Forums

Insane electrical consumption...

Insane electrical consumption...

I'm bored and antsy waiting for my invitation, like most of the rest of you, so here's a weird bit of news for you.

What modern invention uses 32 terawatt-hours (32,000,000,000 kwh ) of electricity every year (about the same as the country of Denmark)? No, I'm not talking about EVs, 32 twh is about the amount of electricity that 7 million Teslas would use in a year.

No, I'm talking about BitCoin. Yes, that plaything, that racket, that insanely valued virtual currency created by an anonymous programmer (some suggested that Elon Musk created it). It's estimated that people mining bitcoin and validating transactions use about 32 twh of electricity every year. That's freaking insane.
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/12/bitcoins-insane-energy-consu...

Tesla power consumption: 300 wh/mile * 15000 miles / year = 4500 kwh / year.
Bitcoin power consumption (in units of Teslas): 32*10^12 wh/year / 4500000 wh/year = 7,111,111 Teslas.

The next time someone spouts off about how EVs are going to destroy the electric grid, pop this little number back at them.

TeslaTap.com | December 6, 2017

Wow! Utterly crazy - never would have guessed Bitcoin mining consumes so much!

I've heard estimates that there would be little effect to the grid even if 50% of the cars were EVs. Since almost all EV charging is done at midnight to 6am where there is a tremendous amount of excess capacity.

carlk | December 6, 2017

Wow, That not good. Hope it crashes soon.

andy.connor.e | December 6, 2017

If we'd just start using microprocessors instead of the technology used 20 years ago, we'd probably be using next to nothing.

Imagine if your home computer used as much energy as your phone. Literally nothing.

georgehawley.fl.us | December 6, 2017

Classical telephone landline consumes 1-2 watts - total

phil | December 6, 2017

"If we'd just start using microprocessors instead of the technology used 20 years ago"

Eh? Microprocessors have been commercialy available for nearly 50 years, and we all use them every day.

Yodrak. | December 6, 2017

"Since almost all EV charging is done at midnight to 6am where there is a tremendous amount of excess capacity."

Source of that factoid? All of the EV owners I know charge during the day while at work.

But for the sake of discussion let's assume that you're correct (and you may very well be correct), it won't take many EV's charging on a residential distribution circuit to overload it. This is a real industry concern - while there may be plenty of generating capacity during the overnight hours, electric transmission and distribution systems as presently designed and built may be inadequate to get the energy to where it's needed when overnight EV charging becomes a significant load.

ReD eXiLe ms us | December 6, 2017

Ah. So, how much energy is used annually by the NYSE? NASDAQ? LSE? SZSE? SEHK? ENX? SSE? JPX? Are they more, or less efficient, while 'making money' out of nothing at all?

Iwantmy3 | December 7, 2017

Yodrak,
Lets put this in perspective. (I will use numbers for Ontario since I know what they are)
The average car is driven ~20000 km (12500 miles) per year. That is 54.8 km/day
54.8 km requires ~8.5 KW.Hr.
If 6,000,000 cars in Ontario were to shift to EV from ICE, that would add 51.36 GW.Hr per day to the grid.
That is an average consumption of 2.14 GW on an electrical grid which is capable of 30GW+ (and is currently badly underutilized). That means that changing over 6M cars would only consume 7% of the current elctrical grid capacity.

The impact on the grid if this power consumption happens at night is beneficial since it would even out the consumption levels and allow base power production at higher levels (currently overnight wholesale rates are often negative due to over-production of power -wind, nuclear)

Also, since this won't happen over night, this 7% can be part of a long term adjustment.

Any argument claiming that this will be an issue is pure fabrication and ignores the facts.

andy.connor.e | December 7, 2017

Get a solar roof and stop worrying about the grid.

Yodrak. | December 7, 2017

"Lets put this in perspective."

Yes, let's. You are making a broad generality about the capacity of the electric system as a whole, ignoring that some lines can be heavily loaded, causing constraints, while other lines can be very lightly loaded, effectively going unused at the same time.

With the advent of rapidly increasing wind generation and corresponding reduced operation or retirement of thermal generation, the bulk power system in my area is seeing more constraints over night than during the day. The flow patterns today are changing from the patterns for which the bulk transmission system were originally designed. There is a lot of new transmission construction underway as a result, so that problem is being dealt with.

The problem that I pointed out, and that you totally ignored, is on lower voltage distribution systems, in particular the last leg in the system - the local distribution lines that feed customers homes. These lines will become overloaded as overnight at-home charging becomes common. This issue is of great concern to electric utilities, and will require a lot of work to overcome as EVs become more prevalent.

Yodrak. | December 7, 2017

"Get a solar roof and stop worrying about the grid."

A solar roof does not do much good for overnight EV charging at home. Add in a battery storage system to solve that problem. Fortunately, Tesla has that issue covered if the home-owner EV-driver can afford the upfront cost of EV, solar roof, and battery storage combined.

Wimpy ti | December 7, 2017

@IWantMy3

I agree.. I live in Texas and the grid is heavily loaded during the day (AC units) and lightly loaded during the evening.. This is so evident that some companies have been offering FREE (yes free, no transmission charges, nothing) night-time electricity with slightly elevated daytime rates. EV's actually help even out the grid usage.

Yodrak is applying his/her local grid situation and basing an argument off it. Obviously 1 size doesn't fit all with a problem this complex.

ReD eXiLe ms us | December 7, 2017

Yodrak: Holdonasec... Prior to the introduction of Energy Star rated appliances, was there any particular concern of overloading the grid by the domestic use of electricity? I do not recall such concerns being raised regarding microwave ovens, electric ranges, induction cooktops, refrigerators, clothes washers & dryers, or anything else, including hair dryers, electric shavers, & rechargeable electric toothbrushes. Yet, when someone argues in favor of plug-in cars, all of a sudden there is going to be a major problem using the very same grid? C'mon, MAN!

Let's be real here. The Grid exists to support government, military, commercial, and industrial operations. Residential applications are a very low priority. That's why whenever there is a disaster of any sort, it is the power in residential areas that goes off first, and that stays off longest. Whether because of earthquake, storm, or flood, the Grid will not prioritize residences above dead last within the infrastructure repair plans.

If your neighborhood can support a coin operated laundry or three that is in operation from 6:00 am to 10:00 pm every day as they have been since sometime in 1978, then there is certainly enough capacity to handle the barely 1% of fully electric car charging that might take place between 10:00 pm and 6:00 am each day. And there will be plenty of time to make the local Grid more robust, as needed, ahead of reaching 100% market saturation with long range fully electric cars that may each put a whopping huge additional drain of 10-to-12 kWh on the Grid to travel that 40 miles of average daily driving.

Iwantmy3 | December 7, 2017

Yodrak,
The average car will consume 1 Kw of power over night even if all of the charging needs are met over night. This is less than the capacity of a wall socket and takes place over a period of time when home electricity use is minimal. The last leg of the system will not have any issues.

As for fluctuating production due to high amounts of wind power, that is a whole other question that has little to do with EVs and a lot to do with proper management of the grid. Maybe they need one of Elon's giant batteries.

TeslaTap.com | December 7, 2017

Some simple capacity analysis:

1) In many areas, at 6pm in the Winter, a house can be using an oven, stove top, heater, and lighting - easily could be in the 60-80 amps at 240 vac. Duplicate this with every house in the neighborhood and it's easy to see there is plenty of capacity for the residential network.

2) EVs that charge at midnight to 6am, when there is very little power being used by the rest of the house. Very few EVs charge during this entire time. Smaller EVs are limited to about 10-20 amps, most Tesla vehicles charge in the 30-40 amps range, with a few at 72-80 amps. For common daily usage, many EV owners can easily charge overnight at only 20 amps for 6 hours. They are not running from 100% SOC to 0% every day.

3) While tiny EVs need to charge at work and at home, these are likely to be a dying breed of EVs, as 200+ mile range become standard. Long range EVs don't need to charge at work, and once companies start charging the real rate for charging (quite high during the day), most EV owners will choose to charge at home at the lowest cost times - midnight to 6am. In our area the costs are 4:1, or it costs 1/4 at midnight as it does during the day.

Now I'm sure there are pockets of inadequate electrical distribution, but these are likely already a problem on daily usage unrelated to EV charging.

SamO | December 7, 2017

This is similar to the arguments of whether EVs actually reduce emissions. THEY DO!!!!! Stop clowning yourself.

In point of fact, moving emissions to areas of low human density is smart, so all the studies minimize the benefits to EVs. Even though Tesla is installing solar + batteries everywhere so it doesn't matter when EVs charge.

In the same way, these idiotic arguments about whether EVs will "destroy the grid" or whatever nonsense is spouted on this subject.

1. EVs charge at night. Not during the day. Stop acting stupid. EVs get charged when they aren't being used. Most cars are used during the day, ergo, cars charge at night. And before you spout some ridiculous nonsense about how "but I drive during the night" or "electricity is cheaper during the day where I live." You are in a very small minority. You don't matter in the grand scheme of things.

2. EVs use excess energy to charge at night when fallow energy generation (wind, hydro, NG) would basically just get grounded. EVs help create markets for electricity when there is low demand.

3. Owners will find low cost electricity. If utilities offer incentives to use electricity only Tuesday from 11:17pm to 6:42am, then consumers will fill their batteries during those hours.

Can we just move on to whether Tesla Semi Mega Chargers will cause landslides and a rain of frogs?

Yodrak. | December 7, 2017

"The average car will consume 1 Kw of power over night even if all of the charging needs are met over night. This is less than the capacity of a wall socket"

Which "wall socket" are you referring to? Certainly not a 120 vole, 15 or 20 amp socket. My Leaf draw 6 kW on a Level 2 EVSE. Most newer, longer range EVs will be drawing the equivalent of an electric dryer, electric range, or central AC unit.

Most posters continue to write about the grid as a whole, ignoring that the grid consists of different parts serving different needs and having different characteristics. I agree that increasing EV penetration will benefit "the grid" as a whole, but there are segments of the electric system that will experience real problems that need to be dealt with. As you write, "Residential applications are a very low priority.", and therein lies a problem because that's where EV penetration will have a serious impact. "The Last Mile Problem" is discussed here, along with other issues that need to be addressed. https://www.fleetcarma.com/impact-growing-electric-vehicle-adoption-elec...

Yodrak. | December 7, 2017

"EVs charge at night. Not during the day."

Not necessarily. "workplace charging" may be significantly less than home charging, but it exists.

I agree, however that charging EVs from late at night until early morning is the preferred situation for your local electric utility.

andy.connor.e | December 7, 2017

During the summer. there is sun until 8pm around here. Unless you're getting home at 8pm, you can charge at home when the sun is still out. If you have solar, it doesnt matter what time you charge. If you're home, charge.

Frank99 | December 7, 2017

Yodrak -
Utilities have faced this problem several times in their history, and they've resolved them. They can see the issue coming, they have years of warning, its up to them to upgrade their facilities to handle it. It really is that simple.

Besides, if EM is correct and Level 4/5 autonomy becomes available in the near future, and people stop owning personal vehicles in favor of a autonomous Taxi model, there won't be an issue because there won't be EVs charging in residential areas.

TeslaTap.com | December 7, 2017

@Yodrak - Good article although a few serious errors in its analysis (but overall good).

The article claims utilities have no idea of the loads on residential transformers. This was true 10 years ago, but most residential networks use SmartMeters with minute by minute data collection of usage by each individual house. They can know exactly if loads at any peak moment and can identify weakness in a system well in advance of an issue.

Article: "Imagine what will happen when all electric vehicles owners in the neighborhood decide to recharge them at the same time, in the early evening, after returning from work, which is more or less the same time households turn their cooking, cooling and other appliances on."

Another silly argument - as just about every EV made has scheduled charging to move the charging time from peak evening (the most expensive) to overnight (the cheapest). Not sure why anyone would want to pay 4 times as much for charging, when overnight charging is so much cheaper. Now to be fair, some areas do not offer time-of-day billing - which is needed to encourage proper power usage.

In 5 years with a Model S, I've never needed to charge at home outside the midnight to 6am window, and I charge at at 240VAC 30 amps. Other S/X/Leaf owners I know locally charge in the same midnight to 6am window. Both helps the grid and saves a lot of money. One Volt friend does charge during the morning, as the company he works at provides free power, but his commute is all of 4 miles.

As the article points out the best long-term solution is utility controlled charging. Let the utility pick when each EV charges, so long as it completes by an owner specified time.

I'm actually on a service where they pay me to stop charging for an hour if they see too high of a demand. Turns out in about 18 months now they have never needed to turn off charging in the midnight to 6am range. If others are interested in this service, go to ohmConnect: https://ohm.co/85d4bae. They can control other items like WiFi thermostats to pay you when it's needed (with advanced notice and opt-out options) It's in California and perhaps a few other areas and does require that you have a utility SmartMeter as almost everyone in California already does.

ReD eXiLe ms us | December 7, 2017

TeslaTap contributed, "For common daily usage, many EV owners can easily charge overnight at only 20 amps for 6 hours. They are not running from 100% SOC to 0% every day."

+42! Exactly. I hate it when automobile journalists repeatedly point out the amount of time to charge an electric vehicle 'from flat' using an ordinary household outlet, as if the car's battery will be magically empty when you get home, every day, no matter how far it has been driven.

Yodrak. | December 7, 2017

"most residential networks use SmartMeters ... It's in California ...and does require that you have a utility SmartMeter as almost everyone in California already does"

"In California" I've been accused a few times, including in this thread I think, of expressing thoughts based on my area that do not apply to other areas. Granted, California is a huge area and at this time probably contains most of the EVs in the USA. On the other hand, many people consider that California is a whole different country.

Iwantmy3 | December 7, 2017

That's the point. Individual use and charge rates don't matter. All that matters is the average and the average can be covered with 8KW.Hr per day. That is an average of 1kw from 11pm to 7am. The cars can be sett to charge any time in that period so the average will apply. Again, we are talking about a relatively small increase in overall electrical usage that will take a decade to develop.

Put another way, I changed out all of my incandescent light bulbs to LEDs four years ago. The money I am saving on electricity from that change alone will cover my increased cost for charging the car. It's insignificant in the greater scheme of things.

Iwantmy3 | December 7, 2017

Yodrak,
Time of use applies to a lot of markets. We have it in Ontario. If that becomes an issue, you will have it soon enough.

Yodrak. | December 7, 2017

"I hate it when automobile journalists repeatedly point out the amount of time to charge an electric vehicle 'from flat' using an ordinary household outlet"

Me too. After all, how many people charge their EV using" an ordinary household outlet"? Tesla owners especially, whose cars require more than a 120 volt source just to run the battery temperature control, probably don't use an ordinary household outlet. If people did charge at 120 volts, EV charging wouldn't become a problem for utilities as EV penetration increases.

topher | December 7, 2017

"During the summer. there is sun until 8pm around here."

If you run the calculations (or observe a solar system's output) you will see that there isn't much to be had in early evening. A combination of low angle, and sun orientation far from South, means that PV aren't getting much.

On my best day in July (got my panels then), I got a mere 0.17kW at 6:00pm, where I got 4.5 kW at the peak. There was nothing at 8:00pm.

"as if the car's battery will be magically empty when you get home"

I think they think that you only charge when you run out (like going to the dinosaur station). Hopefully the smart phone analogy will become more common and get rid of this misconception.

Thank you kindly.

TeslaTap.com | December 7, 2017

@Yodrak - Yep - everyone has a bit of a local centric view. Sorry if my points don't apply to your area! Sometimes I forget many areas are not like my crazy area :)

To downgrade me some more, not only am I in California, I'm in one of the most densely EV populated cities in the USA. I expect about 1/3 of my neighbors have a PEV or EV with more popping up all the time as old vehicles are replaced. In every few miles of travel, I'll see at least one Tesla, a Leaf and a Volt. Not to many Model 3s on the road yet (I saw one yesterday).

SamO | December 7, 2017

Los Angeles County population is larger than 41 US States

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C526pxGXEAM6IFN.jpg

Steam613 | December 7, 2017

So here's a twist. Read an article recently that hacks were using the Tesla's onboard graphics processors to mine BitCoin while plugged into chargers. I'm sorry I don't have the citation to validate. It was something I scanned during work and didn't fully vet. Is there some news place called EcoMotoring? Might have been the source. Anyway, that there is a conundrum.

ReD eXiLe ms us | December 7, 2017

It won't be an issue if everyone in a local area charges their electric vehicles at 240 either. Just as there is no problem with everyone in the neighborhood using an electric range to roast turkeys or hams all at once, low and slow, over the holidays while Christmas lights are ablaze all over the house, the yard, the hedges, the chimney, the fence, the walkway...

Frank99 | December 7, 2017

Steam613 -
I saw that on a couple of feeds. There were photos of somebody who had placed several bitcoin mining rigs in the trunk of the Tesla, and was allegedly powering them from the battery, and cruising to the local supercharger once a day to replenish charge.

I doubt that the Tesla 350V->12V charger could push enough current to run the kilowatt-sized rig he had, so he would have had to hook directly to the main battery and buy/build an appropriate voltage converter. I'm guessing that the story is just another facebook fakeout; he put the hardware in the trunk but didn't actually connect it to anything and then took the pictures.

bj | December 7, 2017

@Yodrak - "while there may be plenty of generating capacity during the overnight hours, electric transmission and distribution systems as presently designed and built may be inadequate to get the energy to where it's needed when overnight EV charging becomes a significant load."

Well that is not true provided EVs don't charge when the peak consumption is otherwise at its highest. If EV's charge at non-peak times, there is by definition headroom in the grid and all components thereof.

Over the past 3 years, charging my LEAF has added about 10% to my household's electricity consumption. That suggests that even at 90% of the grid peak times, charging EVs would still make no difference.

In Australia, the diurnal ratio of peak elecriticy consumption to minimum electricity consumption varies between 4:1 and 3:1, depending on location and season. Overnight charging of EVs adds nothing to peak grid load it merely helps fill in the gaps.

RedShift | December 7, 2017

@stea613

It’s not that the miners were using Tesla’s GPUs, but GPUs are by the vendor, Nvidia.
Some estimates now claim 40% of nvidia revenues are from bitcoin mining operations.

Yodrak. | December 7, 2017

"Overnight charging of EVs adds nothing to peak grid load it merely helps fill in the gaps."

Like others, you are writing about the macro picture. The issue I am pointing out is at the micro level - the radial feeder that serves a limited area and was sized for that area based on historical - pre EV - data. When one person in the neighborhood such as yourself adds an EV, no problem. At some point in the future when the whole neighborhood has EVs, the situation becomes different.

If and when EVs do become the king of the road, electric utilities are going to have a lot of work to do with all of the new money they're bringing in, that's all I'm saying.

bj | December 7, 2017

@Yodrak - "At some point in the future when the whole neighborhood has EVs, the situation becomes different."

But only if the aggregate of EV charging creates a new peak higher than the previous peak. I think this is doubtful, even with BEV penetration well over 50% of the fleet. Three things will defer if not eliminate the grid apocalypse - the increasing uptake of household solar and storage which will remove a lot of demand from the grid, reducing remaining household demand through increasing energy efficiency of appliances, and the fact that 50% BEV penetration this will take so long that if any incremental grid upgrades are required during that time, it will be indistinguishable from BAU.

bj | December 7, 2017

@Yodrak - "how many people charge their EV using an ordinary household outlet?"

I do.

ReD eXiLe ms us | December 8, 2017

Historical pre-EV data is likely equivalent to pre-microwave, pre-induction range, or pre-microchip based home computers & videogames. So, we are talking about places that never advanced beyond having three or four incandescent light bulbs per household. That would be places that have not upgraded electrical infrastructure since circa 1947 or so... I remember some shotgun houses back in the mid-1970s that were like that in the Mississippi Delta, where there was an outlet adapter screwed into the single light fixture in the room, with extension cords used to power fans, a radio, and maybe a television... Most of those joints burned down by 30 or 35 years ago, if they didn't just disintegrate and fall over. These days rural areas are 'only' about 60 years behind the times, though. They actually have satellite televusion, outlets in finished interior walls, and indoor plumbing. You can even buy energy saving LED light fixtures here if you want, and many people use air conditioners during the long, hot, Summer. Charging EVs at residences here would not be a problem at all.

ddeboy | December 8, 2017

I wanted to short b coin but there is no way to do so. Huge problem with the trading. It jumps up and down so fast you can't put an order in so it is program controlled. You can't sell it fast enough either-so it is locked and loaded.
Hacking b coin is the only way to make money and someone is successfully doing so. Congrats to them.
As for Tesla power-don't forget we owners-most of us have our own power-solar wind water. I'm not worried about overloading the grid at all-It's all just a myth.

bj | December 8, 2017

@Red - I should have added that when I replaced my 50 halogen downlights with truly fantastic LED ones, my household power consumption went down by 20%. And got much nicer lighting to boot. My LEAF added 10%. So I am using less electricity than I was before I did those things. When I get Model 3, my worst case outcome is I go back to where I was. But by then I will have solar and storage, so I won't be.

Rocky_H | December 8, 2017

@Yodrak, Quote: “Like others, you are writing about the macro picture. The issue I am pointing out is at the micro level - the radial feeder that serves a limited area and was sized for that area based on historical - pre EV - data. When one person in the neighborhood such as yourself adds an EV, no problem. At some point in the future when the whole neighborhood has EVs, the situation becomes different.”

No. I’m not sure why this is not getting through. I think maybe you are confusing the amount of energy consumed with the power level being used. IF this were talking about a slight _increase_ of each house’s power level, then yes, you would have a point, that these small increases would need to be aggregated together to see if, in total, they could be too much extra draw on the lines. But this is a lower power level than the house’s average, not a higher level. As people have been pointing out, during the day time, houses are routinely using a lot of power through many things being used at once. TVs running, washer, dryer, lights, A/C, etc. etc. At night, most of those things are not running, so the power level is low. Even with the car charging during the night, the power level is still _lower_ than it is during the day. So with the use case of each house, including EV, still having lower power draw at night than during the day, aggregating doesn’t matter, because the grid already handles the higher daytime load of all of those houses put together.

Yodrak. | December 8, 2017

"I’m not sure why this is not getting through."

I'm thinking the same in reverse. The only thing more I will say is that the utility industry is concerned, as witnessed by the number of technical papers being published on the subject by IEEE and other industry organizations. Hopefully the population of EVs will become significant in the not too distant future, and more hopefully the owners of those EVs will be as rigorous about charging only during the late night and early morning hours as some people on this forum claim to be.

TeslaTap.com | December 8, 2017

@Yodrak - There is a huge incentive to charge overnight in many areas. We pay $0.39 kW/h for peak power (2pm to 9pm). We pay $0.09 kW/h from 12 am to 6am. Any utility that doesn't have such a plan can implement one if they need to balance the grid and/or are concerned about EVs. Our utility even advertises and promotes EV and EV rates. Seems utilities find it very profitable to have EVs charging in the wee hours that is normally wasted power. Every EV owner I know around here uses this approach - not just Tesla owners either.

Now there are a few locations like Hawaii, where most of the power comes from diesel generators (and a little solar/wind). They charge around $.40 kW/h 24/7, but could easily adapt a time of day rates if the residential grid became loaded to shift power to other times. It's amazing what a little incentive like pricing can do!

Yodrak. | December 8, 2017

"There is a huge incentive to charge overnight in many areas. We pay $0.39 kW/h for peak power (2pm to 9pm). We pay $0.09 kW/h from 12 am to 6am."

I pay just under $0.09 /kwhr 24/7, including the connect fee and riders. Excluding the connect fee and riders the 24/7 rate is $0.0876 /kwhr up to 750 kWh's per month and $0.06 /kwhr after 750 kWhr's per month (which is where my EV charging comes in) and the off-peak rate is $0.0789 for all kWh's. No savings there for switching to a TOD rate and charging in the wee hours.

"Seems utilities find it very profitable to have EVs charging in the wee hours that is normally wasted power."

Some utilities, including your utility. Not all utilities, including my utility.

"Every EV owner I know around here uses this approach - not just Tesla owners either."

There are a lot of EV owners who you do not know.

I will admit that there are a lot of EV owners who I do not know either. Those who I do know charge primarily during the day, at work. So let's not be basing our arguments on our own situations, let's recognize that different EV owners in different parts of the country have different situations and EVs are not all charged late at night on attractive off-peak rates.

ReD eXiLe ms us | December 8, 2017

Yodrak: It is fully understood, accepted, and realized that not everyone, everywhere throughout the U.S. pays the same amount or has the same terms of payment for residential electricity. It is also generally accepted and positively stipulated that many EV Owners, especially those who own Tesla products, do the majority of their charging at home overnight and enjoy the pleasure of waking up to 'a full tank' every morning before starting their day. To those in California who have endured ridiculously high rates per kWh since the ENRON scandal came to a head in 2001, Time of Use plans have provided some minor relief from the financial burden posed by electrical billing utilities that has not appeared to such a magnitude in many other parts of the country. A burden that is the direct result of deregulation efforts that did the exact opposite of what its proponents claimed it would (supposedly 'lower prices through more competition') and resulted in disaster (all 'competitors' exclusively sold to ENRON, who then raised prices across the board).

Yodrak. | December 8, 2017

"To those in California who have endured ridiculously high rates per kWh since the ENRON scandal came to a head in 2001" I have sympathy for you. I understand why you charge only late at night when you have an off-peak rate.

But, those of us who are EV owners who are lucky enough to not live in California, and there are a lot of us, follow the advice of a poster who wrote "It is probably best to leave it plugged in at all time so it will take care of itself when at rest." Remember, "A plugged in Tesla is a happy Tesla"

ReD eXiLe ms us | December 8, 2017

Ah. Mutually agreed understanding. And charging your cars at work during the day is still unlikely to have any signifant effect on your local grid, especially if they happen to have those awesome solar panel covered parking spaces. Charging overnight is likely to have none.

Mike83 | December 8, 2017

Where the rates are the highest you will find more solar systems.

https://www.californiasolarstatistics.ca.gov/reports/locale_stats/

Next we have people installing Tesla Powerwalls to take advantage of the sun during the day and spending it when rates are higher and it provides emergency backup. Also schools, businesses(Wal Mart, Ikea, etc.) are doing larger scale batteries like in LA, Kauai, Australia and other places using mini-grids or Power-packs.

Its a no brainer to install Solar to charge your car or Powerwall IMO.

Yodrak. | December 8, 2017

"Its a no brainer to install Solar to charge your car or Powerwall IMO."

Depends on where one lives. I note that your reference is only for California, where electricity rates are high, and that the areas with the highest solar rankings are strictly southern California. There's are reasons why, in many areas of the USA, solar just isn't ready for prime time.

Ikea in particular does have solar installations on most, if not all, of its buildings in the USA even in areas that are not good for solar. I suspect that's because even if some of those installations are not cost effective on their own they still contribute to the corporate goal of being environmentally friendly.

Mike83 | December 8, 2017

I listed California as that was about the high rates but the entire US is also showing strong growth.
https://www.seia.org/solar-industry-data

In the world it is growing more with China in the lead as the Feds need to pay the guys that got them elected, ie. the fossil fuel monopolies.
https://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/china-solar-energy/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_by_country

Pages