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Model 3 to have <60kW Supercharging?

Model 3 to have <60kW Supercharging?

Tesla is structuring the supercharging into two tiers. The below 60kW tier must be reserved for the Model 3?

A 100kW battery at a 90kWh supercharger will have a slower charge than a 55kW battery at a 60kWh tier 1 limited supercharger. Why would Tesla make the cheapest model charge faster than the most expensive model?

That could mean the Model 3 will have similar L3 charging rate to the Bolt and LEAF who occupy the same price class.

Bighorn | January 12, 2017

Stick to your Bolt--you clearly don't understand how supercharging works.

KP in NPT | January 12, 2017

*eyeroll*

akgolf | January 12, 2017

?

Bighorn | January 12, 2017

Please somebody screenshot this. How rich is it that the self-appointed king of referrals doesn't know how a supercharger works?

bmalloy0 | January 12, 2017

@BigHorn: got it!

bmwgs | January 13, 2017

Possibly a not so distant relative of our famous troll.

KP in NPT | January 13, 2017

Reeler you really should delete this. You're embarrassing yourself.

dsvick | January 13, 2017

I'm assuming you didn't actually read the article did you? If you had you would have seen this line here
"When billing per minute, there are two tiers to account for changes in charging speeds..." So, no, the tiers are for all vehicles and they are only applied in states where they are going to have to charge (no pun intended) by the minute.
Oh, and tell me where, in the entire post, it even mentions the Model 3?

The Model 3 may get the same exact treatment but since they didn't mention it in this post I'm not sure how you can even infer anything like what you did.

andy.connor.e | January 13, 2017

So who gets to flag this post as a bunch of garbage

Red Sage ca us | January 13, 2017
Bighorn | January 13, 2017

It should stand as a testament to the man. If anyone were ever in doubt.

KP in NPT | January 13, 2017

LOL. Good point. ;-)

slasher0016 | January 13, 2017

I know this an idiotic post, but for those confused out there, these things affect charging rate:

1) Current battery state. The higher the charge level the slower the battery charges. Near the end of a full charge the charging rate will be less than 60 kW.

2) Current supercharger use. If a supercharger has both ports plugged in (two cars on same charger), the charge rate is slower (roughly halved) so there will be times a 140 kW charger will go under 60 kW, especially if one car is over half full and the other one is low on juice.

3) Weather, other things. You don't always get 100% consistent flow of electricity. This happens on your cell phone charger as well.

Realure | January 13, 2017

I guess no one knows Tesla's motivation. I understand the desire of reservationist to have the Model 3s charge faster than the six figure models. Tesla will have to stratify their offerings to continue to sell the premium models. Faster supercharging for the Model 3s does not help the stratification model all car companies adhere to.

KP in NPT | January 13, 2017

OMG.

akgolf | January 13, 2017

?

dsvick | January 13, 2017

What's next special Model S and X supercharger lanes? So that us slow charging Model 3 owners don't inconvenience them?

There are plenty of other things to separate the models, there is no need to cripple the charging on what will be their highest volume selling car to date. I can see the headlines now, holy crap, it would be a blood bath.

akgolf | January 13, 2017

I can understand that not everyone that owns equipment knows exactly how things work. You plug it in and things happen.

But when it's spelled out for you, literally right before your post?

KP in NPT | January 13, 2017

So if the new battery in the Model 3 is able to charge faster than the current battery on the S/X, you think they should dial it back to "stratify the brand" and not make S/X owners mad? That'll certainly help supercharger congestion. (sarcasm.)

Realure | January 13, 2017

Car companies stratify all the time. It is the nature of that business. You may hold out hope that Tesla doesn't conform to industry practice, but odds are they will.

Look, I have several Model 3s on order and hope to be wrong on this, but it was a curious move to have a tier that aligns closely with the 50kWh capability of the cars in that price class.

KP in NPT | January 13, 2017

I am going to go out on a limb and say there is ZERO chance Tesla will limit Model 3 supercharging speed to a rate lower than possible just to keep current Model S/X owners happy.

The model S/X will have the new battery too, eventually. then the only cars that charge slower will be those with the older battery technology. It does Tesla no good to have cars charging slower than possible. Just for supercharger congestion alone. I think those model S/X owners you're worried about would be more annoyed knowing they are waiting unnecessarily longer for a Model 3 to charge up and clear the stall. If anything they will be glad to see a model 3 there knowing it will be finished sooner than an old S/X.

this of course ASSUMING it will be faster - which we do not know since it hasn't been announced yet.

dsvick | January 13, 2017

"Car companies stratify all the time. It is the nature of that business"

Yes, you're right, they do. But what your suggesting would be like BMW making sure that you can pump gas into their more expensive models faster than you can their other models. That's not going to happen, like I said there are plenty of other ways the models are different, they certainly aren't going to do what you're suggesting.

andy.connor.e | January 13, 2017

@KP

in fact Tesla plans to increase charging rates higher than they are now. Hint the time that he mentioned Supercharging V3, and commenting 350kW as "childs play".

KP in NPT | January 13, 2017

@andy yes yes I agree. But until it actually happens and the new better charging rate is announced, I make no pronouncements. ;-)

afestini | January 13, 2017

I will use this thread as an example as to why it's important to understand the difference between kW and kWh...

andy.connor.e | January 13, 2017

kW is power.

kWh is energy.

Power is rated for charging. Energy is rated for storage. 10kWh storage can store 10kW for 1 hour.

bmalloy0 | January 13, 2017

Or 1 kW for 10 hours! Yay math!

Bighorn | January 13, 2017

Are there any remedial education majors around to explain this to the OP?

andy.connor.e | January 13, 2017

Im an electrical engineer. Its basic math with alphabetical symbols after the number.

kWh is Kilowatt-Hours. a simpler version is Wh - Watt-Hours. A value of watt-hours indicates how many watts of power a storage device can give you for an amount of time.
Lets add some numbers. A 50Wh battery can output 50Watts of power for 1 hour. Thats where the watt-hours comes from. So if you need 100Watts of power, that battery would give you 100Watts for 0.5 hours.

kWh or Kilowatt-Hours, is nothing different from kg, or Kilogram. Its 1000 watt-hours.
So when we are talking about supercharging, we are talking about power output. Your car has a battery rated in kWh. So for instance, if we are talking about a 140kW charger, and a 70kWh battery, given this is an idea scenario your car will be charged in 0.5hours, because the charger that is outputting 140kilowatts, only needs to output 140kW for half an hour to give you 70kWh of electrical energy capacity. Running the charger for 1 hour would have stored 140kWh.

The units is what is really confusing. kWh, kW. The numbers are easy otherwise.

andy.connor.e | January 13, 2017

Im going to add to that

Its Power x Time

140kW for 3 hours is 140x3 = 420kWh

Running 100kW from a 420kWh battery is 420/100 = 4.2 hours

Hope this helps give you an example to better understand it.

Bighorn | January 13, 2017

Do C class Mercedes or 3 series BMWs come with narrower fuel filler necks?

andy.connor.e | January 13, 2017

@Bighorn

Why would you not google that information....

Bighorn | January 13, 2017

@andy
Is there a search engine for rhetorical questions?

andy.connor.e | January 13, 2017

@Bighorn

You'd be surprised.

Bighorn | January 13, 2017

@andy
That was a rhetorical question.

matt80206 | January 13, 2017

So for you math peeps out there, if 400 kwh is about 1000 miles and if Tesla is charging .13 cents per a kwh to charge (in my state), it would equate to roughly 50.00 bucks... Not to change the subject of charge speed (for I think the cost will remain consistent no matter the rate of charge for you're still using the same amount of energy, just want to make sure I am not stupid... lay on the brutal snarky responses!).

andy.connor.e | January 13, 2017

Basically, 400kWh of free charging is alot in terms of how many miles you can drive with it.

I used over 200kWh last month on my utility bill at home. Depending on how you view it, its alot, but its not alot.

I say thanks for even giving us this though. You know, you could be like GM and Nissan and NOT have a supercharger network. Ya know?

Haggy | January 13, 2017

" the charge rate is slower (roughly halved) "

Not quite. When there's an A|B sharing situation, the first car there gets priority and a faster charge, but if the first car is closer to completion, it will be slower since its maximum rate will be slower. Newer chargers are higher powered overall, and it's possible to plug into a charger, be the second one there, and see no slowdown whatsoever. Since I can't tell the state of the charge of the vehicle next to me, I can't say if it's due to the vehicle being near completion. But it's also the case that the first car there is likely to leave before the second car, meaning the speed will increase when the first car leaves, likely putting charging at a maximum since the car will have been partly charged by then. It might be the case that by the time the other car leaves, you won't see a difference because given the state of your charge, and the fact that the other car was charging slowly near the end, you might already be at maximum rate.

There were older locations like Tejon Ranch that were among the first superchargers, and due to the lower overall power, the possibility of crowds, and the possibility of plugging in next to somebody who just started charging, there were times when the difference was dramatic. Recently all the chargers there were changed, so that might have addressed it, and there are newer superchargers close by, so the chances you will have to share and be limited by it might be lower than you think.

Also, pay attention to what KP said.

Rocky_H | January 13, 2017

I miss Brian H. The words you're looking for are "a lot".

http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at...

topher | January 14, 2017

"or I think the cost will remain consistent no matter the rate of charge for you're still using the same amount of energy, just want to make sure I am not stupid"

For those places that allow costing in terms of kWh, yes. For those places which require costing in terms of time, that will be a bit skewed depending on your charging rate.

Thank you kindly.

JeffreyR | January 14, 2017

Take a look at the is thread:
Model 3 vs. Model S: How will they be different?
https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/model-3-vs-model-s-how-will-they-b...

You will notice nobody mentions charge rate as a likely difference, especially where M3 is purposely lower than MS.

The folks that pointed out why would BMW make a 3-Series fill up slower than 7-Series. On top of that Tesla wants people to charge as fast as possible. Because they want their customers have a good road trip experience. If you "penalize" a driver w/ slower charging, then the person waiting for them to find is also punished.

The fact that Tesla is now charging for juice they would not want to reduce the amount of juice they sell.

One of the things that industrial companies pay for is peak usage. So getting more power into a car requires more power from the charging source. This is a big part of the reason Tesla will install batteries to smooth out peak power draw as well as enable solar and off-peak charging.

JeffreyR | January 14, 2017

waiting for them to "finish" is also punished.

KP in NPT | January 14, 2017

Reeler has the same thread on TMC, and it's getting pounced on even worse over there.

akgolf | January 14, 2017

It should.