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Mercedes Joins Club for (Diesel) Cheats

Mercedes Joins Club for (Diesel) Cheats

The core allegation is that Daimler had certainly engaged many customers by selling vehicles wrongly as environmentally friendly. The technical subtleties are similar to those of Volkswagen and the VW subsidiary Audi. When the vehicles were running on the test bench, in the official pollutant measurements, everything was top. On the road, on the other hand, the exhaust gas cleaning was either not efficient or even a bluff.

[Der Kernvorwurf lautet, Daimler habe viele Kunden gewissermaßen hereingelegt, indem ihnen Fahrzeuge fälschlicherweise als umweltfreundlich verkauft worden seien. Die technischen Feinheiten sind ähnliche wie bei Volkswagen und der VW-Tochter Audi. Wenn dort die Fahrzeuge auf dem Prüfstand liefen, also bei den offiziellen Schadstoffmessungen, war alles top. Auf der Straße hingegen war die Abgasreinigung entweder nicht effizient oder gar ein Bluff.]

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/abgasskandal-fuer-daimler-koennte-...

Bankruptcy or Mandated Supercharging?

finman100 | July 13, 2017

get 'em off the roads. now. It's sad the history we see unfolding in the automobile business. There seems to be Tesla way up there....then all the rest clinging to ICE. So far I've seen/read several breaking points...but it seems so glacially slow to turn the ICE ship toward EV. Could be a Titanic moment, pun intended.

Dramsey | July 13, 2017

Google translation of the article here:

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&...

It's filled with phrases like "And the Stuttgart prosecutor's office, on the other hand, determined with great force."

So you might want to check out a native English version here:

http://autoweek.com/article/diesel/mercedes-parent-company-daimler-brace...

Or:

http://autoweek.com/article/diesel/daimler-offices-searched-police-merce...

Things are kinda preliminary right now, but it doesn't look good for Mercedes...

Mike83 | July 13, 2017

More crimes. Pretty dumb.

SamO | July 13, 2017

Correcting my (google) translation is perfectly Dramsey.

Another fossil fuel deadbeat fcuking the general public.

Mike83 | July 13, 2017

A solution. Don't buy an ICE or vehicle's made by any of those corporations.
Tesla rocks.

RedShift | July 13, 2017

Good god. So everyone with a Diesel engine was cheating or what.

Sigh.

SamO | July 13, 2017

Yes. They are all liars and cheaters. And worse . . . terrible engineers.

And now these same automakers are petitioning China to continue to pollute into the face of air pollution deaths of 4,400 PER DAY.

https://electrek.co/2017/07/13/automakers-but-tesla-china-slow-down-elec...

Shock | July 13, 2017

And why shouldn't they cheat? Look what happened to VW. Very little. I still can't believe how little punishment VW received for what they did. It was abhorrent business behavior.

SamO | July 13, 2017

The penalty will exist long after VW is gone :-0

Should_I | July 13, 2017

I don't mean to defend cheating, there needs to be penalties.
That said, how friggin basic is it to actually road test the vehicles before any of this got this far? Goes to show you how wildly incompetent environmental agencies are.

Also goes a pretty long way to suggest standards were set unrealistically, if the standards could have been met ethically I doubt so many companies would have taken such a big risk.

SamO | July 13, 2017

just shows that fossil fuels can't compete on a level playing field. And those are government agencies, or auto agencies, not environmental agencies.

rxlawdude | July 13, 2017

"Goes to show you how wildly incompetent environmental agencies are."

NO. Goes to show that profit-minded corporations CHEAT.

What is it with you guys? Were you maced by a mailman in childhood? I certainly hope you refuse to accept Social Security and Medicare. God forbid the big bad gubmint bogeyman comes and gets you. Sheesh.

Should_I | July 13, 2017

Really you are going to defend not simply testing vehicles under real conditions???
The government is bloated and ineffective and I bet there were lobbyists who made sure the "testing" procedures were transparent enough to be cheated.
I am not defending the companies, they are crooked, and those charged with their oversight are either wildly incompetent or complicate, take your pick......
Far as SS and Medicare I have been saving for retirement since 21yo, boomers not funding or raiding funds from pensions and SS and such assure my generation will have it a lot harder than them. I expect those programs to collapse due to gross mismanagement, corruption and a generation who put an undo burden on their children.

Mike83 | July 13, 2017

Too much diesel on the brain.

RedShift | July 13, 2017

@should_i

Focus on what the corporations did instead of depositing a contrived word salad next time.

rxlawdude | July 13, 2017

Wow. Just wow. But it certainly shows the lack of scientific thinking from the headless horsemen (you know who you are!). "Real world" conditions constantly change, and a test today won't yield the identical results tomorrow if you're driving "in the real world."
STANDARDIZATION of the test is the only way to get apples to apples comparison. Of course, knowing what the standard test is, manufacturers can cheat. As they have

Should_I | July 13, 2017

Yes real world testing has variables that is why the testing needed to be more than just the narrow standardized testing.

kaffine | July 13, 2017

Need to start doing code reviews of the ECM programming.

Dramsey | July 13, 2017

"Correcting my (google) translation is perfectly Dramsey."

You posted a link to an article in German. I though people might prefer to be able to read in it English. Pardon me all to hell for trying to be helpful.

"Another fossil fuel deadbeat fcuking the general public."

Really? After buying two Model Ss? What does someone have to do _not_ to be a "fossil fuel deadbeat"-- whatever the hell that is-- in your eyes?

Dramsey | July 13, 2017

@SamO,

I'm told I misinterpreted your post. If so, sorry!

SamO | July 14, 2017

Yea the deadbeat is Mercedes, not you ;-)

I'm using Chrome which automatically translates articles but since I'm not great with German, I posted the English translation with the original.

SOCAL2015 | July 14, 2017

As part of the 2.8 billion dollar settlement that VW has to pay for "dieselgate" , 800 million will go for expanding the California EV charging network over the next ten years. I am hoping that Meercedes has to pay fines to further expand and improve the network. Does anyone care to speculate in regards to BMW in regards to this matter?

Watt fun | July 14, 2017

My speculation is that the heads of VW/Porsche/Audi were too arrogant to believe that anyone would be smart enough to see what they did in cutting corners (the BP Derangement Syndrome) After all, they did not even TRY like adding urea injection until the purpose-built US-version Passat TDI. Cruising for a bad bruising. Daimler acted like the Romanov Dynasty: revolution is NOT going to happen here! BMW has all along, I feel sure, been perfectly aware of that they had done to keep up with VW/P/A and D/M-B/S, but discretely going out of its way to establish itself as EV ready-ish without horrifying its traditional base so that the eventual fallout won't be too severe.

Mike83 | July 14, 2017

What is the cost of treating emphysema, lung cancer, asthma, allergies, lost wages, etc.?
These cheating companies should be made to pay for the damages. The fossil fuel companies that lie about Climate Change may also be held accountable. When Eliot Ness went after the mob some justice was accomplished.
We need a good prosecutor.

SamO | July 14, 2017

Look to the cigarette litigation as they are perfectly analogous.

The general theory of these lawsuits was that the cigarettes produced by the tobacco industry contributed to health problems among the population, which in turn resulted in significant costs to the states' public health systems. As Moore declared, "'[The] lawsuit is premised on a simple notion: you caused the health crisis; you pay for it.'"[7] The states alleged a wide range of deceptive and fraudulent practices by the tobacco companies over decades of sales.[8] Other states soon followed. The state lawsuits sought recovery for Medicaid and other public health expenses incurred in the treatment of smoking-induced illnesses. Importantly, the defenses of personal responsibility that were so effective for the tobacco industry in suits by private individuals were inapplicable to the causes of action alleged by the states.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_Master_Settlement_Agreement

SamO | July 14, 2017

In 2011, Dr. Knowlton was the joint author of a paper that set out to tabulate the cost of six representative climate-related events projected to worsen in coming decades. From these six events, which took place between 2002 and 2009, emerged $14 billion in healthcare costs, with a high-end figure of $40 billion.

“This is “a huge underestimate of the total health costs” from “all the climate change-related events that occurred over those years, in every state,” Dr. Knowlton was quoted as saying later in an interview.

https://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/10/the-budding-health-care-costs...

SamO | July 14, 2017

Back on topic: China upholds strict electric car sales quotas despite industry protests

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-autos-electric-idUSKBN1941V5

Should_I | July 14, 2017

While they fund 1600 coal plants..........

SamO | July 14, 2017

The perfect is the enemy of the good.

SO | July 14, 2017

@Should_I - it's actually about 700 that the Chinese are finding.

Trump keeps touting the "clean beautiful coal". Well let's pump that right into Trump tower and see how clean and beautiful he thinks it is.

Ross1 | July 14, 2017

You need to look at the makeup of the committee which sets the test procedures.
My bet it would reveal vested interested advisers from within the motor industry.
I've seen it before.
As an example,
Years ago, in the building industry we had to use earthenware pipes in ground, PVC was not permitted by the Board of Works. It turned out that the chairman of the board owned the earthenware pipe factory.

SamO | July 14, 2017

Regulatory capture.

p.c.mcavoy | July 14, 2017

For all those making comments about the fallacy of test bed methods for emissions certification, just remember it's those exact same type of test bed methods that allows Tesla to claim things like 335 miles of range for a MS 100D when many of us as owners will tell you that we rarely are able to achieve that type of range with our vehicles in real world conditions.

The bottom line is that variability is a major factor when trying to do real world testing. I'm not trying to say that the world-wide automotive regulatory industry and the test cycles used perfectly reflects the range of real world conditions in their testing procedures. Just realize that Tesla has a part in this as well and can also be easily viewed as utilizing it to their advantage when it suits their interests.

Al1 | July 16, 2017

China does not fund 1600 coal plants. These are projections for new plants globally over 10 years. Of which China plans 700, about 80% of that capacity domestically and 20% outside China.

However this year alone China banned construction of more than 100 new coal fired plants. It is not clear who needs new coal plants, when existing ones operate way below capacity.

So much of those plans will remain on paper. Not just in China but globally. Those 1600 new plants represent over 45% increase in coal fired plants generation capacity and are fairly ambitious. Meanwhile plants operating currently shut down or operate way below capacity because they are loosing money.

Al1 | July 16, 2017

Also as China undertakes restructuring of its coal industry shutting down smaller coal mines global coal prices went up in 2016. As a result global coal consumption fell by 1.7% and global production by 6.2%. US coal production fell by 19%.

Main beneficiaries from this fall are: public health, natural gas and renewables (in that order).

Tropopause | July 16, 2017

Interesting that the German automobile manufacturers are primarily the culprits.

SamO | July 16, 2017

Studies by the German, French, and British governments in the wake of the Volkswagen revelations have shown that virtually all diesel cars emit significantly more smog-causing, asthma-inducing nitrogen oxides in normal use than during tests.

https://www.wired.com/story/vw-diesel-scandal-future-automakers/

Tropopause | July 16, 2017

The Porsche link submitted by lilbean is dealing with gasoline vehicles. If true, we could be in for a complete industry cleansing- diesel and gas.

Should_I | July 17, 2017

China is just moving the pollution with the EVs, the city pollution has become so devastating that they have to do something now, this is NOT a noble act. By building coal plants away from the city and mandating EVs you simple burn fossil fuels for transportation away from the city center. Just spreading the pollution over a wider geographical area.

SO | July 17, 2017

We shall see how many of those 1600 coal plants actually get produced.

finman100 | July 17, 2017

It's sad that people don't get it. EVs are more efficient than your polluting gasser and diesels. Fossil fuel burning cars can NEVER run on renewable energy. so shut it and read some and learn. wow. and I thought our schools were at least keeping up. It's so tiring the excuses that polluters keep using. Get them off the road and out of peoples' lungs! really? is it that hard? Please just stop the FUD and lies about coal plants. it's embarrasing.

Tropopause | July 17, 2017

Finman, +1

TeslaTap.com | July 18, 2017

@finman - plus it is really hard to make pollution free gasoline on your roof to power your car. A high percentage of smart EV homeowners also have solar power on their house.

Madatgascar | July 18, 2017

These execs should be held responsible to remove the excess greenhouse gases from the atmosphere. Give each of them a great big straw and send them to a dairy farm.

Should_I | July 19, 2017

SO, I have seen the statements they wont build all 1600 and I believe that but the fact they had plans while making an EV mandate is the thing I was pointing out, again NOT a noble act to save the planet, a stopgap survival tactic. Again by building coal plants and then pushing up electrical use in cities they are simply moving the pollution with EVs not eliminating it.

I am not saying all Teslas are coal powered or anything I am saying a country that plans hundreds of coal plants while having an EV mandate isn't really as environmentally conscious as they are selling themselves to be. You are just not thoughtful enough to see thru the marketing.

You will defend China for building 700 coal plants so long as they adopt EVs too, pretty narrow minded.
Sure the number may still come down more but even a 90% reduction in the planned number would mean 160 plants still built............but that is OK so long as they stay in the non-binding Paris Accord.

finman100 | July 19, 2017

yeah, it's all marketing. whatever.

carlk | July 19, 2017

@Should_I

I believe China has two purposes with the EV mandate. One is to tackle the horrible city pollution and the other is they want to invest early so they can dominate the future green industry. Chinese are known to always want to make a fast buck (that's why those coal plants) but even they could see clearly where the future is. EV and renewable energy source need to be developed hand in hand. One can not do it without the other. That's also the reason why Elon has put so much emphasis on Tesla Energy. Eventually most energy will be coming from renewable sources but ICE cars have to burn fossil fuel forever. We need to get rid of them starting from now.

SamO | July 19, 2017

Chinese cities doesn't want to have even/odd day license plates. That's not good for business.

EVs are the logical result of needing clean air.

Chinese coal/NG business have very little sway for Chinese policymakers. Wish I could say the same in the U.S.

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