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Porsche/Audi just got real nervous about their EV efforts

Porsche/Audi just got real nervous about their EV efforts

I couldn't stop laughing when I read this article from Electrek. Why I was laughing is because all of the so called auto experts spouting off about how easy it will be for any of the "big boys" in the auto industry to make an EV that would compete with Tesla. Also, this article further illustrates just how far ahead of everyone else Tesla is.

https://electrek.co/2019/02/09/tesla-model-3-cost-surprise-porsche-audi-...

82bert | February 11, 2019

Agreed. Fascinating article. E-tron almost feels like a no go at this point.

JAD | February 11, 2019

Sad thing is there are quite a few people who want an EV now, just don't want a Tesla for various reasons. They ask what I recommend and other than maybe the Bolt for some people, there isn't anything. I say maybe the Porsche, but the specs I am seeing, put it years behind Tesla for range and performance. The big boys are getting close to 2012 Tesla, maybe a few more years and they will only be a decade behind.

coleAK | February 11, 2019

^^^ I agree no one is close to Tesla in terms of cars. I think that’s why The EV truck segment is positioned to explode since Tesla isn’t there yet.

But JAD “...getting close to 2012 Tesla, maybe a few more years and they will only be a decade behind”. Did I pass out and it’s 2023?

TM3Q | February 11, 2019

Please stop using the word E-Tron as for me it means « shit » in french or if you like the word « turd or feces» lolll

PrimeTime | February 11, 2019

étron. Je ris à haute voix.

gballant4570 | February 11, 2019

Finally realization sets in.....long ICE experience, people, facilities, supply chains, etc....are likely a net negative when it comes to producing a compelling elegant EV. Too much prior baggage. the same thing has been killing new generation nuclear power. Start with a clean slate. Even Morgan Stanley is realizing this - I recently saw an article about how Tesla will b e seeing "serious competition" real soon - the only company mentioned was Rivian, another start up. Moran Stanley (or someone in that org) was quoted as finally seeing the same thing. Rivian, as a clean slate start up, was the only recognized "serious competition".

jordanrichard | February 11, 2019

Rivian is not "serious competition". They are still 2 years away form producing their truck. They are focusing on a niche market (serious off roading) within a niche market (EVs)

tanya | February 11, 2019

But that Taycan looks so good!

jordanrichard | February 11, 2019

So don’t vintage Jags...... Lucas, Prince of darkness, party of one.........

gballant4570 | February 11, 2019

jordanrichard, neither are any of the others in myriad articles we've all been seeing these last several years.....

The point is that Rivian, as a clean slate startup, is now being seen as an organization that has a better chance to be serious competition one day than legacy car companies, despite their sudden interest.

jordanrichard | February 11, 2019

Gballant4570, true because like Tesla, Rivian doesn’t have the bagge of engine plants, ICE related supply train, etc.

Though with regard to Rivian, they still haven’t announced how they are expecting to sell their trucks, be it through dealers or directly like Tesla.

minervo.florida | February 11, 2019

Rivian is a super long shot to become a major player, especially in the next 10 years. They need money, more money and then 10 times that amount. Odds are surely against them. How about service , big concern, spare parts, sales, money for 4 years of free service, etc.

minervo.florida | February 11, 2019

Rivian is a super long shot to become a major player, especially in the next 10 years. They need money, more money and then 10 times that amount. Odds are surely against them. How about service , big concern, spare parts, sales, money for 4 years of free service, etc.

jordanrichard | February 11, 2019

Well, Tesla was a long shot as well, so we really shouldn’t discount them for that. I just think is it quite premature to start citing them as serious competition to Tesla. Tesla had a plan in place for the supercharger network and how to sell their cars and told people about it. This gave them legimatcy and people confidence about buying their products. As I said Rivian hasn’t spoken about any of that.

Mike UpNorth | February 11, 2019

And Tesla had Elon.......

inconel | February 11, 2019

And think some of the new Chinese EV manufacturers have a much better shot than Rivian at being serious competitors.

lunde | February 11, 2019

What Mike UpNorth wrote.

JustSaying | February 11, 2019

@jordanrichard " Lucas, Prince of darkness, party of one...…"

Lucas Electrics ,why do English drink warm beer, because Lucas made their refrigerators...
:-D,
My 1976 Lancia Beta Coupe had the original anti theft device - Lucas Electrics, a fun drive if you could get it started...

coleAK | February 11, 2019

Many of the things you all are saying about Rivian. Same things were said about Tesla ten years ago.

And as per @jordanrichard. “They are focusing on serious off road”. Jeep sells a ton of wranglers that never go off road and Ford sells every Raptor they build that also very few go off road. Seems to me like Rivian is going after the very lucrative truck market.

coleAK | February 11, 2019

Many of the things you all are saying about Rivian. Same things were said about Tesla ten years ago.

And as per @jordanrichard. “They are focusing on serious off road”. Jeep sells a ton of wranglers that never go off road and Ford sells every Raptor they build that also very few go off road. Seems to me like Rivian is going after the very lucrative truck market.

Cata | February 11, 2019

@JAD one option which I went for before reserving my M3 is the eGolf. I seriously enjoyed that car. It's nimble, high quality and has about 250 km range. Now my wife drives it and she loves it. Interesting thing is that when I took it for its first maintenance they said there's a one year wait list for it. It seems that a lot of people are interested in it. I would be curious to see how many of those will switch to Tesla now that they caught up with their backlog.

tew ms us | February 12, 2019

In a discussion about the recent upgrade of Tesla stock by Canaccord Genuity, one analyst says pickup truck owners are the most loyal buyers you can find. If Ford can bring an electric F150 to market, any other electric pickup maker will have trouble shaking current owners loose.

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/02/11/why-one-analyst-thinks-teslas-stoc...

billtphotoman | February 12, 2019

The one area where I can see Mercedes/Audi/BMW having an advantage over Tesla is in expertise in building really quiet cars. But, I think Tesla will close that gap more quickly than the legacy OEMs will close the gaps they have with Tesla in EV power train expertise, battery prices and software.

Kathy Applebaum | February 12, 2019

"Please stop using the word E-Tron as for me it means « shit » in french"

You would think a European car manufacturer would have _someone_ on staff who knew that... Sigh.

Brings to mind the Chevy Nova having to be renamed in Spanish speaking countries. LOL

TAC | February 12, 2019

Audi vaporware in the action!

jordanrichard | February 12, 2019

billtphotoman, you want to know the "secret" behind those car's quietness.....? A crap load of sound deadening material. It is nothing magical. Any and I mean any car can sound like it is built from granite and shelter it from outside noise by conspicuous use of stuff like Dyno-mat. I once owned a 1983 Mercedes-Benz 380SL. When you closed the doors on that car, it took some effort due to the heaviness of the doors. Well I had to replace the driver's side door check because it was making a clicking noise. So with the old one removed, the door was light as a feather and took hardly any effort to close it. Also the skin of the door was completely lined with a dyno-mat type material.

JAD | February 12, 2019

@Cata, the e-Golf is an OK car, but at basically the same price as the Model 3, you get less than half the range, a pathetic 0-60 time and little charging infrastructure. A decent city car, but not a car you can live with as an only vehicle.

@ColeAK, comparing the basic specs of the 2012 Tesla P85, 0-60 in 4 seconds, 265 miles range from a 85 kwh battery versus the 2020 Taycon 0-60 in 3.5 seconds, 250 miles range, 90 kwh battery (in a smaller car), the 2020 Taycan is comparable to the 2012 Tesla, but compared to the 2014 P85D, and the Taycan loses virtually every performance/range comparison and needs to rely on Porsche 'heritage and quality' claims to offer any advantage that I can see. Maybe not a full decade behind, but close.....

TM3Q | February 12, 2019

@Kathy Applebaum

In 2019 I just hope they can access to google in Europe :-)

Before it was more difficult to catch theses errors but now hummmm...no excuses haha

Vive l’internet :-)

coleAK | February 12, 2019

@JAD. I was just giving you a hard time. I fully agree all the other EV’s are well behind Tesla and will take a while to catch up. That is unless the “big ones” start putting major capital towards EV RnD. Which at this point in time I don’t really see happening soon.

SamO | February 12, 2019

Rivian is an acquisition play so that GM/Ford can play catchup. It's a cool truck and has some nice features. My question is always . . . where do they get the batteries for more than a few thousand?

If they stay independent, they'd best get onto the Tesla Supercharging Network.

coleAK | February 12, 2019

^^^ probably from Panasonic like Tesla. Or I’ve always thought Tesla’s long term play may be to sell batteries to everyone.

RedPillSucks | February 12, 2019

What about the Hyundai Kona EV? I think it will directly compete with the Bolt and will get the people waiting for the $35k Tesla if that gets delayed past this year.

howard | February 12, 2019

Tesla has some admitted serious sustainability issues coming in the not to distant future when those willing to pay double for a base EV disappear. Elon is fully aware of this which is why he is trying to get the premium/ performance models into the rest of the world market as fast as humanly possible. The rest of the industry will indeed catch up. There are no secrets at this point. Tesla has been the leader and exposed what the path looks like for all to research and learn from. I for one wish the best to all EV ventures.

finman100 | February 12, 2019

and suppliers of gas mobiles don't have sustainability issues? huh. interesting.

howard | February 12, 2019

Maybe I should have used the term viability.

jordanrichard | February 12, 2019

Howard, they are selling the higher priced version in Europe because they need more 3’s sold to fully realize economies of scale to be able to sell the $35K version. Also, shipping cars to Europe is considerably more expense than putting them on a train from CA to NY. So naturally that erodes their margin on exported vehicles.

sroh | February 12, 2019

Kathy Applebaum | February 12, 2019
" "Please stop using the word E-Tron as for me it means « shit » in french"
You would think a European car manufacturer would have _someone_ on staff who knew that... Sigh.
Brings to mind the Chevy Nova having to be renamed in Spanish speaking countries. LOL"

This brings to mind the hilarious uproar when they decided to syndicate the show 'Joanie Loves Chachi' to South Korea.

I recognize this is a bit obscure....

spuzzz123 | February 12, 2019

crud Howard what are you going to do? You’ve already invested so much in your mp3 and you probably also have plenty invested in Tesla stock. Now that Tesla is going under how are you going to cut your losses?

howard | February 12, 2019

I am certainly counting on Tesla succeeding just as I am with my Rivian deposit. It is important for all the EV avenues to be successful. Good for everyone. Just being realistic. 1 performance model sale probably has 10 times the margin of the base model. Base model is going to be very hard for anybody to make money on until the industry has matured and has a 100 fold increase in overall annual EV sales volume.

jordanrichard | February 12, 2019

Howard, the issue is with other OEMs EVs and yes the Rivian, is without a proper and convienant DC fast charging network, there existence will only exasperate the notion that EV are not for long distance travel and should only be bought as a second vehicle to run errands in state.

Wether people actually go on long distance trips is completely irrelevant because people based on what a car’s capabilities. How many ICE cars do you think would sell if they only came to 2 gallon gas tanks, which would cover the avg daily commute.

howard | February 12, 2019

jordanrichard, I respectfully and strongly disagree. I have owned 3 EVs in a row and could care less about the super charging network. The target market which is vast by comparison is charging at home and office. Highway long distance travel will mature with demand and it will not be based on a single OEM distribution system like Tesla.

coleAK | February 12, 2019

@howard I fully agree. The closest super charger to my house is over 2200 miles away. It’s farther than driving from Atlanta to San Diego. Almost 5 years of my wife driving an EV ( model s then 3)

sroh | February 12, 2019

Big kudos to @coleAK. That is awesome man!

walnotr | February 12, 2019

Agree, big props to @coleAK for driving Tesla’s in AK. How many trips to Fairbanks or even Homer have you made?

coleAK | February 12, 2019

Fairbanks, Not in the Tesla :). Only 3 places to charge between Anchorage and Fairbanks. All are RV hookups (slow charging) none are turned on in the winter. We had a 2012 base S before the AWD LR 3 so much less range. Seward and back is very doable in the summer took the 3 to homer last fall. Got there and plugged in at homer spit campground for 6 hours to get back.

Honistly though for around SE so Mat-Su to Girdwood it is perfect. Really the only time we go farther than that we’re in the camper anyway.

jordanrichard | February 12, 2019

Howard, step outside of the EV bubble for a moment. If people didn’t car about the road trip capabilities of an EV, then the Leaf and Bolt would have been selling a lot more. YOU may not care, but obviously the rest of the general car buying public does.

As I am sure you have been asked countless times, when I have been asked about range and I tell them 265 miles, they often cite how much further their gas car can go. The other reaction I get to my 265, “.....oh, that’s not bad”.
“Not bad”? Statistically that is 6 times the average daily commute. Why do think these comments are so common? As I said, people don’t buy based on what they actually need or use, but the capabilities of the vehicle. Just how many SUVs actually leave the road? How many Lamborghinis and Ferraris actually hit their tops speeds here in the U.S., etc. etc. etc.

Any EV that isn’t equal in capabilities (speed and travel) to an ICE car is only going to reinforce the limitation of EVs. That is why they built out the supercharger network and have been coming up with Insane and Ludicrous modes. I mean, who needs a family sedan to hit 60 mph in 2.4 seconds.....?

Again, we all need to periodically step outside of this Tesla/EV bubble and see how the “general public” sees things.

howard | February 12, 2019

I am the general public at least one of millions. 2012 Bolt. One of the very first Bolts. Tesla has a lot going for it but Super Chargers was not one to me. Miles is akin to HP, 0-60, payload, towing capacity. Lots of sales are made from these tantalizing marketing gems but they are not how most purchases are used. Nowhere near in most cases. Mine is bigger faster goes farther caries more tows more........but wait I charge mine every day at my office. The 35 mile range of my Volt served me well for nearly 4 years. I guess I spent a bunch of money I did not need too. Go figure?

howard | February 12, 2019

2012 Volt. Too late

walnotr | February 13, 2019

@coleAK, definitely a chicken and egg situation up there. Not enough Tesla’s up there to justify superchargers and not enough superchargers to encourage more of them. It certainly would be nice if Tesla would roll out an even limited supercharger network up there to encourage more of them.

burdogg | February 13, 2019

howard - i think you are still missing jordanrichards point - or just want to not acknowledge it. Yes, we get you and your situation and care. But majority (you are not the majority) do care about how far and can you go visit someone in another state - even if that is only once every 5 years. It is the IDEA to the majority even if they will never ever use the superchargers. And no - people don't want to have to have a second car for their 1 time a year trip they make. So the car they buy needs to be able to do that - and no - majority don't fly either (another case I hear around here). Majority, not minority - and your thoughts are the minority - like it or not :)

Jordanrichard hit it on the head - people are always asking how far can you go - and how do you charge on a trip - those are what the majority of people that talk to me about it ask. SO obviously they DO care about how you get 300+ miles to visit places or take trips...

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