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COLD WEATHER RANGE LOSS.

COLD WEATHER RANGE LOSS.

With the advent of winter in Chicago my 2015 Tesla 85D 4 months old / driven 5000 miles looses almost 40-50% range.

Jan 18th - The car was charged to 237 and was preheated to 72 deg F before leaving the garage. Drove 106.3 miles and had only 44miles left on the battery range indicator (yellow battery icon) - outside temperature 6deg F. NET LOSS OF RANGE 87 miles (the 44 miles would only have given me a another 20+ miles of range.in which the loss would have been 107 miles on one trip.
Dec 23rd - This loss of range was noticed earlier LOSING 70 miles on a full daily charge outside temp 42 deg F.

Tesla tech had advised me to preheat the car after Dec 23rd issue to heat the car which also triggers the heating of battery pack 30 m before leaving. Heating the battery pack apparently draws a lot of power to heat the battery - pumps - coolant heater etc - they also advised me to keep it plugged in at all times when not in use at home.

DAILY LOSS PARKED IN GARAGE IS 3 to 7 miles. Please let me know for those living in cold weather areas if you have noticed similar loss of range as I would like TESLA to remedy this.

Neko | January 18, 2016

Also in Chicago. I see exactly the same issues. Getting about half the normal range, especially in the really cold weather of the last few days (near 0 degrees). I thought it would improve if I weren't taking such short trips, but from your experience, it seems that is not the case.

I assume a lot of energy is going into keeping the battery warm. And I have almost no regen available for several miles of a trip, and that is going to give mileage a real hit as well.

Of course, it's disappointing, but I assume this is physics and am not going to make a fuss about it.

PhillyGal | January 18, 2016

Losing range in cold is a very well known and well documented condition native to batteries. It's nothing something Tesla can necessarily "remedy" though I'm sure they are experimenting to see if they can lessen the effects.

But there's also a lot more that could be contributing to your range loss including driving into headwinds, elevation changes and high speeds.

You will find more information linked to this comprehensive thread:

https://my.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/owners-manual-companion-now-auto...

Rocky_H | January 18, 2016

Something you might also try both ways is with and without Range Mode turned on. The battery heater is tied into that setting. With Range Mode turned on, the car will not use the battery heater as much, saving that quite significant energy drain, but regen will be limited for much longer, since the battery will be staying colder. It's a tradeoff you have available.

mjy680 | January 18, 2016

Yes. As noted, this is due to physics and not really negotiable!
I live in Chicago as well- my S behaves as does yours, losing 1/3 to 1/2 expected mileage during the past sev days. My W usage is approx 400/ mile. We need to move to a warmer city!

hcwhy | January 18, 2016

I use the 50% loss figure when figuring my real range in bitterly cold weather. I find it's pretty accurate. Range isn't a big issue for me as most of my trips aren't that far and I keep the car plugged in between trips. I drive at normal speeds and use heat as desired.

David Trushin | January 18, 2016

Today i drove from south bend to chicago in 0-5 degree temps and 13 mph headwind. Stated with 245 ended with 80, 136 miles total. I preheated the car so the regen line was at 60 for about 12 miles and then went away. Had heater at 69 with fan at 2, but the sun was bright so it was fine in the cabin. Had range mode off, but i always have it off. It's most efficient to drive with the battery at optimum operating temperature. I was pleased with the performance.

Red Sage ca us | January 18, 2016

The temporary decrease in range is not a 'loss'. A loss would be permanent, irreversible. You have a temporary decrease in available range when towing, driving uphill, or traveling during inclement weather conditions in ALL vehicles. It is simply more pronounced with electric vehicles, because currently, the energy reserves stored in battery packs are so small as compared to fuel tanks in ICE vehicles.

Johann @IS | January 19, 2016

ICE vehicles do this too, they just hide it better as they already waste so much energy making heat and noise.

graeme | January 19, 2016

I'm planning a trip to the French Alps. The last leg of the journey is 65 miles uphill in snow (and back to the supercharger). When I asked Tesla if I would be OK for the round trip in my P90D they said it would be fine and I was just suffering range anxiety.
Not so sure now, I may need a friendly native to donate a socket for a few hours !

Anthony J. Parisio | January 19, 2016

graeme,
Yes even if it is to keep it plugged in and warned before you return. This will give you the most carefree experience.

david | January 19, 2016

I lose 20% range in my Prius when the temperature goes below freezing.
This holds true for the past 120,000 miles in my current one.

I also prewarm my car and that accounts for a bunch of it.

It is understandable that the MS loses more range because it does not have the ICE providing "support" to the electric components.

A 40-50% loss of range will definitely change my thoughts on purchasing it. Our second home up in the Berkshires would bring it very close to its limit.

Does anybody see a solution here besides waiting for a dramatic increase in range due to battery pack size increases? I would have to wait assuming a 50% loss for a 400 mile range battery pack.

redacted | January 19, 2016

@david yes a 200 mile trip is certainly stretching it even in a 90D. My experience in long distance driving in cold weather is about a 33% range loss.

Suggestion 1: Hope for a supercharger on the way.

Suggestion 2: Acquire a third home somewhere in between #1 and #2.

Tropopause | January 19, 2016

This is why more range is needed for BEV's to be good year-round vehicles.

Tstolz | January 19, 2016

I find slowing down makes a huge difference! Preheating, watching heat, etc is great, but simply watching speed makes the bigger difference for me.

graeme | January 19, 2016

@Tsoltz I don't think speed will be the problem ascending the Alps - averaging 30mph on a good day - but the incline and the bends will use the power.

Rocky_H | January 19, 2016

@david, Keep in mind that the really bad losses of 40-50% are for a short trip (or multiple short trips), because it is having to do a lot of warming up. On longer trips, where you get to keep driving, the motor and inverter are continuing to generate heat from their normal operation, and the system stays warmer without doing as much extra heating. The reduction goes down some, and it's more like 20-30% for longer drives.

Gilanis | January 19, 2016

For all who responded Thankyou for your response. Was not sure if this was an isolated issue apparently not it seems standard for cold weather from you comments. I have also asked tech support to review the logs. Will revert if they come with anything not already mentioned. Thanks again.

borodinj | January 19, 2016

I'm in NJ and I'm heading into my 3rd winter with the car. Range loss in cold weather is well documented, as PhillyGal mentions. That said, after you have the car for a while, you just live with it.

Here's my advice. Take your starting range and multiply that by .7...that will give you a real world range number for the worst cold weather conditions. I've never lost more than 30% even in the worst conditions, so for me, the 70% adjustment works well. If you are really seeing worse range loss than that, then use a 60% adjustment.

When I have longer trips (over 160-170 miles round trip based on a daily charge), I just plan on supercharging either on my way out or on my way home, and that fills any gaps nicely.

Hope this helps.

brec | January 19, 2016

In addition to adjustment for temperature, one must adjust for the difference between rated range and actual range. The great majority of drivers will not achieve rated range even in the summer. There is no simple adjustment formula. Rated Range is an estimate based on some arcane EPA testing procedure that is congruent with actual driving in only a small minority of cases.

M'self, I have chosen to display percentage of battery charge remaining (State of Charge; SoC) rather than Rated Range on my instrument panel.

rjt65 | January 19, 2016

I too see it! Worse when I do not pre-heat. I drive 5 minutes in ~3 miles to parkways, another 17 miles and 1/4 mile to work off parkway, 5 days a week.

I now plug in every night and ensure I turn on climate to 70 degrees (from 19 this morning).

Loss of regen, heater when really cold taking lot more out of my baby.

I start out with 239 (aaackk my battery draining- down from 240 after charge--panic ;-)

When i forget to pre-heat properly, I will be in the anywhere from 185 to 190's (travelling at 65-75 most of the trip). Today I preheated well, and backed off the go pedal and currently have 205 left on the meter.

So a 20 mile trip, I paid a 14 mile tax.

I know i run more efficient using TACC than when I manual drive, I have lot areas to speed up than slow etc. which costs efficiency.

georgehawley.fl.us | January 19, 2016

I don't think anyone in this thread has mentioned that using the seat heaters with climate control off reduces energy use.

jfemd.va.us | January 19, 2016

What amazed me the other day is that after sitting out in 20-25 degrees (F) all day, my P85D had no regeneration (dashed line on the energy graph all the way up to the '0' level). I had never encountered that. And driving the Tesla felt like driving an ICE vehicle-no "engine" braking at all when I lifted my foot off the accelerator.Obviously my Wh/hr was much higher than usual. After a5 minutes of driving, I barely had any regeneration.

WHitchings | January 19, 2016

Wow, my exact same losses. I drove round trip to the airport several weeks ago, 40 degrees F, came home with probably 30% battery left, no worries. I made the exact same trip, same traffic, same time but with 12 degrees F average and had a 42% range loss.

Here in Colorado I have documented about a 30% loss of range, on average, for 20 - 30 degrees F driving temps. My 4-month old S 90D sounds the same as yours.

So this seems standard ops, per everyone else's observations.

Warmer weather will get the sap flowing. It's what I tell the missus, anyway...

alexftsl | September 9, 2017

Hi there,

I'm considering Tesla but cold weather is definitely part of life in winter for me and there isn't always a garage to park in (@ -10 or -20 F that'll affect range for sure). That said I figure seeing as I'm no stranger to block heaters I can just keep it plugged in when is really cold weather. Has anyone tracked how much it takes to keep it plugged when exposed to the elements on brutal days (nothing like running up family's electricity bill as gift visiting) ?

alexftsl | August 23, 2018

Sorry to bump this tread again, I'm hoping that almost year brings a bit more input about behavior in really cold weather. Any thoughts about -10 to -20 F (~ -20 - -30 ) ? Are we talking straight 50% loss ?

jeffdom1978 | August 23, 2018

Its August... Nobody is thinking about winter. Enjoy your nice warm battery and bountiful range until old man winter takes 33% away!

alexftsl | August 23, 2018

Thanks Jeff. Winter is coming :) 🇨🇦 and I'm about to take the plunge so just doing last minute checks.

murphyS90D | August 24, 2018

Cold weather reduces the efficiency of a Li-Ion battery. However the car has the ability to heat the battery so it isn't as bad as it could be.

It almost never goes below zero ° F here so I have no experience with anything below zero.

My 2013 Ford Fusion Energi, with a 7.6 kWh battery, loses half of its range in the winter time.

wlhnlh | August 24, 2018

I live in Illinois, so it does get cold here, but rarely down to -10 / -20. The winter weather does take a pretty big hit on the battery, but for 98% of the driving I do I never have an issue. A few things to remember; You will never have to stand outside in that cold weather at a gas station once a week waiting for your Tesla to fill-up. Also, on those occasions you do have to take a longer trip; I'm going to assume you have free SuperCharging and get to stop in and enjoy the company of other like-minded Tesla owners as you get some free range. Enjoy the new ride....

Should_I | August 24, 2018

Drive length matters, if short drives the battery is always heating and HVAC always working hard and eating juice, on longer drives this stabilizes and has less effect.

wrather | August 24, 2018

I live in Ontario Canada and have been struggling with range on my 2017 MS 75D in the winter. I do mostly Supercharging because I am on the highway about 80% of the time. After 64,000 km (40,000 mi) in 13 months, in -30°C (-22°F) I lose about 30%-35% and can only count on 90%charge real-life ranges reduced to 250 km (155 mi). As I do weekly trips of 1000km (625 mi) to get to clients' offices, I wish I had gone with the 100D initially! The only way to get longer distances was to slow down to 100kph (63mph) and go 2 seconds behind a tractor-trailer or highway bus to reduce my drag; it gained me back about 25%-30% in range.
For those still thinking about a new Tesla, IMHO, if you do long-distance trips often, buy the largest battery available.

Innkeep | August 25, 2018

And remember. A cold soaked battery takes a very long time to charge. In the winter your first priority is to find a place to charge while the battery is still warm. In addition in extreme cold regeneration is severely limited until the battery warms up.

alexftsl | August 27, 2018

Thanks for the thorough feedback everyone. That's quite the loss in cnd winter weather but then again batteries at -30 C... Has anyone kept track of effect if not plugged overnight in that kind of cold ? If we're talking 30-35% while driving I'm guessing overnight could be just as much sitting still - i.e daily supercharging if staying over at friend if they don't have a charger...

On a related note, I stumbled on this the other day https://abetterrouteplanner.com/ ; it seems like it takes a lot more into consideration than (reference consumption, weather, road conditions etc.). Interestingly, heavy snow/rain with wind easily halves efficiency. It'll be interesting to see if things are actually that harsh.

alexftsl | August 27, 2018

I meant "more than the stock trip planner on https://www.tesla.com/trips .. . " I'm assuming the in car planner takes more into account ?

MNGreene | August 27, 2018

@alexftsl - I have seen those types of temperatures and pretty much agree with everything that has been said. As @Innkeep said, plugging in is your priority in that kind of cold. If your friend has a 120v (regular) plug, use it and you will keep your batter warm and even gain a few miles overnight.

p.c.mcavoy | August 28, 2018

@alexftsl - www.evtripplanner.com also allows you to program in environmental conditions, such as cold, to get a sense for the real world implications on range loss. Is a matter of personal preference on whether individual seems to prefer abetterroutplanner vs evtripplanner.

I've taken a couple longer trips in 0 - 10F type of conditions. The energy consumption prediction in the on-board NAV will start off optimistic, but I find after about 30 miles it's tuned in pretty well and you can use it as a reasonable gauge during the trip. I find doing longer drives with multiple supercharging stops in a single day that the accuracy is better on the second and subsequent leg, presumably due to the battery largely already being up to temp. Also, for overnight stays, do not discount the benefit of a L2 or even a 110-120V outlet. I spent a night in Rochester NY at near 0F temps, hotel had an L2 charger. Not only did it nicely get me from 25-90% overnight, but left the next morning with the battery at a nicely prewarmed state from charging.

alexftsl | August 28, 2018

Thank you , it’s good to know the onboard computer will get it mostly right. I did notice the temp adjustment and wind made a big difference in estimate (over 450 wh/km in low temp with wind - not uncommon in Jan) , I’m guessing the estimate ers on the side of caution but it’s good to have an idea ahead of time as it can affect the route choice on long trips. Thanks everyone for taking the time to respond, I’ll be reporting back with data :)

vtreglia86 | September 19, 2018

@alexftsl I am getting a Model 3 this weekend, wanted to see how your doing and if you are encountering any problems with charging or ownership?

jordanrichard | September 19, 2018

Cold winter temps is one thing that Tesla's nav does not take into account, and I surely wish it would. Here is some advice, especially during the winter, with regard to listening to the nav system. If the nav system says you are good to go to continue your trip, with an estimated arrival SOC of 15%, don't unplug. Keep charging until it shows at least 20%. There was one particular time when it was a balmy 11 degs outside, the nav system said we were GTG to continue with an estimated 17% SOC upon arrival. I decided to keep charging until it hit 30% upon arrival. Once under way, at about the half way point, my estimate SOC went from 30% to 15%. Had I unplugged when they system wanted me to, just at the halfway point my estimated SOC would have been 2%.

That is far too close for comfort to risk when it's 10 pm and 11 degs out.

alexftsl | October 2, 2018

@vtreglia86, sorry for the late reply, I actually don’t get forum post notifications for some reason. You got your m3 before me so I wouldn’t have been able to help yet (got mine last Friday). I’ll be sure to report back cold temp feedback on this thread. So far , with evenings dipping to 18c or so I get approx 5 mile loss - I’m guessing winter will be quite a bit more severe, lets see

Rocky_H | October 2, 2018

@alexftsl, Quote: " sorry for the late reply, I actually don’t get forum post notifications for some reason."

That's because this forum doesn't have them. You just have to participate every day or two and keep up!

Jesperj | October 2, 2018

It also doesn't account for ski racks. If you have those on, expect that your efficiency will drop another 5-10%.

Craig1965 | October 5, 2018

Forget about the 30%ish range loss in cold weather which is VERY dissapointing and not told beforehand. So the thought of getting the equivalent of 100 mpg would be a good cost savings, but in winter you really get 50 mpg equivalent. I've come to accept that. But here is where Tesla actually makes it MORE to drive than an ICE vehicle. I am 52 with a perfect driving record. My insurance went from $1000 to $2000/year and my license plate renewal/registration went from $220 to $565/year (more than double). My previous car was almost the same price and size as my Tesla, so the extra $1350/year in insurance/license costs me more than the gas would since I drive low miles/year. Unless the insurance companies and state licensce registration adapt and charge the same amount as a normal car, the future doesn't look as bright. I bought a Tesla to SAVE money, not pay more for necessities of driving a car.

Bighorn | October 5, 2018

I think we all tried to tell you the car wasn't a good fit, Craig, but you didn't listen. I just added another Tesla and pay less than $50 a month for insurance. Not sure why the world is against you--some might call it karma.

akikiki | October 5, 2018

Craig even though you drive little a year (according to you), consider you will live longer. The Tesla is a safer car than anything you have driven before. So think of the overall increase in cost protection for your life. I could stretch my logic and say, which would you rather have? Saved that money so they could put it with you in your grave or drive the best and safest car built to date.

Craig1965 | October 6, 2018

I agree it is a safe and fun car. And since it is the safest car, insurance should be less, not more. Though I know it costs more to repair it, mainly because Tesla doesn't give repair shops the parts quickly or let non-OEM make parts (which would be smart). My point was Tesla's website and employees only told you how much money you were going to save over gasoline. They never said you WON'T save anything when you are buying one in a cold state, nor do they say insurance and registration is DOUBLE any similiar priced car. Actually Bighorn now I would think a performance model 3 would be a better fit for me do to smaller size, longer range than my 75D, cheaper, and probably less to license and insure, but I know I could never get over the no dash in front of your steering wheel. I think that is a huge mistake, having to look to the right at a tablet instead of eyes in front of the road. Guess it won't matter in 10 years when they really drive themselves (not this fake auto-pilot that goes thru red lights, lol), but it wouldn't have cost them much to have a dash like in the Model S. Guess I would also miss the air suspension in the winter though. No car is perfect, and yes Tesla is more perfect in southern states since the battery doesn't have to waste a ton of electricity heating the cabin. My hope is once enough of these are on the roads the insurance companies will get a clue and lower rates, they seem to think just because the car accelerates faster than most ICE cars that everyone is a racer and is gonna crash.

Bluesky | December 2, 2018

The advise above from jordanrichard is spot on. Experienced this myself in a recent cold trip from VA to MI.

" Here is some advice, especially during the winter, with regard to listening to the nav system. If the nav system says you are good to go to continue your trip, with an estimated arrival SOC of 15%, don't unplug. Keep charging until it shows at least 20%. There was one particular time when it was a balmy 11 degs outside, the nav system said we were GTG to continue with an estimated 17% SOC upon arrival. I decided to keep charging until it hit 30% upon arrival. Once under way, at about the half way point, my estimate SOC went from 30% to 15%. Had I unplugged when they system wanted me to, just at the halfway point my estimated SOC would have been 2%."

milsimhawaii | December 3, 2018

I'm currently experiencing the battery losses, not only in drain but battery capacity. Back in Oct I started noticing a significant battery drain overnight, I concluded it's somewhere in the realm of 1.3-1.5 miles lost per hour. So I started leaving the charger plugged in EVERY night just to prevent battery drain, not sure if this affects battery health.

This sparked another issue regarding battery capacity. I noticed I was no longer receiving 250 miles @ 80% charge, but it was falling dramatically every night until it reached an all time low of 228 miles @ 80% charge. Mobile tech tried to tell me it's not an accurate representation and that I should change it to percentile rather than displaying miles.

My biggest concern was that I was going to be leaving for a 2,000 mile road trip back home in the coming weeks, and I was worried if I wasn't receiving full battery capacity, if I would be able to make it every supercharger location. It didn't take long to realize this road trip home was going to be very different compared to the road trip leaving home some month earlier. Not only did I arrive at superchargers with 10-12 miles of charge multiple times, according to the navigation system, I needed to charge to 100% (now only 287 miles) in order to reach my next stop. This is especially frustrating because all the superchargers on my trip home charge by the minute, and as the battery approaches 100% the charging rate is only 5-6 kW, doing the math, that's about 1 kWh in 10-12 mins, therefore it costs $1-$1.20 per kWh, which means supercharging just became much more expensive than gas.

With 10-12 miles of charge left, and charging to 287 miles (now my vehicle's 100% charge), the car's charging data showed I charged ~65kWh, now I'm able to confirm the battery's capacity for driving is no longer over 70 kWh. Not only was I forced to charge to 100% which takes much longer, and costs more, very early on after charging would I receive warnings to stay below 75 or 70 mph to reach my destination. It is worth mentioning, I had a full vehicle, every bit of storage was utilized, which made the vehicle much heavier, I believe this is the reason my Model 3's average was approximately 300 Wh/mile, while having the heat on, the average climbed even higher. Once I reached a desired temp, I decided to shut off the air completely to conserve as much energy as possible. I would also put the vehicle in neutral approaching declinations, regenerative braking would not be as beneficial here as trying to gain as much speed as possible taking advantage of the vehicle's weight to travel as far as possible using zero energy.

After 40+ hours I was finally able to arrive home safely, that said, the experience was very stressful, constantly monitoring range and distance to go, as well as energy consumption. I'm thankful I can calculate the numbers I need to achieve in my head, but I don't expect the typical driver to make these calculations on-the-fly and adjust their driving accordingly.

All said, I think this needs to be put on the public stage and addressed, as I no longer feel the other Model 3 battery sizes (Standard & Mid-range) are viable options for road trips with all factors/variables taken into account.

Bighorn | December 3, 2018

@milsimhawaii

I understand your financial concerns about charging to 100% when paying by the minute, which is unfortunately based on state legislation rather than Tesla's preferred plan. People have been criss crossing the nation with smaller batteries than yours for several years now and your description of needing a range charge to reach the next supercharger is not a common occurrence. Unless, and this is my guess, you were skipping superchargers, either voluntarily or inadvertently. This is the Model S board--are you indeed referring to a Model 3, in your case? What was your route that you found yourself needing range charges? Also, I'd recommend against coasting in neutral as the same effect can be achieved with a neutral pedal position, plus it's illegal in many states.

amckane | December 3, 2018

I think Craig1965 needs to shop around for a better insurance deal.

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