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******** Maybe NOT Fixed ************** So when does (or how long does it take for) a PxxxD to become more like a SxxxD?

******** Maybe NOT Fixed ************** So when does (or how long does it take for) a PxxxD to become more like a SxxxD?

or, put differently, what are you buying with your P dollars?

I’m starting this thread because my gut tells me this topic is going to have legs and I’d like a place to park all the (hearsay and first hand) data emerging regarding power reduction due to activity “counters”.

Here is an overview https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1870440/

Tesla instituted a performance counter based power reduction system in a software release (V8.0?) without notifying customers or including any mention of it in the release notes. At least one customer’s car had their power reduced significantly (on the order of 50-100 KW).
Customer 1 (https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1876977/) including the response this customer got from Tesla
One indication of the amount of initial power reduction https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1878097/

Tesla then added this to their web site.

Performance versions of the Model S and Model X are high-performance vehicles. As with other vehicles, continuous high-performance driving will stress the vehicle's components and may result in premature wear or failure. To help protect the performance and longevity of the powertrain, Performance versions of the Model S and Model X continually monitor the condition of various components and may employ limiting controls to optimize the overall driving and ownership experience.

Indication from Tesla that all P models are affected. https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1905995/
First mention of multiple counters or, put differently, what are you buying with your P dollars?
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1906207/

Response from Tesla on how you have to drive the car to avoid power reductions (NOT - just a funny)
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1907814/

Further indication the car monitors launches, max battery AND full throttle excursions-
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1908234/

Some more color on the counters, combination counters and possible counter limits before power reduction-
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1908794/

An indication that information coming from Tesla may be being shut down-
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1909089/

Background on individual cell interconnect wires-
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1368425/
which references
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1076154/
Which discusses how close 1500/1600 amps is to the current carrying capability of the individual cell interconnect fuse links. I believe WK saw this coming.

It is looking more and more like 1600ish amps from pre-flex board cell interconnect batteries is the culprit-
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1919500/

Conflicting information indicating possible Tesla software/firmware power reductions on P100DLs
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1920458/

May be linked above but here is another owner's reference point for counters and when they might expire-
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1921888/

This appears to be a P85DL that has been power limited. These two posts are from page three of this thread-
"
robert | January 15, 2017
Ran some testing on my P85DL today and yesterday. At 25min to 'ready' and 92% SoC, I get 393kW. At 'read' and 88% SoC, I get no more than 410kW. Seems something is wrong, as this car should be doing closer to 480kW. Used both PowerTools and TeslaLog. Here is one of many TeslaLog plots showing the same thing:
http://imgur.com/a/c8a40

Here is the latest with a lot of pictures, but the summary is I'm not getting over 415kW.
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1924036/

Fixed

jmcneill | January 17, 2017
Hi everyone,

Based on your input, we have decided to remove all software performance reductions tied to frequent max power usage. These changes will roll out with our next software update (in about three weeks).

We had put these reductions in place to proactively protect the powertrain from wear and tear. Instead, we will monitor the condition of the powertrain and let our customers know if service is needed so that we can take proactive steps, such as by replacing parts if necessary, to maintain the vehicle’s performance.

--Jon
"

Silver2K | January 6, 2017

This is not going to be good for anyone!

will they remove the limitation after 8 years is my question.

RedShift | January 6, 2017

Yesterday, as I was strolling along a busy street, a Tesla passed me at around 50 mph. The motor in the rear was making sounds that could be described charitably as hundreds of crickets chirping at once.

Then I thought back to my own car's drivetrain replacement due to a smaller version of that same sound.

That sound, it was hypothesized on this and Teslamotorsclub forum, was due to the frequent launching and the resultant electromagnetic and mechanical forces wearing out the bearings and other parts. (Spalling and micro-pitting)

Now, I don't launch my car as often, even though my drivetrain is protected per warranty. I wonder how much safety margin is built into Tesla parts, though, after seeing the above.

carlk | January 6, 2017

It just tells you that you can't defeat the physics, wear and tear that is. Other car companies do similar things too. Porsche counts number of red line events you got in your car. It will refuse engine warranty if there are too many because it no longer considers normal driving. They do not tell you exactly how many is too many either you have to find out the hard way. Tesla's "soft" implementation is still better than if you need to replace an expensive engine on your own.

To the general question why one buys the P for I think the answer for many if not most is simply because they can. As for me I don't launch mine very often. What I like most is the passing power which is the main reason I pay for the P. Plus of course I can too.

lilbean | January 6, 2017

I just think it would've been nice to know beforehand. I'd like to know if I was damaging something. If they say the car does this and I do it, I don't want to hear "oh, by the way..." after the damage is done. I'll be like "why TF didn't you tell me!"

Silver2K | January 6, 2017

!naeb ysae

lilbean | January 6, 2017

!spoO

Tropopause | January 6, 2017

Is the P100D launch limited as well?

NKYTA | January 6, 2017

Tropo, the latest speculation is that it is.

Bighorn | January 6, 2017

Good to put this all in one place, but you're not seriously suggesting a 2.4 sec P100D will be hobbled to 4.2 sec, as the title implies?!

Made in CA | January 6, 2017

I don't understand why people give so much credibility to rumor and innuendo from anonymous posters on TMC and here. I just don't get it.

I only had time to read the initial post of the overview at TMC mentioned by the OP. (https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1870440/). There are no facts there. The TMC poster even says "Don't ask me for specific data, I'm not going to give it." WTH?

Of course your car will wear out sooner if you are launching it all the time. If you value longevity over performance don't push the limits of the car as often. Better yet - don't buy a P model in the first place.

Silver2K | January 6, 2017

I've floored my pedal so much, I think a prius passed me on the highway..

Oh nvm, that was someone else.

Silver2K | January 6, 2017

Bighorn

The 90d does 4.2, the 100d after the product falls off should be around 4-4.1.

Sorry to have to correct you, but it had to be done. :)

lolachampcar | January 6, 2017

Made in CA
The first person I quoted is one of the two leading Tesla hackers. He references the counters on the diagnostic screen that only Tesla has access to unless you root the car's linux installation to gain access. The remainder of the posts are long time owners providing feedback they have received from Tesla.

Feel free to question the sources but you may want to do a tad bit of homework first to keep from looking foolish.

Lastly, I used to give Tesla the benefit of the doubt. Their approach starting with the PD announce (HP, 1/4 mile times, etc.) have me no longer doing so. I now expect bad and not good behavior when it comes to engineering managing customers.

BH,
I'm being dramatic with the title. One owner's car has moved from 500 KWish to 400 KWish in power. Part of the reduction is confirmed purposeful reduction via the "counter". The jury is still out as to it all being attributable to the new counter(s).

The point for me is you take delivery of a P and, if you use it more than some specified limits, it becomes a P- or P-- or P---. Again, we do not know.

Lbkp100d | January 6, 2017

If true all of us p owners need to get this info out to the public. I for one would have reconsidered purchasing the P had I knew about the potential in performance cut. Just mind boggling that Tesla markets the P100D model S as the quickest car in production but on the flip side they limit the amount of launches. Seems like they are speaking out of both sides of their mouth!

How can we verify this?

Silver2K | January 6, 2017

I think Tesla is right in doing this, but informing customers he forehand is key. I think they're trying to avoid situations like this https://youtu.be/3rMEtjAHZZU

Bighorn | January 6, 2017

@silver
Yeah, no:)

Lbkp100d | January 6, 2017

I understand what Tesla is doing but you can't market your vehicles as the fastest then will people use them as marketed turn the power down! What other manufacturer does this? I have owned Ferrari's and McLaren's and both those companies host track days and know the minority of their customers are buying the vehicles to use the performance aspects of the vehicles and they don't turn power does as they encourage the use on a track.

Lbkp100d | January 6, 2017

I understand what Tesla is doing but you can't market your vehicles as the fastest then will people use them as marketed turn the power down! What other manufacturer does this? I have owned Ferrari's and McLaren's and both those companies host track days and know the minority of their customers are buying the vehicles to use the performance aspects of the vehicles and they don't turn power does as they encourage the use on a track.

barrykmd | January 6, 2017

I predict a class action suit in the works...

Silver2K | January 6, 2017

!doog ton ,sledom eiriarP eht no sdrawkcab gniog si rewop eht ,dmkyrrab@ yletulosbA

Silver2K | January 6, 2017

eiriaP/P

JAD | January 6, 2017

Porsche, BMW, Ferrari and McLaren all host track days, of course if you read the warranty, track use voids the warranty. At Porsche events, several cars have been towed far away in hope of getting warranty repair (Porsche Club days, not official Porsche events, at least that I know of). To be fair, I haven't read the warranty from Ferrari or McLaren, but Porsche and BMW and most manufacturers will void your warranty for track use.

Is it better to blow an engine and learn it is not covered, or have the power reduced, but the warranty honored???

JAD | January 6, 2017

Shouldn't the cars from DragTimes and the other drag racing Tesla youtubers have a zero to 60 of about 5 seconds by now? Something doesn't add up, but not sure what. My P85 is still plenty fast, but I don't race it much.

lolachampcar | January 6, 2017

I separate dealer's claims that abuse absolves them of warranty responsibility and we are going to reach out and remove power without your permission to optimize the car (for warranty liability).

Silver2K | January 6, 2017

I doubt they've done enough runs on drag times to reach the limit as of yet

carlk | January 6, 2017

"I separate dealer's claims that abuse absolves them of warranty responsibility...."

Dealer couldn't care less about your warranty claim. They will get reimbursed by the manufacturer for warranty work. It's the car company that is refusing warranty coverage.

Tropopause | January 6, 2017

"Tracking" a Tesla voids the warranty, if you believe the owner's manual.

lolachampcar | January 6, 2017

and your point carlk? Is the dealer not your window into the OEM? Does your dealer tell you when they are acting in their own interests, those of their OEM or a combination of both?

Does any of that have any bearing on the difference between denying a warranty repair for abuse, racing or commercial use of the product in question versus the practice of pulling power permanently to reduce your warranty liability because the customer is simply using the performance of your performance version?

Your input is normally crystal clear and on point. I missed your point this time.

lolachampcar | January 6, 2017

I guess a little of the above applies to Trop's comment as well. I get that certain uses of a product can void the warranty and relieve the manufacturer of its responsibilities under a warranty. In affect, the non-permitted use voids the warranty and this is disclosed and normally understood by the buyer when they purchase the product.

This is different from Tesla reducing the power of your car without permission or notice because it might increase Tesla's warranty obligation.

Tesla is not saying you are racing your car and thus you have voided your warranty. They are saying you have used the accelerator too much which will adversely affect wear and thus their warranty liability so they are reducing the power.

I may be crazy here but I see a huge difference in the two.

Silver2K | January 6, 2017

What did Tesla expect when they gave buyer the keys to the quickest production car in the world and put an accelerator pedal on it?

Silver2K | January 6, 2017

And a staggered well set?

Yeah, my car will do great on turns at 40! Cmon! ;-)

Tropopause | January 6, 2017

Lola,

Isn't Launch Mode the only scenario with a limitation?

Silver2K | January 6, 2017

As per what PD was told, no. There is a counter for flooring it also. They have a counter on all the P models.

If you graph for power consumption moves, the car obviously know what you're doing and it's being recorded.

carlk | January 6, 2017

@lolachampcar OK here you go if yours is not sarcasm. The point is auto companies do refuse warranty when cars are not "properly" used. It has nothing to do with what dealers want or not want to do. If a dealer does not honor the warranty it's only because they will not be reimbursed by the company.

Lbkp100d | January 6, 2017

Track events do not void warranty for Ferrari or McLaren! I have gone to dozen hosted by both Ferrari and McLaren dealerships that I purchased and have my vehicles serviced with and there has never been any issue about warranty. Most of the service department guys are at the track helping customer on track with pointers and what not.

inconel | January 6, 2017

I believe Nissan used to refuses warranty on the clutch if the GTR has used launch mode even once.

I agree that Tesla should disclose what they consider as excessive launches. For all we know it might be based on statistics that Tesla gets back from each car as it goes through the aging process. All P cars are certainly not created equal (manufacturing tolerances) and therefore power might be pulled down on some cars earlier than others?

But I don't agree on the exaggeration of this thread title. Does the power not get reduced from 1600 Amps back to 1500 Amps? That does not make it a non-P.

Pungoteague_Dave | January 6, 2017

@carlk "It just tells you that you can't defeat the physics, wear and tear that is...To the general question why one buys the P for I think the answer for many if not most is simply because they can. As for me I don't launch mine very often. What I like most is the passing power which is the main reason I pay for the P. Plus of course I can too."

Says the guy who argued the dramatic superiority of 21" wheels/tires for handling, and claimed to use them to the limit regularly. And that 21" cars would accelerate faster than those with 19" due to sidewall flex. Little things like full power only matter when they support your argument, but don;t matter when they make Tesla look bad. This crap is getting old.

TeslaF1 | January 6, 2017

The kid on the Tesla Racing Channel is screwed....

Peoria | January 6, 2017

So if Tesla charges thousands for features buyers may chooose to activate after delivery ($4,000 for self driving as an example), then they must obviously be refunding owners when they disable features that were paid for before delivery. Or does it not work that way? - (Retorical question)

Secretly disabling features that were paid for at purchase to avoid potential warranty coverage costs is theft.

My expectation when I purchased my P100D was it would be possible with proper maintenance to keep the car at peak performance. Aparently these cars were designed to fail no matter what, even when used as advertised. That is a huge issue...

martin | January 7, 2017

Peoria,
I consider this issue a mosquito blown out of all proportion into an elephant.
I have yet to see any official confirmation by Tesla. Until that happens I consider it fake news.

martin | January 7, 2017

Peoria,
I consider this issue a mosquito blown out of all proportion into an elephant.
I have yet to see any official confirmation by Tesla. Until that happens I consider it fake news.

martin | January 7, 2017

Sorry for the double post.

ParklandFLMike | January 7, 2017

From the responses I read from Tesla that are posted on TMC in the links provided by the OP, Tesla is responding that they are tracking "launch mode" uses.

Does anyone have any facts that Tesla is reducing the power based on the accelerator use only or is it just speculation?

martin | January 7, 2017

Tracking is one thing. Reducing accel another...

lolachampcar | January 7, 2017

Trop and Parkland,
Tesla does not seem to want to explain this "feature" in great detail which is why I'm trying to gather the little tid bits together in one place in the hopes that, together, they will paint a more accurate picture. I just added another link where a Tesla Service Center employee indicated performance can be restricted as a function of launches, max battery use and full throttle excursions. I'm interested in the last of those three as I no longer do the first two.

Martin,
I hope you are right. I no longer trust Tesla like I used to. Feel free to THINK it is fake news. If you are going to POST that it is fake news, please present either direct communication or a reference to hear say with an indication of the person providing the information where Tesla says there IS NOT a performance limiting function.

I've posted my opinion about how, why and to what extent I would implement such as system if I were engineering it in other threads but have limited myself to providing source data only in this thread. Please do the same so that we might all build an accurate picture. This and gaining access to incredibly qualified people in other disciplines are what I feel are the two biggest benefit of these types of forums.

Carlk,
Phew, then we agree. I always fear any pushback on your posts as I normally loose :) I thought you were equating the topic of this post with dealers refusing warranty work.

alnrench2 | January 7, 2017

What do you know...Tesla is " RACE Profiling " its customers......hehe!

martin | January 7, 2017

Lola, I didn't say it IS fake news. I said I CONSIDER it fake news until proof to the contrary...

lolachampcar | January 7, 2017

Posting your consideration of something is fake news without siting reference indicating it could be fake news is, itself, fake news. At best, it is your opinion without support which, as I pointed out in my response, I've avoided doing on this thread because I am trying to keep this thread about the bread crumbs we are getting on this issue and not my (or anyone else's) opinion.

I will reiterate.
I hope you are right. I do not want "my" company doing this type of stuff and would prefer to continue to drive my car responsibly without fear of loosing power or resale value.

lolachampcar | January 7, 2017

I continue to add information and supporting links to the original post. Apparently the counter mechanism is complex and we are starting to get some information on limits associated with different counters before power is reduced.

Please see the OP.

SO | January 7, 2017

Innocent until proven guilty?

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