Thanks, I suck at tags...
The luxury cars I speak of are mainly from Japan (Lexus). I've had 3. Before that I had BMW and Mercedes, which I considered to be more performance, less luxury IMO and pricey.
Keyless entry is std on lots of much less expensive cars. I don't know another car that only offers black or white paint or else pay for an upgrade. If anybody says they expected that, they're telling a lie.
Wasn't expecting the 160 mile battery to be slower 0-60 and top speed. If you swap a 160 mile pack for a 300 mile one, would the same chassis be able to get the better performance? I am thinking about resale values and aftermarket options. It would suck if the 160 miles cars were crippled in some way that never permits them to be upgraded in the future.
My mistake comparing luxury features to Lexus. Tesla never set out to compare luxury to Lexus, only to BMW and unnamed others. Even though many of the Tesla options are standard on Lexus, and many of the options like Nav and premium audio are priced at near half, on Lexus, it doesn't matter. I get it, economies of scale, etc, etc. Give me a moment, it will pass. Not deal breakers yet.
Still waiting to see the final dashboard integration of the infotainment screen. Now that could break the deal if what we saw on Oct 1 is final.
The Signature is somewhat overpriced.
The problem is that very few people will actually want every single one of the options included with it. However, it costs $5500 more than an identical fully loaded car. That's quite a large premium already for the time value, badging, one special interior option, and one special exterior paint option -- but if you weren't interested in one or more of the options, it starts being a huge premium. Possibly worth it (that time value of early delivery remains large), but a huge premium.
My Sig with NO pano roof and NO 21" wheels is coming in over $100K after sales tax. I have to decide whether early delivery is worth $8640. (It might be; I have paid large premiums for getting something earlier before; but it might not be.)
The numbers work out for me this way mostly because the 21" wheels are completely, utterly worthless to me -- worse than worthless, a pain. I don't suppose I could get them and sell them to someone getting a non-Sig in exchange for 19" aerodynamics, for, say, $2000? :-) Trouble is, I'd have wrecked the terrible-treadwear 21" tires and damaged the wheels driving on these gravelly roads by the time the non-Sig owner got their car...
The Signature Performance is even more overpriced, relative to the standard Performance. $11K premium!?!
It's looking like the people who reserved both a Sig and a standard may have been the the smart ones.
As for nickel-and-diming, I am astounded that Tesla are not planning to include the NEMA 14-50 campground plug standard (only the NEMA 14-30 dryer plug, according to the website).
That is actually pathetic. They need to change their minds on that: NEMA 14-50 has been the lifesaver for all electric car roadtrippers, and the Tesla Supercharger network will not really exist at the time the Signatures start being delivered.
At the very least the NEMA 14-50 attachment should come gratis with Signatures.
The HPC is out, it's far too expensive for its value as a home installation, what with the price of the car, which is already exceeding my $100K budget for it (I have to pay sales tax).
I might get a second UMC (one permanently plugged in at home, one in the car).... if there were a price for it. Which there isn't.
I also hope the delivery charge isn't outrageous. (I did work out that I could physically pick it up from Menlo Park and bring it back to NY for about $2100, so the delivery charge had *better* be less than that!)
Well, I am pleased at the inclusion of the other features on the Signature, anyway (air suspension, leather). But frankly, overpriced. I might well get it anyway, but overpriced.
I wonder if you would need the twin chargers to take advantage of the NEMA 14-50? So, with the single charger you only get 30 mi range per hour of charging. But even with the single charger you could still take advantage of the supercharger as long as you get the 300 mile battery? Is that because the supercharger is DC?
Tesla, please reconsider the cost of $1,500 for the rear facing seats. The seats themselves cannot be more than a few hundred in parts cost, and the labor of bolting them in cannot be THAT much can it?
In comparison, for the same $1,500 you can get a whole new air suspension system! That is a good value. $750 for the seats would be much more reasonable.
I am not surprised by any of the price options except for the tech package, and I still have questions (like others here) about the $5000 additional standard charge on the sport -- is it added to the price, or included in it.
After pricing out various cars and options, I have 4 that I am deliberating that range from $65,400 to $78,350.
Fall delivery would suit me perfectly as I could pay for it by then (barring any horrible economic crisis).
BTW, on none of my options did I include the suspension upgrade. I am just not convinced that it is necessary unless someone here can convince me otherwise.
@toto_48313: "My dream Tesla non-Sig is 92100, using my Sig reservation it's 99400. They're both under 100, which I had mentally prepared for, but I'm ambivalent about the 7300 I'm paying to get a car first instead of last. :)"
I went thru the options and the one I missed while adding everything up was the extra $3500 for the performance (21") tires. I came up roughly $1500 more for the Sig vs upconfiguring a base 85Kw model.
Added it up, did the math. Here's showing my work:
$1500 Multi-coat pain
$3500 High perf tires (vs $1500 aeros)
$1500 Leather seats
$3750 Tech Package
$ 950 Sound Studio
$1500 Air Suspension
$ 250 Parcel Shelf
$1500 Twin Chargers
$14450 to spec a standard up to a Sig.
Sig has 'extensive leather throughout' like the perf and perforated seating. Can't even option to that (unless that is just the same Nappa leather). Also get red paint and white leather. Price diff between 87,900 Sig and 69,900 regular = 18,000. So that's $3,550 for the extra leather, perforated seating and special paint?
Jason S, do the same from a standard performance and a Signature performance... and you'll found more than 3,500
"So that's $3,550 for the extra leather, perforated seating and special paint?"
Yes. So if you don't want white leather or a red car, the "signature premium" is $3550 for extra leather and perforated seating. If you don't have your heart set on multi-layer white, the premium is $5050. If you don't want *any* single other included option, the premium is exorbitant.
And you'll only get your car 3-6 months earlier than you would if you had an ordinary reservation. Perhaps less. The kicker is that if you drop back to the *reasonably* priced car, Tesla will probably kick you to the end of the queue.
Tesla is not treating the people who lent them $40,000 rather badly, unless they announce some additional perks of the Signature. Which they had better do, because it's overpriced as is, except for people who are in a truly raging hurry to get their car.
Regarding the Performance, a lot of people seem to suspect that the pricing description is one of those typically dishonest car pricing descriptions, and basically the Performance base price is $84,900. Though perhaps you can leave off some of that stuff if you want to *and get money back* for leaving it off, which looks like it's not the case with the Signature.
They should also discount the Signature if you don't get the 21" wheels; otherwise I am seriously going to see if I can figure out how to buy the 19" aero wheels separately and sell the 21" wheels for less than $3500 to a non-Signature reservation holder, making a profit on the deal.
That will probably be financially advantageous if they don't offer such a discount; it's absurd that that should be possible. It's one thing to gouge on options packaging when the option can't be removed and swapped with a lug wrench.... it's another to do so when it can.
For me, that would reduce the Signature premium from obscene ($8000) to merely disturbingly high ($5000)
That's if I don't give up on the Signature reservation.
The pano roof should be standard on the sig for the price!!!!! I can see myself dropping back to an ordinary s with wanted options.
Heh, typo. Tesla *is* treating the people who lent them $40,000 rather badly, unless they announce additional perks of the Signature. Personally I'd like free delivery.
I am switching from sig to sport as it seems to be the most car for the money. The sig certainly does not seem "fully optioned"
"For me, that would reduce the Signature premium from obscene ($8000) to merely disturbingly high ($5000)"
I missed where you got this $8,000 premium. I calculated a premium of $4,300 between the Signature and Standard Model S with comparable options.
Wow, just wow. I've searched high and low to find a car to be truly excited about to replace my aging (and somewhat unreliable) S55 AMG. That car, for me, was the Tesla Model S. I've been talking about this car non-stop, to everyone I've come in contact with. That's the level of excitement I've had for this car and the company behind it.
I say "had" because it turned to past tense in the blink of an eye. Not only is the options pricing not in line with industry standards for a "luxury" automobile (IMHO), but the lower level batter packs have much lower performance (0-60) specs than I had expected, and was lead to believe.
At this point I am seriously considering cancelling my reservation. To say I'm disappointed would be a major understatement.
And that's from the owner of an S55 AMG. I'm surprised by your surprise, but I assume your S55 was a used car bargain?
I don't understand why people are upset with the Signature pricing. I thought it was understood from the very beginning that the Sig would include a certain set of uplevel options. Clearly, that would mean that there are possibley some some options in that package some people may not really want. I mean, that's true with any options package for anything. If they don't offer every single feature as a seperate option then obviously, it's only perfect for people who want everything.
And also, you're supposed to be paying a premium for the Sig anyways. It's going to have special aesthetical treatments on both the interior and exterior. You're paying a premium for the excusivity and the right to be among the very first people to own the car.
I am surprised that there are people who are willing to put down $40k, for what is basically a vanity option, and now they're suddenly surprised it's more expensive. I mean that was point. You spend more, and you get to be set above the rest.
Volker - Sadly, no, the car was by no means a bargain. I'm fully aware of the high cost of options on luxury vehicles (Porsche is notorious, and I have one of those as well). I've owned BMW, Porsche, Mercedes and Land Rover, so I have some idea. However, it's easy to go over to a comparison chart and see that some vehicles come standard with leather, navigation and keyless entry at their base price. I posted a chart on another string that shows this. So for me the issue isn't so much the cost. The issue is the marketing of a 'premium' vehicle, that makes the buyer pay for all of the things that actually make it a premium vehicle.
Volker - If you go here (or I'm sure there are other sources available) you'll see in the comparison that some vehicles actually include luxury items in the base price of a luxury car. Novel concept, I know.
As a Sig holder – I am pretty shocked at the fact that there really is NO perk in having given them $40,000 up front, other than being put “higher” on the waiting list (I’ll address “time value” at the end). Setting aside comparisons of pricing to another vehicle in its class (i.e. BMW) – My comment is strictly towards pricing of the Model S – Standard v. Signature.
It was represented to me when considering depositing for a Sig (and if others were represented the same or similar – please chime in) – Not only were you going to be placed as one of the early owners of the Model S, but you would get a “fully loaded” vehicle at a discounted price (in comparison to adding comparable options to a standard Model S).
My understanding of “fully loaded” is a vehicle with ALL options – I guess Tesla has a different definition. When a “Performance” model was announced, I thought “Great! Sig owners should get a “fully loaded” car at a discount” – NOPE, please add $10,000. Pano roof? Please add $1,500.
That being said though – I’m okay with not having a car that can go 0-60mph 1.2 sec faster for a $10,000 premium; and I’m also okay with not feeling the sun shine on me as I drive, for a $1,500 premium.
I do feel cheated though when the “fully loaded” Sig I’m supposed to get has a premium over a comparable Model S, no matter how you slice it.
Taking your base 85kWh Model S and adding on the Sig included features (including $1,500 if you want the one “Tesla Multi-coat” paint that’s included in the price of a Sig) – A Sig owner is paying a $3,550 premium.
If we left it at that – is having to pay $3,550 more for the Sig to get it earlier worth it? Maybe for some, but that’s not necessarily a “perk” since you CAN pay for it.
Nevertheless, that’s only if we left it at that. Where’s the “discount” in the options? Where’s the “Signature” in the Sig Model S? One Signature Red paint color? Did I deposit $40,000 for a Sig on a leap of faith and all I get in return is knowing that I am going to HAVE to pay $3,550 for my spot on the list and a single, special color of paint that I don’t even want?
Don't get me wrong, I am very excited about the car itself. Maybe something else will happen down the road – I’ll keep my place in line, but I hope that Tesla Motors does not get distracted so much as to comments of what Model S pricing is like compared to ___________ – but give more thought to those that are apparently, in my opinion, getting screwed when taking that leap of faith by depositing for a Sig with no “perk” that could otherwise be purchased.
mscottring, thanks for your explanation and the link. I for one am happy that Tesla decided to offer pricey options in exchange for a reasonable base price. More options included would inevitably mean higher base price.
You must not forget: This is an industry first, on a world wide historical scale. And you are going to be among the first few thousand world wide to own one. It is a matter of fact that no competitor big or small has anything comparable to offer at any price.
If what Tesla has to offer does not appeal to you, or does not seem adequate value for your money -- it's a free country. Choices of premium or luxury cars are abundant (and quite a few of them are priced for exclusivity and brand name, not strictly for their practical value or for the sum of their parts). Simply let Tesla know by canceling your reservation. I know this sounds offensive but that's not how it's meant. I am entirely serious. I am still convinced that every single Model S will already have a customer's name attached to it the moment it leaves the factory, at least for a year or two to come.
BTW - If/when they reach all 1,000 Signature deposits in the US; that's $40,000,000 in cash flow to Tesla Motors.
All the Sig owner will get for the "EXQUISITELY EQUIPPED" "Limited Edition" Model S is a choice of one paint color not available otherwise...
Oops, sorry - add to that:
All the Sig owner will get for the "EXQUISITELY EQUIPPED" "Limited Edition" Model S is a choice of one paint color AND a choice of white leather seating - not available otherwise...
In regards to JimmyN's comments, I'm in agreement. It seems to me there are two types of Signature reservation holders: the one that put down their money and reservation early and has been waiting and the one that recently put in its reservation say in the last 6 months (picking some arbitrary cut off line).
It seems like Tesla has chosen to price the Signatures with the latter (late reservations) group in mind. For those just recently putting in their reservations, it makes sense to charge them a premium to basically cut in line.
For those that have been their since the beginning/early stages, what benefit does the current pricing offer? For those that put their money down early in the game, they aren't really getting to cut in line because the delivery time between S1 versus P1(at that time they could have been high on the S list or P list) probably isn't that significant, maybe a month or so.
Considering that the early Signature reservation holders gave their big deposits for the longest time, it doesn't seem to benefit them at all. That's the group that probably has the most to gripe about and probably should be treated the best, yet that is not the case.
"get a 'fully loaded' vehicle at a discounted price"
I don't know where this expectation came from and I'm surprised that a Tesla rep pitched it as such.
As far as yesterday's information vs. my prior expectations, I expected more additional options to be *available* than on the non-Sig. I didn't expect them to be included as standard in the Sig.
They are going to have to do a whole lot better for international markets. There won't be any delay for battery sizes and prices are already sky high for cars relative to the USA. 1 paint colour and 1 leather colour are not going to cut it in association with a badge!
I am convinced that they won't charge a $3k to$4k premium, just for the logo(and white leather?), compared to the full spec S.
But I am a naive European in front of the Sig queue. I doubt that the pricing in the UK is a simply FX £/$ pricing.
I am convinced that they won't charge a $3k to$4k premium, just for the logo(and white leather?), compared to the full spec S.
From what has been revealed it seems like the Signature reservation holders, especially the early holders, are getting the shaft.
Originally, the Signature was to have options/features only available on the Signature. From the information revealed, the only thing that it applies to is the extra red color available for the Signature which is kind of silly since the regular models have 4 colors that are not available to the Signature. I don't understand that at all.
However I will give Tesla the benefit of the doubt for now. I will trust that they will make the Signature more attractive than just getting your car early, some badging and different colors.
One thing that never seems to be mentioned is that the sig is a limited run car. It's "exclusive." I personally don't care much for that sort of thing, but many people do. They did require more down for a reservation for one -- possibly to attract a crowd they deemed would be more interested in that.
I'm not saying you should be happy with it, but rather that the exclusiveness, std options, and spot in line are often enough for the group of people I think tesla was targeting with the sig. I'm not trying to be nasty, but if that doesn't sit well with you, maybe you should consider downgrading your reservation. I know I would.
@ all the guys that are confused with the sport version pricing.
It is actually $79900 + $5000 of "non-optional options".
If your read it well it is written on the starting price line "$79900 plus Additional standard equipment"
And then they tell how much is that, so $5000 more.
So the base price for the non-sig performance S is $84900. It is really silly marketing.
That said. The non-optional options add up to $6500 if add them on top of the standard model. So Tesla makes a generous 1500 discount when you go for the performance S ;-)
Congrats on sticking to estimates made all the way back in '09 - impressive!!!
And only a $5550 premium for the Signature (versus a similarly equipped 85kW) - again kudos!!!
Happy to have contributed by "loaning" a bit of cash and promoting the brand - better payout than leaving it in the bank and we can say we helped the shift from petrol to electric!
--Tim (aka digitaltim)
If it hasn't been made clear from other threads, "keyless entry" in the Tech Package refers to the proximity sensing tech that automatically extends the door handles when you approach. Without the Tech Package, you push a button on the key fob to do that.
In no case are you sticking bits of metal into your car.