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GM says that they will be able to sell EVs at a cheaper price.

GM says that they will be able to sell EVs at a cheaper price.

www.yahoo.com/finance/news/gm-planning-electric-cars-wont-211435164.html

With Tesla lowering the cost of batteries, this makes sense.

Earl and Nagin ... | July 8, 2019

@andy.connor.e,
Way more expensive human resources required.
Also, don't forget that automobiles have been mostly recycled since the 1950s so the only real resources required to build a new car is the energy to reprocess the materials.
That GM, Ford, etc, don't post a 'manufactured with 95% post-consumer products' label on their cars, like printer paper and paper towels sometimes do, highlights how out of touch they are.

SamO | July 8, 2019

@reed,

Glad you wrote that because I saw a Youtube video a few months ago and there is an off-the-shelf EV conversion kit for the old Porsche and VWs.

$8,000 - $14,000 for the motor and charge controller, regen braking, etc.

$10,000-14,000 for a 22-24kWh battery.

Plus installation, if you aren't comfortable with high voltage.

https://www.evwest.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=40

In summary, NOT COST EFFECTIVE to convert a Camry or Corolla, but perfect for a hobby or collector's car that is never driven more than 25 miles away from home.

andy.connor.e | July 8, 2019

keep using "not cost effective" like that was the argument

SamO | July 8, 2019

It was the argument. It is a stupid idea, in every way possible.

1. Building an EV from scratch is more efficient than a gas conversion.
2. Retrofitting a gas car is stupid, from first principles.
3. Nobody will want a Camry or Corolla converted.
4. It is more expensiive.
5. Just stop punching ourselves in the face and build EVs
6. There are no batteries for this stupid conversion "project" for millions of gas cars.
7. There are not even enough Tesla batteries for all the cars their customers demand.

Did I miss some seemingly genius idea for why converting gas cars to electric is so smart?

andy.connor.e | July 8, 2019

Dang, when you put stupid in almost every bullet point it seems so stupid doesnt it?

Earl and Nagin ... | July 8, 2019

@andy,
As I stated before: if it isn't economical, it isn't practical, hence, it isn't feasible, whether it is environmentally better or not.

andy.connor.e | July 8, 2019

You should just re-read the conversation. Its been over

blue adept | July 8, 2019

@SamO

@andy.connor.e, I, and a couple others have exhaustively attempted to explain the logic behind the fact that it would be cheaper to convert and ICE to a BEV, but you're just being incredibly obtuse in your inability to acknowledge the reality of the matter.

Just think about it, once you remove the mining, refining, processing, forming, machining of the various materials and assembly processes involved in producing a vehicle you exponentially decrease the overall expense and environmental impact involved in its' creation since it is already made and ready to go, requiring it to only be retrofitted with BEV tech to achieve its' environmentally friendly freedom of obsolete petroleum fuels status.

If you lack the intellectual cognitive ability to comprehend that making use of an already assembled car is far less expensive than producing a whole other one from scrap, let alone removing all of the BS involved in acquiring, refining and processing petroleum resources, then you're not competent enough to engage in this level of conversation and should excuse yourself from it to save yourself further embarrassment.

blue adept | July 8, 2019

I honestly wish I could find a picture depiction of the processes described in my post above for a visual representation of what I and others are trying to convey since words, apparently, aren't enough...

Sheesh!

Earl and Nagin ... | July 8, 2019

@blue,
He means well. He's just a bit too myopic to grasp the big picture.
Perhaps he can look at the history of:
- Left Coast Conversions
- Phoenix Motorcars
- Via Motors
To observer real world examples of how his idea, while well intentioned, hasn't and won't work.

andy.connor.e | July 8, 2019

Why read the conversation thats already been discussed, or perhaps engage in it, when you can just say its stupid

blue adept | July 8, 2019

Because I'm attempting to exhibit a 'nicer' demeanor since I understand that I can, at times, be somewhat blunt/brusque and indelicate.

blue adept | July 8, 2019

@Earl and Nagin ...

>>> "That GM, Ford, etc, don't post a 'manufactured with 95% post-consumer products' label on their cars, like printer paper and paper towels sometimes do, highlights how out of touch they are."

They are sooo 'out of touch' that not only are they shuttering GM is spending $24 Million to increase their full-size truck production to gear up fr producing a $100,000 truck:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2019/06/27/chevy-working-new-silver...

They've also closed production plants to double down on, of all things, development of renewable fuels and vehicle autonomy, displacing hundreds of workers:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/05/the-weekly/gm-lordstown-plant.html

While there might be some merit to GM's claim that they'll be able to 'sell EV's at a cheaper price' (afterall, if you wait long enough the cost of everything, eventually, does go down), the actions they're taking indicates that they have no intention whatsoever to get off the obsolete petroleum bandwagon and adapt to modern day automotive technology.

I hope every one of those former Lordstown employees sue GM!

SamO | July 8, 2019

The logic of it being cheaper hasn't been born out in things called numbers. Substantiate this claim and compare to $35,000 Model 3.

How much does it cost to retrofit each car with these batteries and drivetrains?

SamO | July 8, 2019

Or is it faster for Tesla to build Gigafactories and a robust Tesla Network of autonomous vehicles?

blue adept | July 8, 2019

Big picture, @SamO, big picture...

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You're (rather conveniently I might add) overlooking the costs involved, both economical and environmental, in manufacturing the vehicle in the first place, not to mention the costs associated with extracting and refining the petroleum used to power the engine, and lets not disregard the lingering health ramifications of emitting tons of CO2 over the course of the car's life...

When you factor ALL of those costs into your assessment it's pretty easy to see how converting an ICE to BEV would be the most cost effective option.

Yes, Tesla's are the very definition of awesomeness, albeit the epitome of automotive technological and engineering excellence, but they do nonetheless share some of the costs of production with their cousins (ICE's) which, when factored into the equation, would make converting to BEV from ICE a more economically viable option for some, all things considered.

Stop being so damn contentious and just THINK about it, sheesh!

NKYTA | July 8, 2019

I think you guys are cross talking, and probably want the same thing. Tesla’s Mission Statement to succeed.

On the manufacturing side it is TM. No doubt.

For clubbers with older Classic cars, why the hell not, if YOU have the $$.

Can we agree on that?

SamO | July 9, 2019

Yes talking past each other. I don’t see the big picture.

I claim it is not cost effective while others keep repeating bullshit with zero numbers offered.

And I’m the one missing the point.

andy.connor.e | July 9, 2019

Again @SamO is sitting on the argument of $$$$. Which was not the discussion. He doesnt bother reading the conversation we had, he jumps in when its over.

SamO | July 9, 2019

@andy,

I've read every post on this and every page of this thread. I've posted, repeatedly, on every page.

I said you don't have any math to back up this: "You're confusing my point. My point was that it would be more carbon neutral to retrofit vehicles. I never said everyone *should*. "

I asked for proof for this "thesis" and you've never provided any, Just get more confused and claim I don't understand what you are talking about.

You are wrong. This is a stupid idea. It won't work and is not cost OR carbon effective.

It is impractical. There are no batteries or motors for this imaginary retrofitted fleet.

The cars you retrofit are inefficient ie. have a high coefficient of drag (cd) and thus would use more electricity per net mile moved than a ground-up electric car. The cars would not travel long distances and thus would be appropriate as second cars, requiring people to own more than one car.

Rinse and repeat.

neither you nor blue have provide any data to support your theory that this would be good. Just blind assertions.

Then you get mad when I ask for any evidence.

Sounds like how our current president operates.

Sad.

andy.connor.e | July 9, 2019

"The cars would not travel long distances and thus would be appropriate as second cars, requiring people to own more than one car."

People own EVs that go less than 150 miles today. So that is not evidence.

And i have to say that you managed to dismiss everything with no math or anything but words from yourself which is the basis of your dismissal, which is itself exactly what you argue against, and managed to turn it political.

As @blue adapt mentioned earlier, you are incredibly obtuse and seem to lack cognitive intellectual thinking. Comparing a discussion about EVs to how our president operates is a good example of that.

SamO | July 9, 2019

What math have i dismissed?

What 150 mile retrofit car have you documented?

You keep claiming I missed it all upthread.

What politics?

SamO | July 9, 2019

Why don't you make it easy for a person with a "lack of cognitive intellectual thinking" and lay it out super-easy:

1. What is your thesis? What is the problem you are solving?

2. What evidence do you have for the proposition?

This should be super simple to a big brain like you.

andy.connor.e | July 9, 2019

@SamO

Are you kidding me right now? You're dismissing everything im saying because i have no math, yet you are not disproving it with math. Why should i take anything you're saying seriously, you have not provided anything more substantial than whats already been discussed.

"What 150 mile retrofit car have you documented?"
You said "The cars would not travel long distances and thus would be appropriate as second cars, requiring people to own more than one car."
People already own EVs today that have less than 150 miles range. Since you want to just talk, ill talk too. People on these forums alone have indicated that they do not drive outside of the city they live in so a low range EV would be fine for their only car.

Comparing a discussion about EVs to how our president operates is pretty much as low as a statement as i need to stop engaging in conversation with you. Keep being pretentious and talk down to everyone else with contempt. Im sure that it will get you very far in life, and earn you lots of deserved respect.

SamO | July 9, 2019

Like I said, no numbers and a bunch of crybaby hand waving.

Thanks for playing.

blue adept | July 9, 2019

@NKYTA

There has been some 'cross talk', but an emerging sentiment that has woven its way throughout the discussion, primarily championed by the ever quarrelsome and somewhat narrow minded @SamO, has been a perceived impracticality to converting ICE's to BEV's as opposed to just buying a purpose built EV, e.g., one of Tesla Motor's models.

Oh, and that's Classic AND Vintage cars.

@andy.connor.e

Costs might not have necessarily been the primary motivator for our side of the discussion inasmuch as our focus was more so on circumventing the ongoing environmental impacts of ICE dependence, though you did eventually swing around to the logistics of the economics and convenience involved in conversions side of the conversation.

Then @reed_lewis chimed in supporting @SamO's positioning by arguing the necessity of convenience and touched on the impacts associated with disposal of the discarded ICE components but that's easily mitigated, if not circumvented altogether, by recycling the engine and associated components and re-purposing them as BEV componentry...

Recycle, Renew, Re-purpose, Reuse.

p.s. You might be interested to learn that there are actually several people out there who've made a "business" out of providing ICE to BEV conversion services, but I'll get back to that later.

@finman100 then jumped into the conversation providing some much needed support for @SamO's position about the lack of information on the sort of expenses involved in ICE to BEV conversions (birds of a feather and all that, lol).

@Earl and Nagin ..., while agreeing with myself and @andy.connor.e overall, injected a caveat of academia into the conversation by introducing the underpinning issue of the unavoidable necessity of 'sustainability' for alternatives to petroleum-based commuting to ensure its viability and provided a bit of reinforcement for @SamO's point of the economic factor.

Wow! Someone, who'll go unnamed for civility's sake (@SamO), is being a major asshat in this thread.

Thing is I can't really decide if you're being argumentative just for the sake of arguing/attention, or if you're only prodding the discussion to get the answers you'll need to conduct your own ICE to BEV conversion because you're either, 1) Too ignorant to figure out how to use the Interwebz to find the information you want, or 2) Simply too lazy to conduct your own research.

Ever and whatever, here is your "scintilla"...

You use a $35K Model 3 as your cost comparison basis.

A little research revealed that the cost of doing an electric car conversion using a DC-based system (as opposed to a more expensive AC-based one), on your own, is between $8,000 and $11,000 (not including the donor car).

However, if you hire a company to do the conversion for you you can expect to spend in the range of $12,000 and $18,000, including all the necessary parts and labor, for a DC-based system as opposed to an AC-based system which is more expensive due to increased materials and component's costs.

All the same I think that even you, @SamO, can realize that $8K to even $18K is cheaper than a #35K Model 3.

A fairly comprehensive discussion and review of the processes involved can be found here:

https://www.hybridcars.com/top-7-issues-electric-car-conversion-25839/

You might also be interested to learn that there are already several ICE to BEV vehicle conversion companies, you know, for those of us who aren't tech savvy or lack the wherewithal to engage in such an undertaking:

https://www.thoughtco.com/electric-vehicle-ev-conversion-companies-85249

People have converted all manner of some 4,557 vehicles from ICE to BEV thus far, and those are only the ones people have posted to the Web:

http://www.evalbum.com/

The point, of course, is that it is not something that cannot be done, albeit something that hasn't been done many times over by a great many people, many with meager means/resources and relatively inexpensively at that.

As for all of the conversational discord, ultimately we are all arguing for the same goal, just presenting differing sides of the same topic based on our perception of what aspect of it is relevant to us, kinda like that old parable about the blind men all feeling something different from one another even though they were all feeling the same thing, just different parts of an elephant.

I can only hope that we all, at the very least, now understand that ICE to BEV conversion is both feasible and practical and that the expense is marginal compared to he cost of a new Model 3 for the more frugally minded among us.

SamO | July 10, 2019

This is false. All numbers presented are in direct contradiction to those posted earlier.

There is an $8,00 EV conversion kit. For lead acid.

Fail

Ross1 | July 11, 2019

$8.00
It is the wine, huh?

Earl and Nagin ... | July 11, 2019

@Blue,
Unfortunately, you're looking at over $10K, just for a minimal set of batteries alone. One with reasonable thermal management and ~200 miles of range in low quantities will set you back a lot more (not including the HVAC). If you want air conditioning, room left in your trunk, and other conveniences, the cost goes even higher. IIRC, Phoenix Motorcars and ViaMotors were both looking at around $25K extra for their engineered (ie cheaper than a one-off) EV conversions of existing ICE pickup trucks.

andy.connor.e | July 11, 2019

The only company that is able to produce Lithium batteries at a reasonable price is Tesla. Wait until the other companies have their EV lines, those numbers may become much different. Notice throughout the conversation no one ever mentioned WHEN this "retrofitting" would take place. This is a convoluted cycle of assumptions.

Earl and Nagin ... | July 11, 2019

@andy.connor.e,
There are good 18650 batteries made for the laptop computer and similar devices at reasonable cost in high quantities. This is why Tesla selected this form factor for the Roadster initially. They aren't as good as Tesla's current ones but they would probably meet your need. Someone would have to package them into packs with cooling tubes and flame retardant gel, just as Tesla did.
This is why I suggested one could get batteries for over $10K. It would all depend on the quantity purchased from the manufacturer. Hobby quantities of only a few hundred at a time are still very expensive.
It might be possible to make a business of making somewhat good, somewhat affordable, EV batteries using Tesla's method as a critical first step toward enabling more affordable conversions. Tesla cars will still be cheaper but this may create a path to your vision of converting today's ICE vehicles to EV.
@Blue,
I forgot to thank you for the good, rational attempt to summarize the discussions.

blue adept | July 11, 2019

@SamO

Ha-ha-ha!

I knew that would make you blow a gasket, but the numbers are what they are (which is why I posted links to articles that contained links to actual ICE-to-BEV conversion companies and their contact information) and if you're still confused about it, perhaps you should try reading the information a little slower to allow it a bit more time to sink in...?

blue adept | July 11, 2019

@Earl and Nagin ... & @andy.connor.e

Perhaps, IF I intended to use lithium batteries, but I do not.

Instead, in my desire to see/demonstrate just how cost effective an ICE-to-BEV conversion is I intend to make use of easily obtainable, ready at hand, off the shelf Absorbed Glass Mat (AGM) batteries to determine how effective the options that are available to the average person truly are.

Granted, I suppose that I could just requisition a bunch of Tesla's battery packs and powertrains, but I'd rather they put their mechanicals into their vehicle models by way of increasing the number of actual Tesla's on the road.

With that in mind I'm sure that you're now able to see how easy it would be to meet the price point mentioned in the article, and since one of the many hats that I wear is that of Engineer and will be doing the work myself, I'm confident that I can achieve the desired result.

blue adept | July 11, 2019

@Earl and Nagin ...

Thanks, I think, I have my moments.

NKYTA | July 11, 2019

I still think y’all are talking past each other.

I agree with SamO the it isn’t workable for a large fleet.

Totally doable for one-off fun.

Why is this so hard?

Earl and Nagin ... | July 11, 2019

@blue,
AGM are lead-acid (PbA) batteries. Because of their lead content, they tend to be extremely heavy. Max range will be limited to around 50 miles unless extreme design measures are taken as they were in the Gen2 PbA EV1 by GM that could get 100 miles at an easy 55 mph.
Unfortunately, with 50 miles or less (most are 30 or so), the cycle stress is huge and the batteries seldom last for more than a few years if used for regular commuting.
Have fun, however, but don't say you weren't warned.

SamO | July 11, 2019

Which I already acknowledge upthresd regarding EV West. But dumb and dumber think you retrofit a minivan with a few lead acid batteries.

Smh.

Works great with an 1800 lb VW bug. Not so well with a 4,000 lb late model sedan. Not cost effective for retrofitting a fleet.

What do you do when you run out of charge

blue adept | July 12, 2019

@NKYTA

Oh hell no! I'm not interested in building any 'fleets' or establishing a conversion business or anything of the sort.

As I explained earlier, I just want to convert some vintage and classic cars I've got so that I can continue driving them with a clear conscious to be able to enjoy the nostalgia of it while tooling around the 'hood, so 'range' isn't really an issue.

Granted, I'll be doing a bit of experimentation to determine what works best/is best suited for my particular application, but I consider that as merely part of the creative process.

FWIW I plan on taking some cues from this one guy who goes by the moniker "Reverend Gadget" and hails from Left Coast Electric...I saw a '67 Camaro he did for Red Hot Chili Peppers frontman, Anthony Kiedis, and know of a Spitfire he did for a friend, both of which turned out well (the latter I can personally attest to).

Granted, they'll never be a replacement for the Tesla's, but they'll be a bit of fun that'll enable me to achieve a workable dichotomy between the past and present in a modern day platform.

blue adept | July 12, 2019

@Earl and Nagin ...

Please see my above comments about the incentive provided by 'Reverend Gadget' from around the way and the Batteries I plan on using typically weigh in at 38lbs. a piece (though I'll also been considering forklift batteries with one slab in the front and one in the back for equal weight distribution which I've no idea of their weight) so it'll be, as you've intuited, an issue of weight v realized work product.

What the hell, I like a good project every now and then. ;-)

blue adept | July 12, 2019

@SamO

>>> "What do you do when you run out of charge"

Why, you plug in of course, duh!

SamO | July 12, 2019

Bullshit Blue. You lie.

You said we could wholesale convert ICE to EVs.

Trying to lie your way out of your stupid arguments is really supremely sad.

You failed. You were wrong. I accept your defeat as ungraciously as possible.

Your “hobby” is a farce.

blue adept | July 12, 2019

Seriously, are you on drugs?

I have never, throughout this entire conversation, ever said I "could wholesale convert ICE to EV's" and I challenge you to point to the post in this thread where I have!

Granted, I might have insinuated that the ICE auto manufacturers might be able to because they've the facilities and infrastructure to do so and would only require a minor retrofit, but it's not something that the average guy, or girl, on the street could do because of the sheer volume of ICE vehicles on the road today, at least not at any appreciable volume.

Now stop being so damn belligerent and quarrelsome because, at this point, you're only making yourself look like a complete idiot, @SamO.

NKYTA | July 12, 2019

Be nice. You both are on the correct side.

wailor | July 12, 2019

GM could give them out for free. I wouldn’t care for them. None of their cars have brought me peace why should I trust them with an EV.

SamO | July 14, 2019

“I might have insinuated...”

Lol.

Apology not accepted.

blue adept | July 15, 2019

@NKYTA

We might be on the same metaphorical 'team', but @SamO is being incredibly oblivious, shortsighted and lacking in optimism and appreciation for the inherent ingenuity of the Human species, so much so in fact I'd almost prefer it if they were on the other team.

blue adept | July 15, 2019

@wailor

We are of the same mind regarding GM...

They've been such a disappointment both in the way they slighted the EV movement with that whole EV1 debacle and the way they've trashed other marques, not to mention that whole disastrous tragedy over their first deliberate re-machining of their ignition switches to cause them to switch off during operation should the driver hit a bump in the road and then conspiring to cover it up for over 10 years by blaming it on their customers misuse of their key rings (putting too many keys on them) or the placement of their knees even by insisting that drivers were nudging the ignitions with their knees during operation of their vehicles (premeditated murder & criminal homicide anyone?!).

So, yeah, I also wouldn't drive or ride in a GM-manufactured EV, though it would still be nice if they were to convert to EV from ICE's as I sure they can find someone to buy/drive them.

blue adept | July 15, 2019

@SamO

I wasn't apologizing (there's no point to it given the fact that I'm not wrong), only trying to rationalize how you managed to jump to insisting that @andy.connor.e or I were saying that we could "mass-produce" ICE to EV conversions given the obvious fact that an individual, obviously, wouldn't have the necessary resources to perform such an undertaking, as any rationally minded person would know.

For an established 120+ year automaker to indulge such an undertaking on the other hand, well, that would another thing altogether.

SamO | July 15, 2019

Ha ha ha sure GM could.

Also I have a bridge in Brooklyn I’d like to sell you.

GM is constitutionally incapable of making any thing but in coming improvements and are likely to be bankrupt again within 24 months.

Where is GM going to get these magical batteries?

Lol

blue adept | July 15, 2019

@SamO

I think you're making the mistake of conflating my comments between myself and @wailor with our exchange with one another by erroneously confusing the two with one another.

Believe it or not, but I'm actually capable of carrying on more than one conversation at the same time including articulately juggling sub-thematics of seemingly similar topics, afterall, GM isn't the only automaker out there.

As for where they could get batteries, they could always outsource them to some third party manufacturer.

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