definitely keep my reservation. I very excited about getting it, as my wife will atest. I would be happy with the 40 kWh version, but I am going with the 85 kWh models. I have been saving since 2009, so I have the cash and prices are roughly as expected. I don't think I know enough to decide on the options yet. I looked forward to further information, white papers and the opportunity to dig into the details.

David70 | December 29, 2011

Personally, I think anyone canceling their reservation at this point is just yielding to a "knee jerk" reaction. You can cancel anytime within the next few months (probably much longer). Whether or not I can really get what I want (85kW-h package, etc.) depends on what happens to TSLA stock between now and when I have to make my final decision. I was hoping I could get some of the other options included automatically with the battery pack upgrades, but "Oh well."

And as for getting the Leaf to charge in 30 min., I'd be surprised if the 40kW-h Tesla didn't let you charge as much mileage in the same time, not just a comparable mileage according the the full capacity. i.e., you won't get 70% of 160 miles in that time.

ncn | December 29, 2011

The Signature appears overpriced.

The Performance model pricing is described deceptively.

I wasn't considering the Performance model anyway, and I think it's actually fairly priced -- they should just change the stupid deceptive pricing description. That's a black mark on Tesla, but hey, it's no worse than what every other car dealer does. :-P

And the Standard model pricing is perfectly OK as far as I'm concerned.

So for me it's a question of whether to "drop back" from overpriced Signature to Standard. I'm waiting to get more detailed information from Tesla.

ncn | December 29, 2011

Mycroft wrote:

"But, with Signature, you not only have the additional $3,500 (or more), but you also have to buy every single option except the jump seats and pano roof. So even if you have no desire for the $3,500 21" wheels because the roads where you live are too rough, you don't get a credit for downgrading to 19" wheels."

Exactly. This is why the Signature is seriously overpriced. I'm hoping that Tesla will revise their pricing to give a credit for not getting the useless $3500 wheels, and I'm also hoping that they'll reveal something additional for the Signature which they haven't advertised yet.

Because at the moment, for many of us, the Signature is a >$6000 premium to get a car a few months earlier, with *fewer* color choices. Not very attractive.

ncn | December 29, 2011

"The $3,500 price is steep to upgrade to the 21" performance tires. "

Maybe if I get a Signature, I can sell you the 21" wheels (useless to me) for, say, $2500.... :-) See, this shouldn't even be possible....

The 21" wheels will burn tires twice as fast as the 19" wheels (I did some research on available tires and UTQG values), so you may not want the 21" wheels anyway, though.

Volker.Berlin | December 30, 2011

[...] to get a car a few months earlier, with *fewer* color choices. (ncn)

As much as I understand that as a Signature reservation holder you expect more choice than the P, not less, the limited number of available colors is probably inherent to the early delivery. The paint shop needs to be set up which takes some time, and Tesla has stated that that's at least part of the reason why they start with a limited color choice. It's an instance of "you can't have the cake and eat it, too".

gagliardilou | January 2, 2012

KEEPING MINE
and I upgraded my P to a Sig. I am definitely getting the car. I might go back to P but thought I better upgrade while there are sigs left. Easier to go down than up!

Also I'm thinking keep the car as long as planet earth exist! I will hand it down to my kids and they can just keep replacing the battery, and eventually the tires, brakes, seats, upholstery and carpet.

Thats when getting the SIG really pays off - 100 years from now when only a 1000 cars (less by then)say "signature".

Brian H | January 3, 2012

Igagliardi;
Sounds like you've been reading 'The Wonderful One-Hoss Shay'!

Have you heard of the wonderful one-hoss shay,
That was built in such a logical way
It ran a hundred years to a day,
And then of a sudden it — ah, but stay,
I’ll tell you what happened without delay,
Scaring the parson into fits,
Frightening people out of their wits, –
Have you ever heard of that, I say?

Robert.Boston | January 3, 2012

Ah, yes, a poem I learned first from Jim Tobin, my macro professor and the Nobel Laureate in economics. As Wikipedia succinctly explains it:

In economics, the term "one-hoss shay" is used, following the scenario in Holmes' poem, to describe a model of depreciation, in which a durable product delivers the same services throughout its lifetime before failing with zero scrap value. A chair is a common example of such a product.

Simplifies the math a great deal, at the risk of some loss of generality. :-)

GoTeslaChicago | January 3, 2012

Perhaps more like the tale of George Washington's axe:

"..as in the case of the owner of George Washington's axe which has three times had its handle replaced and twice had its head replaced!"

gagliardilou | January 4, 2012

I see your point but I still see some pretty nice model t's rolling down the road once in a while - they have to be close to 100 years old and still looking good and still going. That will be me and my Sig (or more likely my son and now his sig).

William13 | January 4, 2012

I cannot comment on others, but I clearly knew that the sig would have fewer options (all tricked out) and very little to differentiate except signage, higher quality or more leather and possibly color options. The prices differential was never known until recently.

For that reason I made my first reservation nearly 3 years ago for a p and almost one year ago for the sig. I only plan on one car. I love the red but not all the extras.

Only a test drive will tell me 1 performance, 2 sig red, or 3) green/blue. I hope to drive in March or April. Evan if I find a lot of aesthetic faults I will still get a p.

Tesla fanboy.

Mycroft | January 4, 2012

William, I'll make a bet that once you see the style of the Performance version and drive it, you won't want anything else! :)

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