Data monitoring

Data monitoring

With today's negative news all over the media on MS, data monitoring issue has surfaced and begin to get another criticism wave. It is like what Apple experienced with its iPhone. New technology vs. privacy. What do our MS owners react on this issue?

July10Models | February 11, 2013

Don't slender tesla and they won't call you out. This is 2013 we are way past 1984. Seriously I just shared some very personal financial information with a notary public and a bank employee. How is that different from the information tesla retrieve from the car for maintenance.

TonyF | February 11, 2013

Are they currently logging everyone's info and just not 'viewing' it? Or are they not logging each car unless we sign a release allowing them to log? I kind of hope they are currently logging my info so if I have some trouble with my car, I can ask them to look at the log and try to figure it out.

kublai | February 11, 2013

Per Elon's tweet-

Tesla data logging is only turned on with explicit written permission from customers, but after Top Gear BS, we always keep it on for media.

bfranks273 | February 11, 2013

Its sort of like the lady I knew that was sure the NSA was watching her. Is there really any value? worth the bandwidth, management, and data storage? Seriously? At best they want to count miles and look for errors. However I will note that you could cut it off in the roadster, but not the MS. So maybe you are right after all. Quick, Look out your front window, see that guy to the left?

Brian H | February 11, 2013

Elon specified they do not access logs without specific written permission -- except for the media, after the Top Gear sham empty battery show.

Brian H | February 11, 2013

Elon Musk ‏@elonmusk
"Tesla data logging is only turned on with explicit written permission from customers, but after Top Gear BS, we always keep it on for media."

noel.smyth | February 11, 2013

Um, Tesla is not the only car manufacturer that knows where its cars are.. A friend just purchased a lexus, they have same capability.

Superliner | February 11, 2013

Not to worry "nickniketown@gm" Most of the same information can be collected from your ICE as well (GM OnStar CAN collect real time data as to what the vehicle is doing) Since the implementation of EEC III and EEC IV nearly two decades ago. The onboard powertrain control modules have had data logging capability and that information can be seen when connected to a scan tool

Each time your mechanic connects a scan tool he can see exactly what the car or truck was doing when a fault code / crash detection / etc. occurs. The modern PCM is akin to a black box in an airliner and the information it contains has been available to "anyone" with a scan tool for decades and in GM's case over the air via OnStar.

This is NOT new. Relax.

negarholger | February 11, 2013

The owner decides if he wants the tracking capability to be turned on or not. As I understand this was a Tesla owned car given for a test drive. I don' t think there is any argument here.

Ron5 | February 11, 2013

We were all given a document to sign with the purchase paperwork. It gave permission for Tesla to monitor us (for the car to send Tesla information). I signed it, though nobody explicitly told me I had to. Did anyone not sign it?

DJung | February 11, 2013

All modern cars have this capability so that when you bring the vehicle in for maintenance, they can see what is wrong with your car. And that phone in your pocket is also able to track your every move. So what if Tesla and Verizon knows I was at Starbucks at 8:40 today? If "Big Brother" wanted to know if you were at Starbucks, they could just contact your cell phone provider to see where you were. As long as your not involved in illegal activity, you should be fine.

Superliner | February 11, 2013

I'll Gladly sign, on delivery. If it will help Tesla improve the product

Think you have privacy? Google yourself, you might be amazed at the information that is out there.

bradslee | February 11, 2013

Isn't it true that when we decide to buy MS, one of the amazing features of MS that attracts us is its easy of use that likes an iPhone? If we can accept our 4G phone with all sorts of tracking functions, why are we bothered by MS with the similar function? Even when you ride a horse, someone will see the trail.

olanmills | February 11, 2013

There's so much data, that if we volunteer to share it, I want Tesla to provide interesting ways to play with it. You could make some cool apps both for indivulized data and aggregate data from all Tesla drivers.

For example, and this is just off the top of my head, what if there was a "heat" map that showed Wh/mi? "Cool" areas would indicate routes that are more efficient to drive, "hot" areas would probably coincide with higher speed limit roads and large hills, but also, I'm sure you would also see trends that you didn't expect. It would be interesting.

If there was an API, I'm sure people would come up with all kinds of things.

I think there should be two APIs, one where you could access detailed data logs for your own car, authenticated and authorized with your Tesla account, and another API where you could receive anonymized data (like the heat map idea), but you wouldn't be able to get anything that's potentially individualized, like the specific route a single car drove, even if there was no name or ID attached to the route.

TikiMan | February 11, 2013

LOL! No ONE in American as any real privacy, unless you live off the grid (i.e. no bank account, no cell phone, no credit cards, no passport, no DLR, no home phone, no electrical power, no gas, no water, no sewage, no trash pickup, no mortage, no loans, no guns, no car, no airflight, no train travle, no bus travle, etc).

Tesla monitering your MS is the LEAST of your worries IF you are worried about people finding you, or knowing what you are doing.

I'm sure Chris Dorner isn't having an easy life right now.

gammd | February 11, 2013

Drove this weekend from Raleigh to Columbia. Had to charge each way at a public (J1772) station. Slow at 19 mi/hr and 30 A. Inconvenient but not a real problem.

The 'SuperCharger' network should solve most of these problems.

We all have data tracked all the time: iPhone, Debit Cards, ATM withdrawals - not sure why the car is really different. Furthermore if Tesla has all of the various vehicles consumption data then improvements in software management and 'SuperCharger' network station placement will be facilitated.

Had I had access to one of the Tesla network stations the trip would have been identical to an ICE trip.

Robert22 | February 12, 2013

As mentioned above, we all gave Tesla free reign to acquire personal data on everything we do with the car
(and more )when we signed the MVPA. I am curious however to know what the difference is between data logging and acquiring every blessed piece of data generated (which we all gave Tesla written permission to collect).

I did ask Tesla before taking delivery of the car if they planned on handing over "black box" data to insurance companies which frequently use this information to establish culpability. I was told they would not hand this information over without a subpoena. On the brighter side, The ability of the car to be tracked via GPS might allow for a "LoJack"- type insurance discount.

Brian H | February 12, 2013

That's "rein". No 'g'! Horses, not kings.

It's comforting to know that the data is available to the driver, too. I was once nailed by a driver jumping out of line at a feeder intersection I was cautiously crossing. I had right of way, etc., etc., but the (gov't) insurance office called me "70% responsible". >:( I'd've loved to be able to provide an exact re-creation of the accident!

bobinfla | February 16, 2013

In the week I've had my car, I had noticed that when charging it appeared to stop and start numerous times. Not a big issue, since it was always fully charged by morning. I spoke to the Service Center today, he checked the logs, touched base with Engineering and a couple hours later I had a firmware update for my second charger that seems to have completely fixed the issue. One phone call on a Saturday and my car was fixed while sitting in my driveway. So I say do all the logging you want, Tesla, and thanks for being able to use that data to help me out.

Funny, after the NYT article and follow-on, I mentioned to my wife that I had no qualms whatsoever with Tesla tracking all my driving, but wouldn't trust my government or insurance company with this kind of data.

Brian H | February 16, 2013

Would you trust her? Will she have the App? Hmmmm.... ;) :D

Alex K | February 16, 2013

@bobinfla | FEBRUARY 16, 2013; I mentioned to my wife that I had no qualms whatsoever with Tesla tracking all my driving, but wouldn't trust my government or insurance company with this kind of data.

Yes, but I'm sure Tesla would hand over the information with a court order.

Robert22 | February 16, 2013

@Brian H-

Both are accepted. I'm an early adopter....

Oaktowner | February 16, 2013

Brian H: get those periods inside those quotation marks, please!

Brian H | February 17, 2013

No, nowhere does it say or imply "accepted". Simply that misuse is increasing somewhat. Given the free-form education most juveniles under about age 60 got, it's not surprising.

dtesla | February 17, 2013

So what is covered by "data logging" and what is not?

I e-mailed Tesla about a problem with my MS (the door just opened on it's own... fortunately I was not moving at the time). They called me back and said they pulled the from my car and they saw the problem, they had ordered the part and wanted to schedule an appointment for repair. At no time did I give them permission to access my car remotely.

When my car was being serviced the repair tech gave me a nice tour of the Service Center (I liked the SC). When we got to some batters from the beta cars I ask some questions and was told if my battery faults Tesla will be notified and I would then be called. Once again, without written permission.

For the record I have no problem with any actions by Tesla relative to my repair. And it made the repair process much easier.

I would assume making my data logs public to my insurance company or others is only a court order away.

cloroxbb | February 17, 2013

Im guessing that you asking them to troubleshoot your car gives them permission to access data logs?

jjaeger | February 17, 2013

dtesla - have a detailed read through your signed MVPA to address the couple of questions you raised.

July10Models | February 17, 2013

The car phones home when it is in trouble. You already gave Tesla written permission to repair your car.

Amped | February 17, 2013

The more info an engineer has, the easier it is to find root cause.
Long term historical data is even better.

@brian h, you should really give up on calling out spelling.
This is the second string I've noticed you do it on & it's getting old.

Captain_Zap | February 17, 2013

I was pretty upset when I read this on page 24 of the "Model S Owner Safety Information booklet":

"Tesla does not disclose the data recorded in your vehicle to any third party except when:

• An agreement or consent from the vehicle’s owner (or the leasing company for a leased vehicle) is obtained.

• Officially requested by the police or other authorities.

• Used as a defense for Tesla in a lawsuit.

• Ordered by a court of law.

• Used for research purposes without disclosing details of the vehicle owner or identification information.

• Disclosed to a Tesla affiliated company, including their successors or assigns, or our information systems and data management providers.

In addition, Tesla does not disclose the data recorded to an owner unless it pertains to a non-warranty repair service and in this case, will disclose the data that is related to the repair."

I asked for information about their data collection and whether I could opt out when I ordered the car. They said that they didn't have a privacy policy for anything other than the website at that time. If I had the information when I was making my decision it probably would have been a deal breaker for me until they had a acceptable privacy policy.

Pungoteague_Dave | February 17, 2013

Brian H,

It should be "received," not "got." Are you really going to keep being the punctuation and grammar police here? There are a lot of limited-English speakers here and we need them to buy cars too!

Robert22 | February 17, 2013

Speaking of buying cars, when are you going to get off the bleachers and join us on the field Brian :)

Robert22 | February 17, 2013

Oops, that was an interrogative.

defmonk | February 17, 2013

+1 @Pungoteague_Dave: Thank you for your post. Brian H as grammar police has become a bit tiresome.

Brian H | February 17, 2013

"name calling"? Would that be "juveniles under 60"? LOL Sorry the reverse agist joke offended you. But not very. IMO "spel it like it sounds" education is a travesty. Unfortunately it, and "whole word readin' and ritin', was invented by my generation when it took over education-ism. An enduring blot.

prytog | February 17, 2013

@Brian H
So many posts here are incoherent. We need you!
I appreciate your effort.
Both my mom and wife are English grammarians and both have enriched my life with their corrections of my 1960-1970's education-ism. My father with English as his 3rd language, relishes the nuance, and loves being corrected.
Keep informing us. The correct usage of English enlightens us all.
I am a mostly boring actuary and generally don't write well on first cut, but with the help from friends my 2nd drafts are always better.

Brian H | February 17, 2013

English has a built-in problem: it is not truly phonetic. German, Italian, French, Spanish, Russian, Swedish (?), etc. have no "homonyms" to deal with. Distinguishing them with spelling is part of the way we deal with the problem (usually with historical reasons). The huge size of its vocabulary (after stealing from so many sources) is part of the cause and benefit, so to speak.

But it requires more attention and skill to use properly.

Many formal grammar rules are poor, and artificial, as a result of trying to codify them along Latin lines. Bad match in many areas. E.g., the "don't split infinitives" rule is a silly attempt to match Latin, whose infinitives are one word, hence un-splittable!

In the end, actual usage rules, but it's worth fighting to avoid loss of distinctions and meanings. Ability to use language well is the strongest single correlate with high intelligence, though of course not the only one, and not with all forms of intelligence.

Vawlkus | February 22, 2013

Brian's been doing his grammer/spelling patrol for years, and most of us know about it and appreciate it.

What we DON'T appreciate is the lack of an edit button to fix things that we do catch :D

jat | February 22, 2013

@Captain_Zap - so what exactly is the problem you have with it? That basically *is* the privacy policy, as it is telling you exactly what they are allowed to do with the data.

That information was also in my MVPA, so I don't know how it could come as a surprise before you converted your reservation into an order.

Captain_Zap | July 28, 2013

Someone was wanting to address this subject again.
There were more threads as well from earlier dates.

GeirT | July 29, 2013

@ Captain_Zap

Agree. This is important and something I am very uncomfortable with. It is an issue for us all to consider seriously. We all have something to hide (!) and we shall all decide ourselves when we want to disclose whatever and whenever. TM has no right to our private information, being it movement or at what speed. Consider videos and voice... it is in there and should not need a wizard to know how to activate that... Edward Snowden released very disturbing documents about surveillance that goes beyond anybody's wildest imagination. So, nothing to do with unfounded paranoia, just a legitimate demand for privacy - wherever TM sell their cars. Let's hold that to them and not let it go. Ever!

Brian H | July 29, 2013

Big Nanny is watching you.

stevenmaifert | July 29, 2013

@GeirT - Paragraphs 8 & 9 of the Telematics Service Agreement, which is part of the final purchase document. Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't watching me... 8(x) & 9(i).

8. Information Collected. We collect information about
you and your Tesla EV several different ways: (a) from
what you provide to us when you accept this
Agreement or buy or lease your Tesla EV; (b) from
your use of the Services; (c) from calls or emails
between us; (d) from our wireless services provider;
and (e) from your Tesla EV itself. The information we
may obtain from your Tesla EV includes, without
limitation, (x) information about the vehicle and its
operation, including without limitation, vehicle
identification number, location information, speed and
distance information, battery use management
information, battery charging history, battery
deterioration information, electrical system functions,
software version information, and other data to assist in
identifying and analyzing the performance of your
Tesla EV; (y) information about your use of the
Services; and (z) data about accidents involving your
Tesla EV (for example, the deployment of air bags).
Because your Services are provided through wireless
and satellite networks, we cannot promise or guarantee
that your communications will not be intercepted by
others. You agree Tesla will not be liable for any
damages for any loss of privacy occurring in
communication over such networks. If you do not notify
us of a sale or transfer of your Tesla EV, we may
continue to send reports or other information about
your Tesla EV or the account to the e-mail or mailing
address currently on file with us. In such case, we are
not responsible for any privacy related damages you
may suffer.
9. Use of Information about You or your Tesla EV.
You agree that we can, subject to applicable laws, use
any of this information we collect, and provide such
information to applicable Service Providers and third
parties to: (a) provide the Services to you; (b)
communicate with you about your account or your
vehicle; (c) check or maintain your Tesla EV; (d)
analyze your Tesla EV’s performance, and combine
with and compare to data gathered from other Tesla
EVs; (e) help you to maintain your Tesla EV; (f)
research, evaluate and improve the Services and
vehicle technology; (g) enforce this Agreement with
you or others; (h) prevent fraud or misuse of the
Services; (i) comply with the law and any and all legal
requirements, including valid court orders and requests
from police or other authorities; (j) protect the rights,
property, or safety of Tesla, you or others; or (k)
perform market research for Tesla’s own purposes.
This list is not meant to be exhaustive.

Captain_Zap | July 29, 2013

I would still hope that Tesla would not release personal or private information without a warrant or just cause. That is the American way, or at least that is what we were lead to believe.

Brian H | July 30, 2013

NSA requests are very polite.
Whisper quiet.

stevenmaifert | July 30, 2013

@Captain_Zap - 9(i) says as much. My only real concern here is that if you were ever involved in litigation where your driving habits were in question, the car can testify via the data Tesla collects.

cgiGuy | July 30, 2013

"...location information..." That explains why the service center guy said, "I saw a Tesla across the street, so I pulled up your car location to see if it was you." when I stopped to get coffee prior to an appointment. He went on to say they (service center folks) can only "track" cars within 1/2 mile of the service center.

Doesn't bother me a bit.. wish there was a "we notice you're in a ditch on the side of the road" alert for them.

KWTESLA | July 30, 2013

Ok What can Tesla do with the mysterious Data ?

They can tell where more chargers are needed . They can know more about how our cars are being used which will allow them to make changes in the car. An example was the battery warranty change that came about because of Data that showed that the way most of us charge and use our cars the batteries will last the 8 years of the warranty . This caused Elon to say the batteries were covered no matter how we charge or use them. Just don't damage them physically and You are covered.

mdemetri | July 30, 2013

Given the fact that the NSA is 'legally' collecting all our phone and email records, but only looking at them for cause, I can easily see the NSA demanding 'car location' information from Tesla on all cars. If approved by the FISA court, this would be a 'legal' request and therefore Tesla would have no choice but to hand over the info.

As terrorists are unlikely to drive a Tesla, I would be appalled if this actually occurred. But, it is within the realm of possibilities and IMO, a big problem.

avanti | July 30, 2013

This is the perfect time for the NSA to make said request--before any significant constituency that might raise a fuss has time to come into being. And, why wouldn't the FISA "court" approve it? The logic of the argument is no different from that of the data collection activities that have already become routine. And, anyway, a very large number of police cars now routinely do OCR on every license plate they pass and store the data permanently.

If you happen to think that this isn't such a good idea, I humbly suggest that you think more broadly than whether these good folks know where you take your Model S.