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Ludicrous isn't Ludicrous until the battery is hot!

Ludicrous isn't Ludicrous until the battery is hot!

I just picked up my P90D Ludicrous the other day. I had noticed some discrepancy in posts on performance of Ludicrous. Some pics posted showed the car in Ludicrous but did not show the battery was ready. The indication is very subtle and faint lettering under the Ludicrous button. I wonder if there is a little learning curve going on here. The car screams when in mode. Unlike my P85D you cannot just hit Ludicrous and be in mode. You have to have a hot battery. The time for the battery to heat can be minutes in a cold car. The battery drain is meaningful in Ludicrous.

Firewired | September 17, 2015

What do you mean by "the battery drain is meaningful in Ludicrous"?

In my P85D I just leave it in Insanse mode. Does leaving it in Ludicrous case increased consumption even when you aren't hammering it?

longlakeis | September 17, 2015

Yes

DavetheSmelter | September 17, 2015

Why that just seems Ludicrous!!!!

longlakeis | September 17, 2015

It is odd to me. I thought the batteries had a cooling system. Yet for Ludicrous the batteries need to be hot. I am on the learning curve too.

JAD | September 17, 2015

I don't have ludicrous, but I would assume the battery can't be hot or cold, must be just right. Maybe Goldilocks mode :)

pdQue | September 17, 2015

I had heard earlier that ludicrous increased battery drain, but only on launches

I drive our P85D in Insane mode only.

Bighorn | September 17, 2015

I'm not convinced it's a temperature thing based on what's been observed so far.

TeslaTap.com | September 17, 2015

I'm not sure a hot battery is needed. Perhaps better to state not a cold battery (i.e. after a cold soak in winter)?

The battery active heat/cooling is set to be within the range 10-50 degrees C (50-122 degrees F). If outside this range, I expect the power is purposely limited by software until it can get it back into the full power band.

It could be that Ludicrous mode has a more narrow band that is optimal for maximum power. We'd need to see the diagnostic's screens at various temps and while in Ludicrous mode to fathom it out, which is difficult. (I don't have access myself).

evsisson | September 17, 2015

@DavetheSmelter - "Why that just seems Ludicrous!!!!"
@JAD - "...... Maybe Goldilocks mode"

MSASWRL (My Sides Are Splitting With Raucous Laughter)

Salute | September 17, 2015

If you watch the long dissertation on batteries by a professor in Canada that is talking about different chemical formulas in batteries, there are two take-aways. First is Tesla uses the best formula for Lithium batteries and Leaf uses the worst. Second, Lithium batteries operate the most efficient with internal temps at 135 degrees. For the internals of a battery to be 135 can well mean that outside temps need to be 85 degrees. I am not sure how much heat is automatically created by a charged battery and if the outside temps were 100, then the inside battery temp could be 150 (or something like that). It does not surprise me that the car may want to warm the battery if it less than optimal mode.

Humans are 98.6 degrees but like outside air to be 72 degrees. Batteries are similar so cooling at anything over 80 degrees maybe needed.

I watched the professors dissertation 2 years ago before buying the car. The link was on this forum 2 years ago, I don't have it now.

inconel | September 17, 2015

If the car is already warmed up, can you switch to Ludicrous and punch right away or is there still some preparation time?

longlakeis | September 17, 2015

The warmer the car the faster Ludicrous is available. That said it is not instantaneous, per my limited use. The outside temp and other variables may come in to play. I left the car for wrap and tint. Under the Ludicrous button is says Max Battery Power. Next to that it will say "Preparing..." After that it will say "Ready!"
Max Battery Power is Bright Blue but the Preparing and Ready are faint. You have to hit the Max Battery Power to get a screen that says: Something about heating the battery to get max ohms. I didn't memorize while I was driving. After you hit the button, or you can cancel, the button begins preparing. If you look at some of the screen shots out there it doesn't look like people knew you had to start the process.

longlakeis | September 17, 2015

In prepared Ludicrous mode the car is amazing! The screen says something to the effect that Ludicrous does impact the long-term battery charge I think. I can put it on here when I get the car back.

inconel | September 17, 2015

Hmm maybe Ludicrous Not-Ready is equivalent to Insane then. Most of the time in Insane, occasionally when we really ask for it in Ludicrous Ready.

How long does Ready last when you play hard and what to do when it disappears, ask and wait for it again?

The long term effect on the battery is a bit worrisome...

brian | September 17, 2015

Thanks for sharing, this is all interesting. In my P85D, I just leave it in insane mode, infact I don't think in the 15K miles I have I have ever driven it in any other mode. I like the fact that I don't have to think about the mode. Please keep us posted as you discover more, I will be getting the upgrade, so I do appreciate the advanced notice.

longlakeis | September 18, 2015

Even when I picked the car up Tesla people were a little vague on how all this worked on how long things took. It was only the second car Seattle had delivered. I am trying not to drive the car to keep it clean for a TV appearance Sat am. The tint looks great but only a partial front wrap was completed in time. But after I do ranch chores I will post the warning of invoking ludicrous. I am very busy with contractors on my ranch and sick mother-in-law in town so I am writing fast with no editing.

longlakeis | September 18, 2015

"Select Max Battery Power to condition your battery to a high temperature where it has low impedance-best for short term acceleration and performance. The tradeoff for the power boost is extra energy consumption and earlier power fade on long aggressive drives."

So I think what is going on is Ludicrous without Max Battery Power is the old Insane Mode. I don't know what the feel of "power fade is on long aggressive drives" is yet.

steven | September 18, 2015

Wouldn't it mean that you get the dotted line on the power indicator and reduced power earlier? It does that when the battery overheats from aggressive driving. Getting 200 additional amps out of the battery will definitely increase the heat generation and therefore it might go into "battery save mode" and reduce power sooner.

I don't read this as having a bad effect on long term battery life or degradation. Just that you can't lap the Nürburgring in complete Ludicrous mode. But that's just my interpretation.

longlakeis | September 18, 2015

The term "extra energy consumption" seems to imply something related to battery capacity. But who knows? The Tesla employee told me it was heating the battery but maybe that was his interpretation of what this message meant and not his training. He admitted it was all new to them.

longlakeis | September 18, 2015

I think you are right there is no bad effect on long-term battery life. I ran the car to 100mph so fast it was amazing in Max Battery Power. It is so smooth you don't realize you are getting to 100 so quick. I have 21 tires the performance is great in curves of course. Maybe I'll get the car a little dirty today. I am not that into the energy consumption stats of the car but maybe I will look at those screens more. I just like to drive.

inconel | September 19, 2015

I test drove a P90D Ludicrous today. It has what I would call "Ludicrous Lite" and "Ludicrous Max".

When in Ludicrous and if you don't ask for "Max" the car is in "Lite", which I think is almost the same as Insane. It might be a tad faster than Insane but it is hard to tell for sure, best would be to run them side by side.

If you ask for "Max" by pressing Max Battery Power then the battery is prepared for optimal power delivery, it shows "Preparing" then "Ready" when ready. I think in "Max" mode the battery has to be in a much narrower optimal temperature range, it either has to warm up or cool down. In Max mode I could feel a difference compared to Insane but it is a small difference. Acceleration from 50-60 mph feels a bit faster but not substantially faster. Once put in Max mode the car tries to stay in the mode but we saw it revert to "Preparing" after a few pulls on the highway, it was trying to cool the battery back down into the optimal temperature range. I think the effort in Max mode to keep the car in this narrow temperature range will have a large penalty on mileage.

I think Max mode is pushing the current technology closer to its limits and having to wait for Max mode to "prepare" feels like having to put ICE cars in launch mode.

I must admit that I am a bit disappointed that acceleration from 50-60 mph in Ludicrous Max was not that much stronger compared to Insane but I am still going to do the upgrade because I could feel the difference. YMMV.

lolachampcar | September 19, 2015

Mine was a FL test drive two days ago (so the battery may have been warmer than others) and I had the opposite experience. I asked the sales person not to turn on the battery heating as I have no interest in having to push buttons and "prepare" for performance. I hated the 400 hp button on my old M5 and I have no use for launch mode on my current sports car. I was interested in how the car performs all by itself without preparation.

It pulled about like my PD up to 30 mph and much better above that. We were on public roads and I did not own the car so my limit was 80 mph. There is no doubt in my mind that the L performed much better above 30 than my PD and would be well worth the $5K upgrade.

pdQue | September 19, 2015

Good to see the mixed reviews on Ludicrous. I've now seen two threads on this forum discussing it and the other report was similar to the report by Inconel today.

With the news in the below thread regarding V7 that there will also be a battery preparation mode for all of the performance model S variants. it appears that there will essentially be an "Insane Lite" and an "Insane Max" as well.

Take a look

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/51563-Calling-P85D-owners-...

It will be interesting to see, what, if any differences and no matter how subtle, in 0-60 quarter mile times the option for setting the command for the battery to go into the optimal temperature and charge state for maximum power, in cars with Insane Mode.

For me, it's a toss up. If you have Insane, Ludicrous is even nicer, but comes with a few trade offs if you want to get the maximum benefit from Ludicrous.

I may still end up getting the upgrade, but Ludicrous is becoming less of a must have as I learn a little more about it's operation, capabilities, and for lack of a better term, "nuances".

However all of that said, I can certainly understand the rationale of those who will opt for it. You can never have too much performance capability.

inconel | September 19, 2015

Thanks for sharing. It does indeed seem that Insane will also get a Max mode. I would expect Max mode to give 3.1 sec 0-60 as Tesla must have used the optimal conditions when they did the timings.

And Max mode comes with a small cost to battery longevity:
"Occasionally pressing max performance will not have a noticeable negative effect on battery life, but it should not stay there all the time".

Now Max mode is sounding more and more like launch mode to me. To be used only occasionally at launches, and comes with costs similar to the wear and tear on ICE cars transmission.

inconel | September 19, 2015

Another thought: if using Max mode frequently has an adverse effect on battery life then demo cars might be affected. Not sure if being put in Max mode dozens of times daily qualifies as occasionally.

Tropopause | September 19, 2015

Are you sure there is a degradation of the battery? What exactly is causing the degradation of battery life? Is it the fact max battery output is utilized? I don't see why optimum temperature would adversely affect battery life; just reduces range a bit do to extra energy consumption of pumps, heaters, etc.

Usually the main culprits of degradation are:

-high temps
-high discharge (above rated C)
-high charge (above rated C)
-full/empty SOC

Am I missing any?

mrrjm | September 19, 2015

Does anyone know if the battery will heat up when connected to the grid? If so this seems like a great way to heat the battery in the winter. Since it doesn't really heat up otherwise.

lolachampcar | September 20, 2015

I suspect the lowest internal resistance temperature (optimal for power draw) may be higher than the ideal longevity cell temperature. Hot batteries improve performance but at the expense of life(????).

As for heating while charging, yes the battery does heat while charging as a function of charge rate. My wife's singer charger cycles the AC while charging significantly less than my dual charger car and both howl away while supercharging. The key would be to catch your car near the end of charge as charge taper will reduce heating and thus the attempt at a cell temperature benefit catching the car coming off charge.

mrrjm | September 20, 2015

I should clarify. I wanted to know if anyone is able to "prepare" the battery for Ludicrous mode off the grid? If so I thought this would great for warming the battery in the winter. Normal charging warms the battery a little. But in low temps I still get the dashed orange lines.

longlakeis | September 20, 2015

I gave test rides at a Drive Electric Event yesterday. The car was in Ludicrous Max and stayed there. The outside temp was in the 70s and there were pauses between rides. I still hate to stomp on the accelerator as it is not natural without malice of forethought. Even the sudden little whooshes thrill people. That said people loved the car and ride...if only they didn't cost so much! They are waiting on the Model 3.

Preparing the battery after charging overnight takes a long time. I haven't been able to wait long enough to find out how many minutes yet. Driving the car speeds up the process.

Ankit Mishra | September 20, 2015

Videos please.

mrrjm | September 20, 2015

Any 1/4 miles times to quantify?

PV_Dave @US-PA | September 21, 2015

@mrrjm: Yes, I confirmed yesterday that "Max power preparation" will pull from the grid, as one would expect, since it's really just a battery heating/cooling operation with tighter thresholds than normal.

Car was fully charged, plugged in and not pulling from grid. I initiated a "max power" prep, and it started pulling from the grid while claiming to not be charging.

So for extreme range in winter conditions, it would seem that prep for max power and then turning off Ludicrous would provide more grid-based thermal charge, to keep the battery from needing to be heated as soon in cold conditions. Whether that's actually useful relative to just doing a typical climate conditioning is a separate question...

inconel | September 21, 2015

We also need to find out whether or not Max will heat the battery to a higher than healthy temperature...

Another hypothesis why Max is not good for the battery (when used more than occasionally) is maybe not because of higher temperature but because it draws a large current for too long?

Tropopause | September 21, 2015

I'm still not sure "Max Performance" is bad for the battery.

inconel | September 21, 2015

That was in an email from Tesla executive office. Unless the email was a fake...

Pete90D | September 21, 2015

I've had my P90D since August 22 and I did a lot of data dumps on TMC about various things. This is one of the topics I discussed.

Here are the data points from playing with it a number of times.
* When it turns on is completely variable. It can take 2 miles or 10 miles of driving. Doesn't matter if you charge before or not. It just has no predictable time to turn on.
* It can turn off in the middle of use and go back to Preparing
* I did not notice a difference. I polled the streaming API while launching and I was in the 450kW range without it and maxed out at 457kW with it on

While it might give better performance in some situations you will still get Tesla advertised numbers. It is still in Ludicrous mode even with Max Battery Power disabled. I was able to hit 2.81s with 1ft rollout, just as Tesla said it would do and I did it without Max Battery Power enabled (not preparing or ready). So far I haven't beaten that with it on or off. Tesla uses lighter drivers with cars that are base models to reduce weight. My car is fully loaded and I weigh 215. So it is likely to be slightly better with a lighter driver.

You can see my VBOX data showing that in this thread
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/52587-P90D-Performance-Pow...

30+ is definitely different. I let a long time P85D owner drive my car yesterday and he wrote a review on TMC about his experience. I clocked 50-70 as 1.5s, while the P85D run DragTimes did was 1.65s. I haven't timed the 30-70 yet to update this wiki page, but I believe it will be better than 0.15s improvement, probably more like 0.3 or 0.4.

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/46923-0-60-30-50-50-70-com...

pdQue | September 21, 2015

I read the review Pete90D on the other forum.

While the poster's review in that thread was interesting, I have to admit that it would have been of more value had the cars been run side by side from say a 30mph roll to a legal limit speed of say, 65 or 70mph.

Or even to start from a 50mph roll roll and up to 75 or 80mph.

As I understand it, the poster of that thread drove his car along the same path first, and then you were generous enough to let him drive your car along the same route, and he posted his opinions.

I'm thinking that without a side by side test, which was odd since both cars were indeed available, it's a bit harder to get an appreciation for how much improvement in get up and go one should expect from a roll with Ludicrous vs Insane.

Driving one car and then following that up by driving the other vs driving both side by side, is in my mind of limited value, well, I'll wait to see side by side comparisons.

I mean really, what was he going to say after your generosity?????

I don't think it will be until I see the results of side by side, from a roll to a legal limit, or just above, that I will get a full appreciation of how much Ludicrous offers in terms of passing power, over Insane.

whitex | September 21, 2015

After reading this and other threads on the topic, it seems to me (putting my EE hat on) that Ludicrous actually contains 2 independent boosts over Insane:
1. Increased current out of the battery (+200A) via batter fuse and contactor
2. Ability to place the battery at a temperature optimal to minimize the battery internal resistance. This upgrade is pure software.

It sounds like #1 is available all the time, and #2 is on-demand because temperatures optimal to the internal resistance and less than optimal for long term battery life (i.e. degradation) and to range (uses more power to heat/cool the battery, therefore increasing the Wh/m and reducing the range). It also sounds like #2 will become available to insane mode owners with 7.0, which makes sense.

To get full ludicrous performance, you'll need to engage both #1 and #2, and have the battery at some optimal state of charge (since internal resistance also depends on SoC).

Pete90D | September 21, 2015

@pdQue well I think GG would have told the truth. As the passenger in both cars I noticed a difference and it wasn't about it just being a new car. I have no interest in reading a lot of stories of disappointed upgraders so I wouldn't have said there was a difference if I didn't notice it as well.

Side by side would have been harder to do both because location and traffic. I could do really really late, but not everyone can. DragTimes is going to provide a side by side for everyone.

I see a lot of cops and I'd rather not have incriminating acts recorded on video. I haven't seen a lot of data dumps or videos being posted. That means that I do stand out a bit more with it known where I've charged, roads I've driven, etc. I don't need cops looking for me hoping to catch me racing because they saw one side by side on Youtube. It's not that I don't want to provide the data points to the community, but that I don't want the trouble that might come with it.

pdQue | September 21, 2015

I can certainly understand the concern about video, and this is why in lieu of it, I'd be willing to accept a report of car lengths gained vs Insane mode at a given speed, preferably one within the posted speed limit.

My point though is a comparison of "side to side", would seem to be of more value than "back to back" as there would be less likelihood of exuberance entering into the equation, and more of an objective assessment could be obtained.

At any rate, I feel that as time passes and such side by side comparisons start to show up, that we will get a clearer picture of the practical difference between ludicrous and insane at cruising speeds.

Yes, the differences between the two from a standstill and through a standing quarter mile are less disputable. If you're a drag racer, and will be headed to the track to beat down stock ICE vehicles from virtually any and all comers, well then ludicrous, hands down.

However the difference from a highway roll and for perhaps a somewhat aggressive passing maneuver, are what some will have their eyes on.

pdQue | September 23, 2015

@Pete90D | SEPTEMBER 21, 2015
"@pdQue well I think GG would have told the truth. As the passenger in both cars I noticed a difference and it wasn't about it just being a new car. I have no interest in reading a lot of stories of disappointed upgraders so I wouldn't have said there was a difference if I didn't notice it as well."

>>>>>>>><<<<<<<

Pete, I really appreciate your efforts, and any other information on Ludicrous that we have to this point.

And also appreciate your concern for potentially disappointed upgraders up the road.

I think a lot of this however, comes down to expectations, or more aptly put, realistic expectations, and an understanding of how conditions can affect results.

I watched the comparison video which came out yesterday. Even though the P90DL got a clear jump, the difference, IMO would have still been significant even had they left the line at the same time.

You also mention elsewhere that you have a PBOX file that says 1/8 was done in 7.222s @ 93.526mph.

This is where it gets interesting. With those type numbers for the 1/8, it is going to be very difficult for one of these cars to break into a the 10s in the quarter mile, at 10.9, let alone 10.8, unless it has serious top end.

7.22 in the 1/8 leaves a lot to make up if a 10.9 second quarter mile time is to be produced. It leaves around 3.7 seconds to make it the rest of the way down the track. Not an easy feat.

Personally, should I get the Ludicrous upgrade, and I am leaning more toward it now than against it, I really don't expect to see consistent 10s, and would feel that I got my money's worth if it could produce 11.1, 11.2. 10s would be gravy. But I know that 10.9, 10.8, either will require near perfect track conditions in terms of traction, or perhaps some update to the current Ludicrous capabilities.

At any rate though, this P85D owner who is considering Ludicrous, will not be disappointed from what he's seen so far.

uslanddoctor | September 23, 2015

New P90DL was taking a long time to prepare for ludicrous mode so I took it to Tesla yesterday and hers's what I found out. The service manager held down both scroll wheels on the steering wheel to reset the onboard computer system. He said that doing this will solve 90% of all problems. After the reset we took it for a drive and hit the "max power" button to precondition the batteries and it worked almost instantly. For those of you who have a P90DL and are experiencing long wait times for preconditioning the batteries I recommend doing a hard reset as stated above.

By the way we took delivery in Chicago on Sept. 17 and drove it to Minneapolis shortly after and I didn't realize that you had to hit the "max power" button to truly experience ludicrous mode. This is our first Tesla and I thought it was beyond fast already. I must have launched it 20 times yesterday and it never gets old. The first time it shocked me and I actually hurt my neck a little bit.

rjayjan | October 13, 2015

P90D Ludicrous---Max Battery Power "preparation" has taken at least 20 minutes on 4 attempts, with outside temperature at 70-80 F, including "preparing" when it was plugged in, and while driving. This is a very long time to wait to get full Ludicrous power, and it was not disclosed by Tesla when I ordered the car, or in the manual, or anywhere --not even by tweet, as necessary in order to get the performance specs they quoted. Not happy about that. I think they have just recently added some documentation about "max battery", which the 800 number technical rep said he was emailing me as of 30 minutes ago, but has still not arrived in my inbox.

Tesla should come clean and disclose the HP, Torque, and acceleration specs when the car is in "plain" Ludicrous mode and when "max battery power" has been "prepared". Then the consumer can decide to pay for a $13k ($10 ludicrous, $3 90Kwh) upgrade vs P85D Insane mode.

Bighorn | October 13, 2015

@uslanddoctor
The scroll wheel reboot is almost always the first approach for most any glitch. Don't know that what was done would be referred to as a hard reset. He probably did a soft reset of about 7 seconds. To my mind the hard reset is brake on and 30 second hold.

dir | October 24, 2015

How long does the 'Max Battery Power' preparation take?
I have a P85D from May'15, and I turned it off after 30 minutes of 'preparing'.