I strongly hope there will be a "induction" option to be used at home or at my regular office
dupret JP, member 3303, signature 14
Jean PierreD, Tesla has not given any hints wrt inductive charging, but it certainly is a hot topic here in the forums. Here are two existing threads discussion induction and other charging options:http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/wireless-charginghttp://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/antitheft-charging-travels
Also, someone quoted some Tesla rep saying that inductive charging would not be viable until 5 or 10 years in the future. This statement is certainly debatable, and I do not know if it is representative for Tesla's attitude towards inductive charging in general.
Lab tech needs years and sometimes decades to mature to the point to be offered as commercial products. Reliability, price and convenience are not easy to obtain despite not being debated as much as the "discovery". If Tesla get the S right from the first shot with all new tech and innovations inside, it will be nothing short of extraordinary achievement.
I recently attended the Model S Reservation Holder Drive Event, what a disruptive technology to the automotive industry, but the wired charging system is so primitive. Elon Musk, if you are reading this, please seriously consider wireless charging option for the Model S, at least for home use. The public infrastructure will follow. WiTricity has developed wireless charging over distant and is currently working with Dephi to develop wirless charging for EVs.
"the wired charging system is so primitive". Really? I would call it "fit for purpose" -- if my car and my power source are both stationary and in a stable configuration, why would I be concerned about a hard-wired linkage? Why incur the losses inherent in induction charging?
Our namesake was fascinated by wireless transmission of electricty. Just sayin....
It's not on Tesla to build a charger. It's on the charger manufacturers to develope induction charging.
That said, if they drag their heels on it, Tesla make do it themsevles once the Model S is established.
As I mentioned once, the Fully Charged Youtube episode 20 showed the Rolls Royce version of inductive charging:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWX2Ztb02Mk
Looked fairly slick.
Rolls Royce cancelled their EV plans. Do you prefer a pie in the sky or an excellent car that you can actually buy ?
Do you prefer a pie in the sky
or an excellent car
that you can actually buy?
Nicu, you got rhythm and rhyme. :-)
Nicu has got his head stuck up his assumptions. I was referring to the inductive charger only. Said and implied nothing about "preferring" the car.
Rolly EV should use the wireless charger from HeloIPT
the good news is that this system is already made, also for after marked and is at pressent runing in england - the web page is not wery informative, but the claim to be ready to production.
They are seeking for a EV maker (Helo TESLA call them) witch will coorporate, and claim that the charger will not nessesaryly be more expencive than a wired charger (but we still need wired for faster charge times)
Plus this system is CANbus ready and thereby is cable to communicate with the EV's CPU (and asume more easy to fit into model S)
Elon and development staff should deffently make a call to the compagny - maybe offer this system as a extra factory mounted option - way to cool, will deffently hit the newspapers HEADLINES and will make ANY other car look like old foolis garbish.
Only thing am conserned about is the power rate - the faq mention 3Kw witch is low - 5 Kw would be a more suitble rate - however in daily use I think the 3 Kw could work in combination with a wired charger.
Most of the time the EV will only be half empty, so this would make it posible to top of to full in aprox 10 hours - IF the EV is in need of faster charging, one can always plug in the cable.
In fact the Tesla could warn the driver that it recoment using a cable when it can see charge time will exced normal driving behavier.....
go chek this out at youtube, there is some video showing a runing Citroen
Model S is rumored to use 2 x 10kW onboard chargers. Your 5 won't cut it.
When they can get inductive charging at close to the same speed as 240v plug-in, then I'll be interested.
As it is, the tech just isn't there. I can't even see paying $$ for a stupid mat to set my cell phone on (in a special case) to charge, when it takes 1 lousy second to plug in the little DC plug instead.
An interesting piece from Gigacom. An excerpt:
"Wireless giant Qualcomm has jumped into the electric vehicle market by acquiring the assets of a company called HaloIPT out of New Zealand that has developed wireless electric car charging tech. HaloIPT, a company that commercialized research from The University of Auckland, uses wireless induction for charging and has created a device or mat that an electric car drives over (or drives near), and which can wirelessly charge the car without it plugging in."
"The auto giants have already started to choose partners and acquire assets in the wireless electric car charing market. Toyota has both invested in and partnered with wireless charging company WiTricity. Nissan, which rolled out its electric LEAF last year, has been working on its own wireless charging technology. General Motors has invested in and partnered with wireless charging developer Powermat. Other startups have launched in recent months, like Evatran, which is a Virginia-based wireless charging technology developer working on EV wireless charging that has high efficiency."
I'm sure this has been discussed before; the problem, as I recall, is the fairly low kW that this can deliver.
Yes, but the interest shown here is an indicator. when I was in the business of 'working' the future, developments like this would send me to the labs to see what was going on there. Rule of thumb- on average, if it is in the lab today, it will be in the market in five years.
inductive charging can only transfer AC to the car. An on board charger unit is still required, as opposed to fast DC charging.
I can see inductive charging in parallel parking spots for residents that don't have a garage / driveway of their own.
Tesla clearly goes for the garage parking customers.
OTOH there is a valid concern about mobility tomorrow. car sharing might be the way to go for densely inhabited city areas.
Green Car Reports: "2014 Infiniti Electric Subcompact Car Will Have Wireless Charging"http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1070016_2014-infiniti-electric-subco...
If BEVs represented some very large fraction of the vehicles on the road, then a lot of these inductive charging solutions could make sense. But until then, we aren't going to see cities investing scarce infrastructure dollars to install charge points at intersections or in public street parking spaces (and reserving those spaces for induction-EV cars). Induction charging in the near future will be at best an option for dedicated, private parking spots as an alternative to plugging in.
And so, it simply boils down to the inconveniences of having a cord vs. an induction mat. I have to shovel my parking area, which serves dual-use (when I street-park the cars) as an extension of my entertaining space. Having induction pads will interfere with both, whereas having a covered 220v NEMA plug discretely hidden in a stone wall works just fine for me.
Of course, when/if EVs become the norm instead of the exception, the induction charging approach makes a lot of sense. But that world is a decade or more off.
Paying a 10% to 20% energy loss penalty for the mere convenience of not having to plug-in is a terrible waste of resources and rather ironic for those advocating sustainable energy sources.
However, what I find exciting about wireless charging is the potential for charging while on the move. This may never become a practical reality, but a break-through in this area, coupled with continued steady progress in battery technologies, could represent the final piece of the puzzle needed for the eventual successful adoption of EVs.
"Paying a 10% to 20% energy loss penalty for the mere convenience of not having to plug-in is a terrible waste of resources"
I agree Larry. That said, it's nice that this technology is around for the time when electrical energy (drawn from the sun) will be plentiful, cheap, and inexhaustible.
@Mycroft: You sound very sure of that this time will come? How do you propose this energy will be "drawn" from the sun? From the earths surface or from space and then channeled to earth?
I always thought it most likely that the first source of pleniful, cheap and inexhaustible energy that mankind would master would be nuclear fusion. The Soviets where maybe not that many years (decades?) away from break-throughs in the 80's but they never managed to contain the plasma at high enough density to achieve fusion of Helium.
I think 20% loss might be a bit on the high end.
I would love to have an inductive charger. Get home, get out, and never worry about it at all. No getting wet dirty hands, out in the drive in the dark rolling up and unrolling power cords twice a day.
The size of the available inductive chargers are also perfectly acceptable. I drive 70 miles per day three days per week. I guess I can probably get about 60 miles of charge back overnight being pluged in from 7 to 7 out of a standard wall outlet. My wife has level 2 at her office, and between these I'm not sure I really need much more than 120v/15amp.
Even with a bit of a loss from an inductive charger, I should have enough juice. Especialy when it's so painless to use. Every single moment it's in the drive it's on the charger.
Nothing so complicated Johan. Solar cell technology is getting more efficient AND cheaper every year. It's only a matter of time before it's cheaper than all other forms of energy.
You'll know it's close when banks and stores convert their roofs to solar energy and promote it in their marketing materials.
Earth have seasons and bad weather time to time. Earth-based solar energy will never be "plentiful, cheap, and inexhaustible" as long as you don't live on desert near equator or have cheap energy transportation method that can cross several countries.
In practice that energy source needs full backup with associated infrastructure and that is the reason why it can never get as cheap as burning fossil fuels. You need those power plants anyway.
I'd take a middle ground between Mycroft and Timo: a suite of renewable energy sources (wind, solar, wave, geothermal) plus storage plus demand-side-management will be the primary energy sources in 20 years; as a transition and limited back-up, natural gas. Going with a single renewable source (e.g. solar) lacks the diversification needed to meet demands on a series of cloudy/windless/flat-water days.
But, we venture off-topic; the source of the energy is a different topic than the "final foot" delivery of that energy to the car.
How much do the on-board induction coils weigh? Plug receptacles are pretty light; I'd hate to be adding 100 lbs.
Furthermore, isn't it likely that EVs will need both plugs and induction coils (for a while, at least)? There are a lot more places to plug in than to charge by induction.
I think the infrastructure might wait until we have superconductivity at under 120 degrees F (50 C). Of course, we'd still have the political problem of people who believe that (nearby?) radiant electromagnetics cause cancer.
Don't think I'll buy into first generation EV induction charging as plugging in every night doesn't concern me in the least.
It will be nice to be reminded every day that I'm no longer dependent on fossil fuels.
Plasma is too frisky for Tokamaks ever to work. And they run too cool, so need high-energy neutron-producing fuel. (Deuterium/tritium). Nasty stuff.
Try LPPhysics.com for a real world solution, coming soon.
LPPhysics has been mentioned frequently in these forums, and always by the same person. The last time this came up, another forum member posted a reply that I found rather enlightening:
Ahh, LPPhysics. Let's see what they can do for energy in the future and let's do a little due diligence before investing hope and money in this outfit.
LPPhysics = Lawrenceville Plasma Physics. Lawrenceville is a nice town just down the road from Princeton Univ, Princeton Physics department, and the Princeton Plasma Laboratory. How many of the people at any these institutions are moonlighting at LPP for a little extra cash and stock options? NONE!
Staff of LPP. The President, Eric Lerner has a BA in Physics from Columbia University (commendable, if not impressive.) Lerner did graduate work in Physics; code for "did not get a graduate degree."
The CFO, Aaron Blake, has a BA in Social Work and an MBA from Trident Univirsity International, a for profit on line school; very impressive. Oh, and Blake "proposed the idea of injecting angular momentum into the plasma filaments, which was written into the patent." The others are just as impressive :-)
From the Technical Section at the LPP site: Magnetic Field Effect
"The effects of magnetic fields on ion-electron collisions has been studied for some time. It was first pointed out in the 1970s by Oak Ridge researcher J. Rand McNally (does this guy also make maps?) in a non-quantum mechanical form, and more recently astronomers studying neutron stars, which have powerful magnetic fields, noted the quantum mechanical form of the effect, which is much larger. However, Lerner was the first to point out in 2003 that this quantum effect would have a large impact on the plasma focus, where such strong magnetic fields are possible. Experiments have already demonstrated 0.4 giga gauss fields, and DPFs with smaller electrodes and stronger initial magnetic fields can reach as high as 20 giga-gauss, Lerner calculates. This should be achievable in the next round of LPP's experiments. NOTE: (DPF)=The Dense Plasma Focus (DPF) "
So how much is a giga gauss magnetic field? Well, 10,000 gauss = 1 Tesla (magnetic field unit, not car). So, 1 giga gauss = 100,000 Tesla. How much is that? Here is a portion from a recent story in Physorg(dot)com:
"World record: The strongest magnetic fields created
June 28, 2011
On June 22, 2011, the Helmholtz-Zentrum Dresden-Rossendorf set a new world record for magnetic fields with 91.4 teslas. To reach this record, Sergei Zherlitsyn and his colleagues at the High Magnetic Field Laboratory Dresden (HLD) developed a coil weighing about 200 kilograms in which electric current create the giant magnetic field – for a period of a few milliseconds. The coil survived the experiment unscathed." Also interesting later in the article is: "In order to examine as closely as possible the electric charge in the materials of tomorrow, researchers need higher magnetic fields with, for example, 90 or 100 teslas. "At 100 teslas, though, the Lorentz force inside the copper would generate a pressure which equals 40,000 times the air pressure at sea level," calculates Joachim Wosnitza. These forces would tear copper apart like an explosion. "
So, if 100 Tesla is larger than the strongest magnetic field yet produced here on earth (not a Neutron Star) what are the chances of producing 10,000 times that field in the next five or ten years? Not too good! And, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near Lawrenceville or Middlesex NJ when they throw the switch.http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/cost-mile-drive-s-versus-compara...
Info on Nissan's wireless charging for the next Leaf:http://techcrunch.com/2011/12/05/new-nissan-leaf-models-will-feature-wir...
autobloggreen: "Daimler testing B-Class E-Cell plug-in hybrid with inductive charging"http://green.autoblog.com/2011/12/05/daimler-testing-b-class-e-cell-with...
Volker.Berlin, that one that wrote that was Zelaza that didn't know what he was talking about. I wrote an correction to him but I guess forum didn't accept it at the time. Lawrence Plasma Physics experiment already does produce fusion. It is way closer to hitting breakpoint energies than any tokamak with teeny weeny fraction of the budged or equipment cost. Magnetic field calculated by Eric Lerner is inside pinch, not inside the equipment producing it unlike HLD lab experiment. That's not your everyday electromagnet that is doing that.
Details of the latest equipment mods here:http://lawrencevilleplasmaphysics.com/index.php?option=com_lyftenbloggie...
Getting predictable good "shots" is a major gain.
wireless charging : SIEMENS, HEVO, Pluglesspower - Evatran :