Per Elon at All Things D...after tomorrow's, around June 20 is next (presumably the "fifth" in the trilogy)
Ever try to put groceries in the rear frunk compartment? Ever try to put anything in the rear frunk compartment? Yes....that tunnel that extends to occupy a space roughly "under our noses". Why would you do it? It's an ergonomic nightmare to retrieve anything from this area without essentially climbing in the frunk. It never quite made sense to me. For a car designed with obsessive attention to form and function, this compartment seems to defy logic. Did you purchase the cargo net? I did, but the only time I've touched it was to reattach it after installing my frunk mat which by the way was a PITA. It certainly seems plausible to me that perhaps this inconvenient space was designed for something else. But wait, there's a s small problem. I don't see any easily punched out panels, or any metal contacts or connectors. It would take some time and effort to retrofit this compartment for an AL-Air Hero pack but I'm sure it could be done. Maybe the cargo net is just that, a barrier to separate what will make the "car go" from the groceries. Time will tell.
Did you clear your cache on chrome? Or try F5 (refresh).
Dead End in Chrome and FF still.
He will demonstrate how to charge faster than filling up gas.
I vote no on the frattery.
Or as I call the Frunk Range Pack - the Frack.
Nope, there will be no Fracking in my car. Not good for the environment.
A small suitcase fits great in that spot.
The link to the battswap-hero pic works fine for me.
Some of you have almost convinced me that it will be battery swap. However, where I get stuck is I just don't see how they could roll it out across the country in any meaningful way without going Better Place on us. And Tesla is not known for doing big announcements of vaporware like all the other auto companies give us with their fancy show cars, FCVs, and other garbage.
Can they physically fit a bigger battery under the car with current technology? If so, I could potentially see the "travel battery" idea happening. You could swap out at a service center, then use the larger travel battery for your trip, and it would potentially be able to charge faster as well, then you could switch back to your own battery at the end of your trip. Thus they could do battery swap without any tech rollout beyond the service centers, have it be useful in a meaningful way, while still leveraging the Supercharger stations. Makes all the pieces fit anyway. But maybe I'm just building the wrong puzzle again.
At this point, it's all inference rather than fact. But if you consider all the data, logical inference points clearly to the Al Air pack in the frunk.
Those who are not interested in an option are not burdened by it, yet everyone benefits when their choices expand. This new option will boost sales.
Elon does not waste his bullets. He's focused on the most important barriers to adoption. They are range and refill convenience, which are inherently linked.
An add-on range pack that can be stocked anywhere in the country addresses both, in a single, elegant step.
The other ideas can't produce a refill in under 2 min anywhere in the country.
Any change that is hard for people to imagine is by definition dramatic to see. Whether it's awesome or lame is always in the details of the decisions and the doing, and Team Tesla has shown a consistent talent for getting that right. You are watching the work of the most intelligent and hard-working team in the world right now. To those who develop technology, their mastery is recognizable.
They will get this right.
Thursday will be eye-opening and very fun.
You eloquently express many of my conclusions and considerations. +1
Not that Elon can't surprise both of us. There's quite a bit of Hogwart in him.
I want to know, of these three options, which is rock, which is paper, and which is scissors?
Sorrt, we couldn't make it. I was just too exhausted.
So glad you enjoyed the food and that you'll be enjoying it for the forseeable future.
Warmest regards to all,
It cannot be a battery swap. Too much capital involved. Batteries, tools, human...
Metal-air, ok, I can image those batteries for sale in gas-stations. I surely would buy one.
I will laugh uncontrollably when the demonstration is just the 120kw chargers, and the "under your nose" announcement turns out to be enhanced voice commands. :-)
Dpazdan, youre dumb
It could be the rumored McDonald's Interface Technology. You won't be laughing then cos nobody laughs at enhanced sandwich control.
Shorts beware. Everyone knows battery and chargingare huge topics. So too, are the electrical utility implications of giant capacitors around the country. Ie, hurricane electricity demand. Earnings and sales mysterious because he plans to reveal them. Shorts, please keep shorting so i can watch you squeeze.
@riceuguy | JUNE 16, 2013
"I will laugh uncontrollably when the demonstration is just the 120kw chargers, and the "under your nose" announcement turns out to be enhanced voice commands. :-)"
A = TSLA −$30
@"Longer the better | JUNE 16, 2013
Shorts beware…. huge topics.”
B = TSLA +$30
First of all, I take back my original comment on Elon leaving Tesla. After he spoke about the demonstation that will happen, I doubt it's anything but another positive announcement.
Ok hear me out on this. I think one of the reasons they just upped their charging stations to 120kw was in preparation for this weeks announcement of 500+ mile batteries and battery swap technology demonstation. For instance, you plan a trip from Chicago to Toronto, which is approximately 500 miles each way. You drive halfway to a supercharger station in Lansing and instead of waiting to charge up your battery you swap it out with a 500+ battery. The battery is enough to get you to Toronto and back to the Supercharger station, where your original battery is put back into your car, fully charged to take you home. Doing so would save you tons of waiting time since it will only be the time it takes to swap the battery. Also, you save on the amount of times you have to stop. This is HUGE thing because right now, no matter how you look at it, you still have to stop more often that most gas cars to charge up the vehicle on long distance travels. So if Tesla does implement this (extended battery swaps) they should do it for a small convenience fee that is charged to customers, to help pay for the robotic systems, batteries, etc. that installed at the SC stations.
This is what I hope they do..! So this sort of combines some of the theories together that have been discussed earlier in the thread.
This is what I am hoping for as well. If they offered this type of temporary large battery rental at service centers it would make a trip from Kansas City, MO to Chattanooga, TN possible without the long wait for superchargers to finally penetrate the center of the country.
It's going to be so funny on Thursday when they show Elon, in the driver's seat slowly reach over and touch the glovebox button to reveal...
I heard second hand that Elon had indicated he was going to show how
to charge the Tesla S in five minutes. I don't know if that is true.
Swappable batteries would not be Elon's path because swappable is essentially a work around
the fast charging challenge. Elon would want to solve the fast charging problem, and
that would be a major announcement. I've seen fast charging solutions out there using carbonized LMO cathodes, but nothing that appeared ready for prime time (production). We will see,,,
A lot of cool things in a lab environment just never get out of the lab...
I paid 2 grand for the supercharger modification and I hope the announcement revolves around them. Get them built up around the country and if they charge faster that would be a big plus. Battery swapping seems like a huge logistical nightmare with very high initial costs. Looking at the new supercharger network, Tesla is planning many more locations than the initial plan so I see that as their main focus, not swapping. I for one don't consider battery swapping a good idea at this time.
@jamesd567 ...who is the second hand person....ur buddy at your local drinking hole?? Just kidding. I think it's a plugin battery for the frunk which can be rented out or bought depending on the customer's preference. The key phrase Elon used in his tweet was that you can recharge your car faster than you can fill the gas tank "throughout" the country. I think that rules out battery swap given there is no plan at this time to build battery swap infrastructure throughout the country any time soon. So, logic dictates it's a plugin battery to extend miles in short order when needed.
I admire your tenacity. It'll be such a satisfying moment for you when he says, "Now, I'm going to swap out this Decaf Donut Shop Breakfast Blend with a K-cup of Earl Grey Tea."
I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the CCI designed by Tesla is refrigerated and holds a thermos for cream. Why else would it cost $1250.00?
How about something like that:
We all know that one of the limitation for high powered charging is the cable size. So to get to 5 minutes charge it would become big and heavy and unusable, not to say dangerous.
So why not have a battery swap robot, that would remove the battery from the car, flash charge it using a an appropriate connection (of the same type that connects the battery to the electric motor inside the car), and then put the battery back into the car.
New technology high capacity battery ( or other storage medium), same format and connections as current so backwards compatible, and capable of much higher rate of recharge. So will make everyone happy, can be deployed throughout the country, and is something no one has yet seen. It is also under your nose, as an expression and more literally under your bottom. Greater range, fewer refueling stops, so, time wise, refuels faster than an ice. Same kind of logic as the prior financial slight of hand. No frunk battery because of weight and complete lack of electrical infrastructure, the handling would be significantly different and may be dangerous, no main battery swap like better place for all the reasons already mentioned.
It actually takes 20 seconds to charge the Model S at a supercharger. 20 seconds on top of your usual routine:
- park the car
- plug in 10 seconds
- walk away from the car
- toilet, coffee, lunch / sandwich, some shopping
- come back to the car
- unplug 10 seconds
All those hallucinogenic dreams of battery swap and high density unicorn dust-air batteries that the Model S will got a shot from just under your nose ... are just that!
* "will got" -> "will get"
Why would you have to take the battery out of the car? I would think if super-fast supercharging were possible it would be robotically attached to the battery under the car. It would work with the "right under your nose" comment which is the only comment currently steering me away from main-pack battery swapping.
Anyone know the size of the cable from chargerport to the battery enclosure? If it is oversize compared to the supercharger cable, then they have left room for supersupercharging.
It seems to me that two of the things that we know Tesla is working on are aimed at making batt-swapping unnecessary.
First, we know they are working on increasing the energy density in future batteries. Elon mentioned a 400-500 mile battery a couple months ago, but didn't give any details.
Second, we know they are working on improving vehicle charge times through battery chemistry and by optimizing the superchargers to take full-advantage of what that chemistry will allow.
I have a spare battery for my phone, but I never use it. It's easier just to recharge the thing every night. If Tesla succeeds in making enough progress in the two areas mentioned above, then there won't even be a need for batt-swapping.
Technically (if my spare battery is charged,) I can "FULLY CHARGE" my cell phone in SECONDS just by changing the battery. But I NEVER do. Its not even inconvenient to swap the thing out, but I just don't do it cos its easier to plug it in when I get home.
Maybe humans are internally wired with an aversion to batt-swapping. Maybe they just intrinsically know that a car shouldn't require regular dis-assembly.
And another thing - neither my cell phone nor my laptop comes with the equivalent of a range-extending frunk-pack battery.
Thursday's demo? It'll be the new 500-mile battery being supercharged to 200+ miles in 3-10 minutes!
Almost everyone I know has an external battery pack for their iPhone. (I use it just a few times a year when I can't find a socket and my battery is running low.) Also laptops have external battery packs if you need to work for longer time without a socket to charge it.
No breakthroughs are necessary for the frunk-pack. If so, why didn't they include this option from the outset? They could have designed this in from the beginning.
Ok guys...first, Elon knows how to word things. And this is a written tweet. So it wasn't off the cuff. He has to think about how to phrase it.
The tweet says "Recharge"....not swap.
"Model S"...which means today's model. Not Model X, or Gen III of the future.
In less time to fill up your gas tank. Which takes most people 4-6 minutes. But I'd be pleased as pie with 10 minutes.
The only 3 things that would do this is:
1.) far faster charging than 120kW using more output (but I can not imagine that being safe or possible)
2.) Some sort of "add on" metal air battery which charges the main pack (ie all the talk about aluminum air batteries)
3.) A "add on" supercapacitor that takes charge at a super high rate and then charges the main battery pack.
Now I was watching his Oxford presentation and he seemed to imply such a supercapacitor could be made, based on the recent advances in photonics, to create an unnatural, on the molecular level, supercapacitor.
So I'm guessing it's number 3.
If it IS number 3, TSLA stock will soar to new heights because the licensing fees of such world changing technology would be tremendous and would be transferable to all transportation and many, many industries.
Number 2 would also be impressive as well.
All I know is I'm going to sit back with some popcorn and watch the demonstration.
@davidg11....that is pretty good...if #3 is the deal, it's truly revolutionary....the issue of charging convenience will be completely moot!!! I think I better buy Tesla stocks I....I wouldn't really be surprised if that is the case because a superconductor is one of the few -- if not the only way -- one can fully charge his electric vehicle than a conventional gas car....
faster than a conventional gas vehicle I mean.....
Lots of good thoughts everyone...very enjoyable.
I believe that it's important to remember how Elon thinks:
1) The right question - what is the right question with regard to recharging speed?
2) Reason from first principles - when innovating try not to use analogies but rather start with what you know for sure and progress forward.
3) Always question - what are you forgetting, how can it be faster, what will make it a more compelling product.
Where that gets us, I don't know (Hey, I'm not Elon) but maybe it will spur some new ideas. ;-)
@davidg11 - I suppose Elon knows how to word things. But don't forget, this is the guy who said you could own a Model S for $500 per month, deriving that number by taking the $1,000+ monthly payment and SUBTRACTING the value of the gas you didn't buy, the time you didn't spend filling your tank, the taxes you didn't pay, etc. So let's see: it takes me at least an hour to charge from empty to full, subtract a half-hour because I don't need to fill it all the way up, another 10 minutes because I didn't have to pay, five more minutes because there is no place to wash my windshield at the supercharger station, 10 more minutes because I didn't get gasoline on my hands and consequently didn't have to wash them. That's 5 minutes, faster than I can fill a (big) gas tank!
Funny, but in all fairness, the Tesla financing page made it clear that, to get a correct estimate, you should select the circumstances that apply to you. Elon made the same points in interviews.
This is too much fun. Probably more entertaining than the demonstration itself. So heck, why not one more hair-brained idea.
Nothing I have read indicates that this is going to be deployed today, tomorrow or even next year. Still it is Tesla's best interest to show what is possible a few years down the road. As long as you make the new technology backward compatible to the S then current S owners will be happy.
So....you charge a battery or super capacitor. It is mounted in/on the floor. A MS drives over it configured with a new battery (sorry we will have to upgrade). Put the car in park, a "robot" takes over, docks the floor mounted battery/super capacitor to the MS upgraded battery in a fashion that has multiple connection points, large enough wiring to handle "parallel" charging and in minutes the energy is transferred from the "super-duper charger" to the MS's battery.
This overcomes a number of the issues that have been pointed out before. a) How to get the current grid to transfer that much energy that quickly.......you don't, you do it over time and hold it in a battery/capacitor. b) The size of wiring needs to be massive....only if you charge through 1, or few connections. By doing something with "massive" parallel charging you eliminate this issue. c) Phantom/mystery 2nd charging port.....not needed as the new battery will have multiple charging connections.
I have no idea, at least not any more than most, but it is an interesting concept, no?
@sia - Not to sidetrack this very focused thread, but even if you select only the circumstances that apply to you, there is no way to get a $1,000 payment down to $500. You need to ADD the costs to a competing car; you cannot SUBTRACT them from costs of owning a Model S. Someone who has only $500 a month to spend cannot afford a Model S.
My point, however (and I love Elon, TM, and my car), is that we should not hang literally on Elon's words in predicting what will happen June 20. He is quite capable of puffery.
you guys are funny.....the announcement is only 3 days away. Can't wait till then?
77 hours and 18 minutes...
...it will be a 1MW flash charge utilizing 12 standard 85kwH packs in parallel, high temp super conducting wires and connectors and liquid helium battery cooling...
just my weird contribution to all the speculation;-)
Elon is laughing his head of while reading this thread for sure- hopefully he will present a best of all speculations in his announcement.
. . . but who's counting?
Hey, I heard that the originator of the idea that makes him laugh the hardest is actually going to win a free ride in their OWN CAR!
Atlanta, in that case you may have a winner right there! Congratulatoins.
I take credit for the McDonald's drive-thru interface, but not the Keurig in the glovebox.
The Tesla S model is the greatest automobile ever produced and delivered. However, it is not good enough. Make it better, Tesla.
Make it a LOT better. As fast as you can.