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Nissan Leaf/Chevy Volt websites vs Tesla's

Nissan Leaf/Chevy Volt websites vs Tesla's

I had some down time at work and decided to see what information Nissan gives about the Leaf. To look at the Leaf's site it seems that Nissan really doesn't want to educate their customers or at least be forthright with them. One, with reference to the range of the car, that is an expensive car. $34K gets you only 75 miles. On the site they tell you it gets 75 miles per a "full charge", but unlike Telsa, they don't say based on what speed. They also don't give you the option to plug in your particular driving habits to see a more realistic range.

I also looked at the Volt and it was the same thing. No mention what they are basing their proclaimed range on. They also don't say how fast it goes from 0-60. The Volt battery fully charged is only good for 38 miles, then the gas engine kicks in. Well, they don't call it an engine, they call it a "gas powered generator". So once those mere 38 miles are gone, the car becomes a ICE car until you charge it back up which takes 4 hours using the optional home charger.

Is there any wonder they (Volts) aren't selling.... It's obvious that GM and to a certain extent Nissan, are not serious about the EVs. Comparing Tesla's website to theirs, Tesla puts all their cards on the table and the other two are still following the old bait and switch approach.

Just an observation.

jcaspar1 | December 27, 2013

The Volt has out sold the Leaf so far this year:

http://green.autoblog.com/2013/12/03/chevy-volt-nissan-leaf-continue-nec...

Pettifogger.ca.us | December 27, 2013

The limitations of the Leaf and Volt are well known, and anyone considering the purchase of either would presumably research more than their respective corporate web sites.

jackhub | December 27, 2013

Actually, technically, the volt does not have an ICE. It has a gas powered generator that drives the electric motor. So the electric motor is always in use--even if it is furnished electricity by a gas powered electric generator! interesting agglomeration of technologies.

BrassGuy | December 27, 2013

Gas powered generator has an internal combustion engine, so a Volt has an ICE.

Petitefogger | December 27, 2013

Some might argue that the Volt's Internal Combustion Engine is more than a generator. Search under "Chevy Volt's engine more than just a generator" (link not allowed).

jordanrichard | December 27, 2013

GM likes to tell people that the Volt doesn't have an engine, but a generator. Well, if it's burning fuel be it gas or diesel, it's an engine. The fact that the output is to a generator instead of a transmission, doesn't change the fact that it's still a ICE. Also, that is very old technology. Trains since the end of the steam era have all been diesel/electric. The diesel engines run the generator that produces the power for the wheels.

I didn't realize the Leaf was selling even less than the Volt. I just watched a Teslive video on You Tube and on it, Elon Musk said that a lot of companies are building EVs just to meet regulatory
requirements. That would explain the lack of substance for both the Leaf and Volts web pages. As many have said, Tesla is moving forward and the rest are just doing the bare minimum and in the end, they are going to be left so far behind.

jcaspar1 | December 27, 2013

At least the Volt is a lot better than a Prius which only gets 6-12 miles electric before the ICE kicks in.

Roamer@AZ USA | December 27, 2013

@jackhub

Think about what you wrote. .???

"It doesn't have an ICE." .???

What turns the generator to make the electricity. Does it really matter if you mechanically or electrically connect the Internal Cumbustion Engine (ICE) to the drive wheels ?

AmpedRealtor | December 28, 2013

Based on Nissan's numbers, Model S owners are getting an incredible deal. Here's how...

Nissan Leaf costs $34,000 and goes 75 miles. That comes to $453 per mile of range. A base model S85 costs $81,000 and goes 265 miles. That comes to $306 per mile of range, or 32% less expensive than the Leaf! Even my P85 clocks in at $400 per mile of range, or 12% less than a Leaf.

I believe that when you are going to compare these vehicles, the cost-per-mile of range is an important one to consider.

jordanrichard | December 28, 2013

AmpedRealtor, that is exactly what I thought when I saw what a Leaf costs and what one got for stated range. One would have to have another car to leave town with. If in fact you could go 75 miles, that's only 37 miles one way. So you are stuck to a 37 mile radius of your home. This is based on a worst case scenario that you didn't have a place to charge at that 37 mile mark. It is so obvious why these cars aren't selling. Though as others have said, at least they are making the car and selling it outside of California.

I just saw an article about the Cadillac version of the Volt. It costs $72,000!!!. and will fit only 4 people and has no where near the cargo space of the MS. They don't like calling it a "hybrid", it's an "EV-Extended range". If it didn't have that puny 1.4L engine, whoops I mean gas generator, the car would only go 38 miles and die.

lolachampcar | December 28, 2013

I suspect the difference in web sites is attributable to the fact that Tesla does BEV for a living and thus should do a better job with their BEV related website. It also helps that Tesla is a tech company :)

Wross | December 28, 2013

I have both a Leaf and a Model S.

We got the Leaf for under $30K out the door, traded a broken prius for it so $24K was the amount after trade.

It's an OK car for around town. It's small, seats 5, drives OK, comfortable. My wife likes it, we've had it a year.

It is no comparison to the Tesla S. It's like comparing a BMW 7 series to a Nissan Versa.

When I decided on my Tesla S, I compared to the equivalent cars:
BMW 7, Mercedes S, Jag, Audi 7 (A7, S7 etc.)

I've had a number of BMWs, and the Tesla is my 3rd electric car.
I had to have both, so I could have the range to work or drive to Houston & Dallas from Austin.

The Tesla is a game changer. It is the first Electric car I could own and not have to have another car available.

I typically drove 90% electric and 10% BMW. Now I drive 100% Tesla.

I love my Tesla

Walter

TeslaLandShark | December 28, 2013

I've seen the Leaf advertised starting at $18,800 after incentives here the the bay area. Since they lowered the price I've been seeing a LOT of them on the road here. They get to use the HOV lane like us. If it wasn't so butt-ugly I could see buying one strictly as commuter car. I would never give up my Land Shark for one though!

carlk | December 28, 2013

Volt's ICE can drive the wheels under certain situations. It is not strictly a generator.

mrrjm | December 28, 2013

@jordanrichard

I had a 2013 Volt for a year. Loved it. Now I have a P85+. Love it too. Before I bought the volt I did all kinds of research. I knew exactly how the power train worked. Lots of videos on youtube. I learned all about the battery and cooling. All about the climate control. Pretty much every detail about the car and it's operation. The Tesla. Nothing! No video's. No technical info. I have very little technical detail about this car. No idea on the battery cooling & heating. Absolutely nothing on the climate control operation. Tesla is very lacking in this department. I love my Tesla. I wish I knew more about it.

EJH | December 29, 2013

mrrjm:
Yes, a shop manual for the S would be VERY nice to have.

michael1800 | December 29, 2013

In regards to the OP, the other manufacturers approach their website as a manufacturer with their EV being a small piece of the overall picture...and simply an add-on to a pre-existing site strategy. Tesla built theirs from the ground up focusing on removing very specific perceived barriers to EV ownership in addition to selling vehicles. I don't think the others are baiting and switching as much as they are simply trying to avoid anything negative they can. Given that EVs are a tiny portion of their overall profit generators, they're playing it conservative and protecting the overall business. That whole approach is what makes Tesla a game changer and a much needed catalyst for EV proliferation.

jordanrichard | December 29, 2013

michael1800, I agree with you about it just being another product for say GM. However since an EV is a different type of car all together and if they really wanted to sell them, they would go the extra mile to do as Tesla has done.

AmpedRealtor | December 31, 2013

This should serve as a wake-up call for other EV manufacturers...

http://www.torquenews.com/1083/ev-sales-stall-tesla-outsells-rest-field-...

joer293 | January 2, 2014

I think calling it a Chevy is probably what's wrong. They need to invent a new brand, badging, or it will just get lost in the me too compliance category. The General public has a hard time with accepting hybrids for the same reason, it's just an expensive engine option to a car. If you made an identical sister car, and called it a different brand especially for electric/hybrid, sales would go up. Just look at the difference calling the same truck with different options does for the GMC Sierra, Chevy silverado or a Cadillac escalade does for sales and the consumer interest. Or simply bring back Oldsmobile or Pontiac as the "electric only" branding of the Model lineup.

Volts are nice cars, for someone else to own. If they fully loaded it and called it a Cadillac ETS sedan, now you're on to something.

lorenfb | January 5, 2014

"On the site they tell you it gets 75 miles per a "full charge", but unlike Telsa, they don't say based on what speed."

Recently leased a 2013 Leaf in 11/2013.
The following range data have been consistent for the last
six weeks:

1. At 40 mph - about 6 miles/kwh
2. At 60 mph - about 3 miles/kwh

So based on the Leaf's battery capacity of 24kwh the range at
a steady mph is about 72 miles @ 60 mph or about 144 miles @ 40 mph.
Those ranges obviously assume no stops/starts which for the 40 mph
range is unrealistic. The 72 mile range falls within the Leaf's
on-board diagnostics which calculates the average range of about
85 miles after fully charging the battery to 100%.

When one compares the Leaf's range versus the Tesla's range,
given the vehicles' weights & battery capacities, the Leaf
is more effect.

Obviously, Nissan could double the range to over 150 miles by
doubling the battery capacity (and add another 450 lbs) and
thus increasing the cost to $45K - $48K. The issue, though,
would it have a market (probably not)?

Bottom line: Neither the Leaf nor the Tesla has any real
technological advantage over the other, both basically use
'over-the-counter' systems and if you will use "brute-force" utilization of today's battery technology.

lorenfb | January 5, 2014

typo correction since edit not available:

"When one compares the Leaf's range versus the Tesla's range,
given the vehicles' weights & battery capacities, the Leaf
is more effect."

When one compares the Leaf's range versus the Tesla's range,
given the vehicles' weights & battery capacities, the Leaf
is more efficient

Haeze | January 5, 2014

@Wross
I am betting you are one of those people who is grinning ear to ear at all the Superchargers going in around your area. Making those Houston/Dallas trips for free has got to feel good !

jordanrichard | January 5, 2014

lorenfb, though I do not own a MS yet, I have read extensively about the differences between the Leaf and the Model S. Granted the batteries that the Model S uses may be "off the shelf", but there are still vast differences in how Tesla manages the inherit heat build up in the LION batteries. Tesla has a battery management system that will either cool (circulated coolant) or heat the batteries as needed. The Leaf doesn't use battery cells, they use flat panels that are sandwiched on top of each other horizontally. Also, these batteries are air cooled from the bottom up. So the layers on top will get hot, which is not good.

AmpedRealtor | January 5, 2014

@ lorenfb,

Leaf is simply not a contender in hot climates. Arizona Leaf drivers are lucky to get 50% of the promised range from what I've read. While the Model S will actively cool its battery to maintain range in our 115ºF+ desert heat, the Leaf's battery is hostage to high ambient temperatures. This range reduction is not temporary and is not limited to hot days - it actually damages the battery resulting in permanent range loss in just 1-2 years of use.

The Model S is the least expensive EV on a cost per mile basis. Leaf costs $350-$400 per mile of EV range. Volt costs almost $900 per mile of EV range. Model S clocks in at a low $270 per mile of EV range. Efficiency is one thing, range is another. Getting 115 MPGe is fantastic, but not so much if the car won't get you to work and back on a single charge. I want to use my car like a car - fill up and drive. I don't want to plug in and charge every time I stop somewhere because I have a tiny battery.

AmpedRealtor | January 5, 2014

+1 joer - you hit that nail on the head. I know several people who refuse to buy a Volt for no other reason than it is a Chevy and wears a Chevy badge. That is some serious brand damage.

SMinnihan | January 5, 2014

Good article in Hybrid Cars on 2013 results that I can't post because of spam filters, but google:

"Volt top selling plug-in, Leaf shatters own records, Tesla take 3rd place"

lorenfb | January 5, 2014

"Granted the batteries that the Model S uses may be "off the shelf", but there are still vast differences in how Tesla manages the inherit heat build up in the LION batteries."

That's true, but hardly anything that Nissan couldn't do if they
wanted the extra cost. It's really not any significant technology
achievement in an EV design that any EV manufacturer could utilize.

"The Model S is the least expensive EV on a cost per mile basis. Leaf costs $350-$400 per mile of EV range. Volt costs almost $900 per mile of EV range. Model S clocks in at a low $270 per mile of EV range."

Hardly a real economic basis for a true cost per mile when one
considers all factors, e.g. maintenance, repairs, and energy, etc.
From an efficiency AND cost per mile, the Leaf is better:

Tesla - 265 miles/100kwh = 2.65 miles per kwh
Leaf - 85 miles/24kwh = 3.54 miles per kwh

Based on SCE rates of $.11/kwh here in SoCal, the Leaf cost $.031
per mile versus the Tesla at $.042 per mile.

lorenfb | January 5, 2014

"Volt's ICE can drive the wheels under certain situations. It is not strictly a generator."

That's true that the ICE has a direct connection to the rear wheels
when connected to the generator/motor element. I doubt many Volt
buyers consider the mechanical complexity of it, but the Chevy
service departments will love the Volt over time. Lack any system,
the failure rate is a function of the number of elements in the
system.

The Volt:
1. two electric motors (one acts as generator/motor)
2. three clutches
3. gas motor
4. complex planetary gear unit

lorenfb | January 5, 2014

More typos, need an editor:

"Lack any system" - what

Take any system

AmpedRealtor | January 5, 2014

@ lorenfb,

Couple of things. First, your range estimate for the Leaf is above EPA's rating. EPA rates the Leaf at 75 miles, so let's stick to the EPA ratings. Especially if you are going to also use the Model S EPA rating. Second, the Model S has an 85 kWh battery pack, not a 100 kWh pack as you indicate. Those niggling little details (who's got time to be fair, after all) now make both cars equivalent using your calculation:

Tesla - 265 EPA miles/85 kWh = 3.12 miles per kWh
Leaf - 75 EPA miles/24 kWh = 3.13 miles per kWh

Using your own calculations and without resorting to made up numbers, the Model S is equivalent to the Leaf in terms of efficiency (miles per kWh). Please, if you are going to try to make a point using numbers, please at least use the correct figures instead of blatantly using made up numbers that undermine your credibility.

Based on APS rates of 6¢/kWh here in Arizonia, the Model S costs 1.9¢ per mile versus the Leaf at 1.9¢ per mile. Oh wait, they're the same!... I'd rather have the Model S which goes 3.5x as far on a single charge. It also says a lot that Tesla can gain the same efficiency with a 4,600 lb Model S as Nissan does with the 3,300 lb Leaf - a car weighing almost 30% less.

jjaeger | January 5, 2014

+1 AR - as my daughter would say, boooyaah

Brian H | January 6, 2014

Well, I left this slightly snarky comment there:

"Hm. Volt and Leaf had to cut prices below cost to maintain sales. Telsa raised prices to stay on track for a 25% profit margin.

And the $-value of Tesla sales exceed Volt and Leaf combined. But the MS isn't even intended as its mass-market car! V&L are out of their league, now."

lorenfb | January 10, 2014

"Leaf - 85 miles/24kwh = 3.54 miles per kwh"

The above efficiency number is an actual consistent minimum
which my Leaf has produced. So even using the Tesla's published
efficiency of 3.11, the Leaf's, based on actual use, is still
better.

Additionally, few who drive the Tesla on a daily basis don't
even come close to utilizing its rated range of 265. So for
most who charge at night, the Tesla's range has limited benefit.
Besides, who would want to take a long trip and worry about
finding a charging station and possibly waiting in line to be
charged. Most cars driven on a daily basis are driven less than
100 miles. So, even with its rated range of only 265 miles,
the Tesla is basically still a city car like other EVs.

"Hm. Volt and Leaf had to cut prices below cost to maintain sales. Telsa raised prices to stay on track for a 25% profit margin."

So! There're two totally different markets. Like a Rolex, most
who buy a Tesla buy it as a status symbol, i.e. few really buy
it for its cost per mile. A typical Tesla buyer's logic; 'Why buy
a Mercedes S-Class or a Porsche Panamera when I can buy a Tesla
and gain addition status for about the same price?'

AmpedRealtor | January 10, 2014

@ lorenfb,

You are truly a piece of work. Do you have any concept of truth? You compare numbers which "[your] Leaf has produced" to the Tesla's EPA rating. That is not comparing apples to apples and you know that very well. After I destroyed your first comparison using fair numbers - EPA rating compared to EPA rating - now you say it doesn't matter? After you lose an argument this decisively, keeping quiet is usually the best course of action.

So again, apples to apples. If you are going to compare the "consistent minimum [range] which [your] Leaf has produced" then it needs to be compared to the consistent range produced by Model S, not its EPA rating. I consistently get over 300 miles per charge, or better than Tesla's own ideal rating, based upon my driving style. I drove 120 miles yesterday (double the Leaf's usable range in AZ) at an average of 238 Wh/mi, which would give me 357 miles per charge, but let's completely ignore that for a moment and go with a much more conservative 300 miles per charge.

So again, using your own comparison methods:

Tesla - 300 real miles / 85 kWh = 3.53 miles per kWh
Leaf - 85 real miles / 24 kWh = 3.54 miles per kWh

As you can see, both cars are exactly the same in terms of efficiency. Again, I'm using your given metrics and simple math to consistently disprove your misleading and biased statements.

"So for most who charge at night, the Tesla's range has limited benefit… Besides, who would want to take a long trip and worry about finding a charging station and possibly waiting in line to be charged."

So now your argument has devolved into saying that longer range has no benefit, and that nobody needs to drive more than the distance their Leaf can go? I love a good comedy! I don't know, lorenfb, it seems like a car that can only go 85 miles would spend a lot more time waiting in line for a charge than a car that can go 300 miles. Wouldn't you agree? Leafs must be plugged-in at every opportunity so as not to run out of juice - at the grocery store, at the outlet mall, at the office, and at home. On the other hand, I charge once at home and I can drive as much as I want or need without any worries.

You might also tell drivers of ICE vehicles that they are foolish to ever attempt to exceed the mileage of a single tank of gas, and that they are dolts for "worrying about finding a [gas] station and possibly waiting in line." Oh the horror.

AmpedRealtor | January 10, 2014

@ lorenfb,

You are truly a piece of work. Do you have any concept of truth? You compare numbers which "[your] Leaf has produced" to the Tesla's EPA rating. That is not comparing apples to apples and you know that very well. After I destroyed your first comparison using fair numbers - EPA rating compared to EPA rating - now you say it doesn't matter? After you lose an argument this decisively, keeping quiet is usually the best course of action.

So again, apples to apples. If you are going to compare the "consistent minimum [range] which [your] Leaf has produced" then it needs to be compared to the consistent range produced by Model S, not its EPA rating. I consistently get over 300 miles per charge, or better than Tesla's own ideal rating, based upon my driving style. I drove 120 miles yesterday (double the Leaf's usable range in AZ) at an average of 238 Wh/mi, which would give me 357 miles per charge, but let's completely ignore that for a moment and go with a much more conservative 300 miles per charge.

So again, using your own comparison methods:

Tesla - 300 real miles / 85 kWh = 3.53 miles per kWh
Leaf - 85 real miles / 24 kWh = 3.54 miles per kWh

As you can see, both cars are exactly the same in terms of efficiency. Again, I'm using your given metrics and simple math to consistently disprove your misleading and biased statements.

"So for most who charge at night, the Tesla's range has limited benefit… Besides, who would want to take a long trip and worry about finding a charging station and possibly waiting in line to be charged."

So now your argument has devolved into saying that longer range has no benefit, and that nobody needs to drive more than the distance their Leaf can go? I love a good comedy! I don't know, lorenfb, it seems like a car that can only go 85 miles would spend a lot more time waiting in line for a charge than a car that can go 300 miles. Wouldn't you agree? Leafs must be plugged-in at every opportunity so as not to run out of juice - at the grocery store, at the outlet mall, at the office, and at home. On the other hand, I charge once at home and I can drive as much as I want or need without any worries.

You might also tell drivers of ICE vehicles that they are foolish to ever attempt to exceed the mileage of a single tank of gas, and that they are dolts for "worrying about finding a [gas] station and possibly waiting in line." Oh the horror.

lorenfb | January 10, 2014

"You are truly a piece of work."

Here we go, attack the messenger versus the message when your
position is losing. But that's typical for most forums.

Sorry you wasted $80K+ on a vehicle which will have a zero salvage
value in three years. My Leaf is leased, so when the battery's
capacity has been reduced, I'm out of the vehicle. Who will want
to buy a used Tesla and then buy a new Tesla battery for $15k+?
Given my 25K+ miles per year driving, half of which will now be with
the Leaf, gas savings per year will cover the lease payments and
the down payment. I doubt that a Tesla buyer can say that. But then,
as a Tesla driver you can self-indulge yourself looking around
to count who's looking over at you.

"I consistently get over 300 miles per charge"

Really, so that's only an average of 3.5 miles/kwh (300/85),
what a joke! My Leaf averages consistently gets 5.3 miles/kwh.
Surely that 17" in-dash laptop (providing additional street
lighting at night) must provide you with real time and actual
usable data, right? If so, then let's hear it.

"On the other hand, I charge once at home and I can drive as much as I want or need without any worries."

Luckily, you bring a long extension for those long trips, right,
given the lack of the 'many' Tesla charging stations. So unless
you have a non-standard home charging station (~7.2kw max for
most), your Tesla takes about 12 hrs to charge, right? That's
way beyond the six hours most all power companies provide for
their very low rates. Luckily though, when driving near a Nissan
dealer, they'll feel for you as a Tesla owner and let you use
their charging station.

"You might also tell drivers of ICE vehicles that they are foolish to ever attempt to exceed the mileage of a single tank of gas, and that they are dolts for "worrying about finding a [gas] station and possibly waiting in line.""

A real stupid comment, as most/all ICE drivers always have access
to re-fueling and are usually done re-fueling in less than five
minutes. That's why I don't rely on an EV for all my driving needs.

Bottom line: EV vehicles of today, e.g. both the Tesla & Leaf,
are NOT replacement vehicles for the typical driver. To think so
is being rather naive. That's why my EV only supplements my ICE
driving.

AmpedRealtor | January 10, 2014

Troll alert!

Troll alert!

compchat | January 10, 2014

I have a volt and get about 30 miles on battery. Until recharged it runs on gasoline ( top grade only). Thirty miles is fine for driving around town in a low powered vehicle. I used very little gas perhaps 4 gallons per month tops for those trips to long beach or riverside or LA. It's not a bad compromise between ICE and Gas Engine. BTW going up hill the gas engine will come on to assist the electric engine if the grade is high and the accelerator is floored.

I now own a Tesla Model S and am in the process of turning the volt in early. You can't really compare the two vehicles in any way. If you can't afford a Tesla Model S I would still recommend the Volt for S.California driving. More chargers around the State would help Volt owners to save gas. One good thing about the Volt I cannot say about Tesla is that there is no range anxiety. I can purchase gas anywhere. Not so (yet) with Tesla. OTH I really really really wanted that Tesla once I test drove it. You can't measure that in dollars or gallons.

AmpedRealtor | January 10, 2014

@ lorenfb,

"Really, so that's only an average of 3.5 miles/kwh (300/85), what a joke! My Leaf averages consistently gets 5.3 miles/kwh."

Huh, a few posts ago you claimed 3.5 miles/kWh for your Leaf. Now you are claiming 5.3 miles/kWh? Is it really that difficult to keep track of your own misstatements, or did you just make a typo and decide to go with it? I mean all you have to do is scroll back to see what you said before. Are you having a hard time with copy/paste as well?

"Sorry you wasted $80K+ on a vehicle which will have a zero salvage value in three years."

Really, how do you figure? Please enlighten us. I understand that the Leaf's battery may severely degrade in three year's time for most people judging by the severe degradation after only one year experienced by owners here in Arizona, but you shouldn't let your own negative experience color your perception of other, better vehicles.

"My Leaf is leased, so when the battery's capacity has been reduced, I'm out of the vehicle."

It's a good thing you don't live in Arizona where the Leaf's battery permanently loses 50% of its usable capacity in just one year. You'd be out of the vehicle before you got into it. I would say that yes, a lease is the best option when it comes to a Leaf because there is no long term security. The fact that you have a lease due to battery concerns proves that point quite obviously, so thanks for making it for me.

"Who will want to buy a used Tesla and then buy a new Tesla battery for $15k+?"

I'm not exactly sure, since Roadster batteries have retained over 80% of their capacity after four years or 100,000 miles. Why would you need or want to spend money to replace a battery that still had 80% of its capacity? Do you normally throw away perfectly good things in your everyday life? Do you buy a new soda every time you take a sip? Or order a new plate of food after taking a few bites? You must live a lavish life.

"Luckily, you bring a long extension for those long trips, right, given the lack of the 'many' Tesla charging stations."

I've never had the need because, as I said above, I can get almost triple the distance out of my Model S than you can out of your Leaf. That means you need to charge three times for every one of my charges. That's a lot more driving for me and a lot more idle charging time for you. However, I suppose if I did need a 300-350 mile long extension cord it would look ridiculous compared to your 75 mile cord. You got me there!

"So unless you have a non-standard home charging station (~7.2kw max for most), your Tesla takes about 12 hrs to charge, right? That's way beyond the six hours most all power companies provide for their very low rates."

It's time to put down your plastic toys and pay attention. Model S charges from 0 to full (85 kWh) in just under 4 ½ hours. Twenty minutes at a supercharger gives me more miles - 150 of them - than you could ever squeeze out of your Leaf after six hours of charging. Add 10 more minutes to that and you are up to 170 miles. No problem with supercharger locations - they are everywhere I go. Maybe you are again speaking from your own negative experience with the Leaf, as the majority of usable Leaf chargers are located at Nissan dealerships and only available during business hours. How convenient.

When you have to drive at night or outside of regular business hours, what do you do? Perhaps you do what this Leaf owner did, plugging in at the drive-thru while ordering a burger...

But then what do you do for the next six hours? That's a lot of Happy Meals! You might want to watch Morgan Spurlock's Supersize Me, it might prove inspirational.

"Bottom line: EV vehicles of today, e.g. both the Tesla & Leaf, are NOT replacement vehicles for the typical driver."

You drive a Leaf so of course you would say that. Perhaps one day you will actually drive a Model S to see why all of us find that it is not just a replacement vehicle, but the best vehicle we have ever owned and driven. When you drive a Leaf and need to plug-in at every stop, it's natural that would have no other frame of reference.

It seems to me that your EV world view is tainted by your negative experience with the Leaf and its severely limited 75 mile range. You owe it to yourself to drive a Model S. You may realize some day, after driving a real EV, what the rest of us feel today.

Remember, my friend, thinking that something is true just because you say it makes you... delusional.

jordanrichard | January 10, 2014

Boy, what I fire I started with this thread.....
Lorenfb, have you even looked at the Super Charger map on Telsa's website. With in the next few months, a MS will be able to go clear across the country, stopping roughly ever 2 1/2 - 3 hours to charge up for free, at any hour of the day. Typically in an ICE, one is stopping after that period of driving anyways. So perhaps the charging is a bit longer than it would be to gas up, it's FREE!!. I think what a lot of people fail to realize is that the Model S isn't meant to be a "plug and play" replacement for an ICE. Meaning there are some changes to one's road trips/driving, that need to be made. Just as I am sure you made changes to your driving habits in town with your Leaf, from when you used an ICE. If one were to buy a diesel car, you can't buy diesel everywhere. So, one makes adjustments and seeks out places that sell diesel and plan their route around that.

Your Leaf is an in town car and the Tesla is a "I am getting out of town" car and Tesla has provided the infrastructure to support their product. Nissan had their dealers install outlets and as it has been said, they are only available during business hours. What does one do at a dealership while waiting for their car to charge? At least Tesla had the thought to place their Superchargers near shops and restaurants.

renwo S alset | January 10, 2014

AR, don't know if it's worth wasting your breath on Lorenfb. Troll alert is an understatement.

pilotSteve | January 10, 2014

AR, your replies (although ignored by the troll) are well written and interesting. Thanks for your analysis. Ignore the troll.

jjaeger | January 11, 2014

"Bottom line: EV vehicles of today, e.g. both the Tesla & Leaf, are NOT replacement vehicles for the typical driver."

Sorry, after 7 months of not driving my old ICE, sold it and have never looked back. 15,000 miles in the first year with several road trips and looking forward to more with the roll-out of the SCs. Sorry lorenfb, but at least for me on this point you are way off the mark. ICE replaced 100%.

Brian H | January 12, 2014

The MS not only replaces ICEs, it sends them into outer darkness forever.

jordanrichard | January 12, 2014

lorenfb, how about the recent 8 documented fires in Chevy pick up trucks that has forced GM to recall over 300,000 trucks. There has been no recall on any Teslas. How about the massive recall Chrysler was forced to do on their Jeep Cherokee's due to exploding gas tanks in rear impacts. Talk about waiting for the next fire.

You can't compare Leaf sales to Tesla. The Leaf has be out longer. There are thousands of Nissan dealers, making it easier to sell. Also, the Leaf is cheaper. If you are going to compare Leaf sales to Model S sales, then you mind as well say Ferrari isn't selling well because the Honda Civic is out selling them....

Bighorn | January 12, 2014

Perhaps folks should continue their debates with loren directly at lorenfb@aol.com
AOL still exists?! Who knew?

AmpedRealtor | January 12, 2014

@ lorenfb,

I'd love to know where you get your information. I get mine from Bloomberg. Leaf sold 22,610 units in the US in 2013 compared to Tesla's US shipments in excess of 25,000 and at 3x the price.

I would like to thank you for bring humor to my day, however. I love a good laugh. :)

Brian H | January 12, 2014

In terms of $ EV sales, TM outsells Volt, Leaf, and Spark combined.

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