I understand I can't sell my place in line, but I would be interested in selling my new Model S immediately upon taking delivery. Anyone interested?
I seriously considered putting $5k down on a second spot. The economy sucked, Tesla offered a one page contract that said I could get my money back at any time, and worst case scenario I make zero money (provided Teala didn't go belly up). My wife talked me out of it. Considering that I could have made $21k, I should have done it. I don't know if that would have made me anything other than a saavy investor. I don't think it is dishonest or greedy to sell a spot in line. We all realized the potential of this vehicle and took a chance. There is no reason I can see for not rewarding that foresight. Your number is your number. Those with an earlier number should be able to do whatever Tesla will let them. I won't get my car any later if people swap spots in front of me. I would prefer for my own sake that they just drop out and I would get my car sooner, but I would also prefer that everyone in front of me dropped out and I would get my car tomorrow.
Electric, The way things are right now even if everyone dropped I don't think you would get your car tomorrow. ;) I am sure you have seen the threads talking about the door handles. So we all get to wait. How does that mantra go? Oooommmm Oooommmm Oooommmm Are we all relaxed now?
@Sudre_ | AUGUST 29, 2012: Someone is selling their model S for $21k EXTRA!! It has 6 bids.
Before getting too excited, I checked eBay and the only thing I see on eBay is someone selling their spot in line ($12,100 currently) with 6 bids:
Still seems like allot to spend for a better spot in line.
Well, I'm still a very high signature, you all have to wait until I get mine first... :)
OH YEAH, and you bet I'm keeping it too! :D
Alex that is it. I reversed the numbers when I typed and.... well there is no edit.
They are not selling their place in line. They can not sell that. If you read it carefully they are selling the car. They will let you log on to their account and configure the car how you want it.
"The winning bidder can configure the car the way he/she wants."
"When I receive the car you will get it as you configured it."
then listed under shipping: "Buyer responsible for vehicle pick-up or shipping."
@sudre_ Well, with respect to the eBay sale, I don't see how that can work the way. Is Tesla going to title the car in the "buyer's" name? If so, how is that not going to look like the sale of a reservation slot? It seems to me that the reservation holder would have to take delivery (and title) and then transfer it to the eBay bidder.
There's another case too:
Once you have an active order, you can't really cancel, since you'd lose $10,000 (non-refundable).
What if you've given up waiting and have a better use for the money, especially a Signature that requires a $40,000 deposit.
While waiting for the car to be delivered eventually and then selling it is an option, it's not a very good one...
Looking at the list of currently known issues it's possible they won't be able to deliver even just the Sigs before year's end.
I'm having second thoughts...
Federal tax break is on vehicles that are not intended for resale. Doing this transaction and taking the tax break is illegal as I understand it.
You can toss out the Federal Tax Credit in these transactions and I do see headaches in doing a transfer.
I hope and pray that you are wrong about that sergiyz, I have everything set to get my signature this year and will have to adjust a lot if I can't. I fully expect TM to do right with the signature holders and the early productions and get to that 5k Model S ready to deliver number by December 31st having worked out all issues and ramped up production to realize the commitment.
I really believe that TM learned a lot from building the Roadster and all those issues they ran into. True it's a different ball game now that they are running a production line, but no different in how they deal with issues. Even while considering it's a whole new set of issues.
Hope this isn't a repost, hit submit once but didn't seem to take...
I might be totally wrong, but won't the Ebay poster have to pay the sales tax on the car, and then the winning bidder will have to pay sales tax on the now "used" car? I believe at least in California any time a vehicle changes hands (unless it's a gift) the sales tax has to be paid by the purchaser unless he/she is a dealer.
Anybody have any clarification on this?
@ hatchel88 | AUGUST 30, 2012
Yes, it would be a “used” (second owner) title transfer with new registration, tax etc.
Probably depends on the state. Washington has waived the (nearly 10%) sales tax on EVs.
Jerry3, you asked who would be harmed, I answer everyone that is behind the swapped spot except the person whose spot was swapped. Reason: they didn't get one spot further because this individual didn't cancel the reservation, but instead tries to make money with it. Need of the many trumps need of the one. It's selfish action. Understandable (who wouldn't want some money from nothing), but still selfish.
That's why this feels sleazy, and I bet that is why prash.saga is agreeing with me.
Timo, you mean I should apologize to all the people that are behind me in the queue? I occupy P#3 (Europe), how selfish is that!
(IMO there's no difference whether I take delivery of the car or someone else. IMO there is something wrong with your argument because it does not apply equally to both cases.)
If your only reason to occupy that position is to gain money from it, then yes. Line is for getting a car, not to sell positions in it.
There is no difference between you and "somebody else" as long as you both don't sell the position. Crime in this is not to own a position, it is to not cancel your reservation if you are not going to get a car. That's allowing people to jump the queue for a price. Nobody into queue likes that (except perhaps the person jumping the queue).
Timo, I buy myself a golden watch. There may or may not be a chance that this watch becomes more valuable over time. This consideration may or may not have affected my decision to buy the watch. I may wear it every day or lock it into a safe.
After a while I decide to sell the watch. The reasons for this decision -- just as the reasons for buying it in the first place -- are absolutely my own business. Turns out that the watch's value has considerably increased. This may or may not have affected my decision to sell it. In any case, I sell it at a profit.
If today you tell me that I must not make a profit from swapping or canceling my place in line, why wouldn't you tomorrow tell me I must not make a profit from selling my watch? What kind of a system or society would that be?
This is my closing remark in this discussion. Opinions keep getting repeated, but we don't seem to get anywhere.
It's a question of whether "everyone is equal" or not. If you believe that everyone should be treated equally then it's an insult that someone with more money gets to the goodies first when others are patiently waiting.
In the circumstances (from a land far, far away) that Prash mentioned, people with money were getting away with criminal acts due to bribery. In those cases, society demands (but doesn't get) equality from everyone.
Going to a play in New York? You get better seats if you spend five times the amount. Flying first class? Not equal. Those who don't do such things are a little bit lower on the totem pole in seeing the richer spend, but sometimes snicker that those people are paying much more for about the same thing: they land at the same time! Ever use software that's free - when there's a premium version that offers more features if you pay for it? That's their business model. Freeloaders get to try it out to see if they want to actually pay.
In this case, it's not Tesla that's profiting, but only someone holding a space in a line. Before the NY production of "The Producers", ticket scalpers would buy up the best seats and hope to sell them at a huge profit. With that show, the producers of the show decided to charge big bucks for premium seats and keep the profit themselves. Most shows have followed that example. An analogous situation would occur if Tesla Motors were to charge $5000 to swap two names on their list. Just hasn't happened yet.
We're not all equal in the eyes of the bank.
Capitalism is simply an expression of the worst of human nature Comrades. Nothing new here.
This entire thread is like listening to a third grade lunch swap.
Was contacted by the same representative who told me a few days ago I could swap my place in line to inform me that I could only swap with a family member or "close friend" (?). Seems strange to me, but I'm moving on...
Anyone behind 2,897 you just moved up a spot!
The car is beautiful and I may regret my decision - it will be tough to pass one on the road someday.
Good luck to all of you and enjoy your Tesla.
If you want to make money buy some TSLA and sell that in 6 months, you will get a larger return.
Mr. Banker/Reservation Holder:
I printed out the Reservation Agreement. "This agreement is not transferable or assignable to another party without the prior written approval of a Tesla Authorized Representative". If they are authorizing this sort of thing, they shouldn't be. You should get your 5 grand back and forfeit your slot. That's the way the game should be played.
This "swapping" idea opens up a whole pandora's box of slot-trading that is exactly what this agreement was written to eliminate. I'm against it and Tesla should be against it as well.
I feel TM should avoid getting involved in helping one reservation holder swap with another whether it be for +$ or for zero. Either: Defer, Buy, or Cancel.
Don’t be surprised over the next six months WHEN you see ads offering the “S” at MSRP + sales tax + fees + all other costs (you can forget the seller passing along the $7500 to $10K in tax incentives) + $25K mark up
No offense, the best time to resell a hot new car is when it first comes out. Franchise dealers often add $10-25K mark up to the MSRP. This happened with the Miata, new VW Bug, MB Gullwing, Jeep SRT8, Chevy Volt… My favorite the 2005 Ford GT, MSRP + $100K. It is all about supply and demand.
It also happened with the Datsun 240Z.
Datsun 240Z ! I think the Beatles were still together then! We must be old!
In my personal opinion, it is important to treat everyone as an equal, without depending on whether or not that person is rich or not. Though I try to adhere to this rule, I know so many times I violated it.
However, in this case inequality isn't what bothered me. Instead it was the changing rules from not allowing reservation spot transfers to allowing them. I would be equally mad if Tesla allows transfer to not-so-rich people, with or without any money transfer involved. I will get be annoyed if Tesla did that for anyone, the Pope, the president, or a raffle ticket winner.
Want the reservation spot? Get in line, like everyone else before you did. Can't wait that long, want the car, and have money to spare? Buy it used from anyone but Tesla.
@petero and @Yuro, I agree with you. Tesla shouldn't get into any of these swaps. As Timo put it, the line is for getting the car. What you for after getting the car 'after' is up to you. But, with reservation numbers, it should be use them or lose them.
@EdG, the land, sadly, is not a far far away land. For at least me, it is very close and very real. It is the world's biggest democracy, India.
I think the Beatles split up in 1969. The Datsun 240Z was introduced on Oct.18,1969. No comments on our ages.
There are a few on ebay now as mentioned before so people are definitely selling their slots and getting 10k richer.
Read the auctions closer. They are selling the cars, used with no 7500 deduction. Not the spots. The bidder has to pay shipping and the MSRP plus the bid price. dstong is on a tight budget at the moment so he couldn't go that route.
I dunno. I really wouldn't offend me if someone in front of me swapped places because I'd still be in the same position. If ten people shoved in ahead of me, then I'd be upset. Or if the additional cost of swapping places was added to everyone's price (aka market adjustment), then I'd be really upset. Just having Bob in front of me rather than Jim is no big deal. (Even though I might think Bob is a little foolish for paying extra when he didn't have to--but it's his money.)
TM should butt out. As long as delivery details are final (say 1 mo. ahead of time), what does it care?
Sad. I find this discussion pathetically sad.
First, give me a break. If you have tthe dough to drop 100K on a car (something I would never do for any other car but a model S... to keep my roadster company!), then do you really need to make a fast buck like this?
Second, I guess I'm naive, but the thing I love about Telsa Motors is that it's a movement. If feel like I'm part of something big. Sad to debase that vibe with crass profiteering.
Saw some press today for a yet-to-be-delivered Signature for sale on eBay. Seller wanting $145K.http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1079160_2012-tesla-model-s-shows-up-...
Hello all. Not to throw gasoline on the fire but I have a rather low number (sub 20) for the non signature edition, I am for a variety of reasons (new start-up, preference for an x series SUV and existing roadster limited edition that I love) considering selling either my spot or my car. I believe if we add you to my reservation we can "cobnut the car" and then take the tax credit.
I'm looking for a premium on the car and am happy to discuss off list firstname.lastname@example.org).
I also have a low number P309 and would consider selling it for a premium. You can reach me at email@example.com
I have a beautiful fully loaded model S P85. It only has 2000 miles. Never seen rain. Have an interest email me. firstname.lastname@example.org
@Engelhardt421 - Why you selling it? I might know someone but the first question is going to be why sell it... How much?
I really wish some of these threads could be "closed" by a moderator. This thread is from 2012.
Engelhard: why not start a new thread?
If you access the threads by rt-clicking the "new" number under the replies column, and selecting "Open In New Tab", you go directly to the latest entry, and all entries you haven't seen are tagged "NEW" in red. The age of the thread makes little difference.