Forums

TIRE WEAR--CAMBER-- TOE IN

TIRE WEAR--CAMBER-- TOE IN

ANY COMMENTS

AmpedRealtor | August 31, 2015

I seem to have a terrible case of camber-toe...

J.T. | August 31, 2015

@Deep South lolachampcar has posted extensively on this topic and he is expert on it. Go to www.vlkerize.com and search for lolachampcar camber.

J.T. | August 31, 2015

Www.volkerize.com

staze | August 31, 2015
Kondo | August 31, 2015

As lolachampcar suggested, I went to a local tire shop and had my rear 20" hankooks switched from left to right. I had 17,000 miles so far and figure I can get another 5,000 at least doing this ... and all for $31. I have a P85 with staggered wheels.

Dr. Bob Reinke | September 2, 2015

After going through 1 set of 21s and 2 sets of 19s, in 9,000 mi on our Signature P85 while Tesla re-aligned the front and rear wheels several times to Tesla specs.
Days after delivery, showing signs of wear on the rear inside of all tires. We took our new P85D to a local alignment shop we have used for 50 years. He immediately said you got Mercedes suspension under that Tesla, we fix at least one of these those things a week. That alignment is designed to go fast around turns and to buy tires by the car-load. They kept the car overnight and for $200 Did a re-alignment that required slotting and liquid welding the mounting of the upper control arms in proper place; thereby, removing the excessive negative camber. After noting a huge handling improvement, took the Signature in too. Both Tesla now drive like a dream. No darting around like a rubber ball on Walkers ruts and potholes. 29000 miles on Signature 19 tires now--no signs of wear. Suggest taking your Tesla to an alignment shop that has read the Tire Rack Alignment Brief

TiburonTesla | September 2, 2015

Dr Bob, does that tire shop happen to be in the SF bay area? i'd like to send them some more business..... (as I prep to buy my 3rd set of 21's in 2.5 years)

roseanne_rosanadana | September 2, 2015

This is just not an appropriate topic for this message board. Whether or not someone's camel toe is "in" or "out" is very personal and should not be a topic of conversation here. Next thing you know, someone will post pictures and that would just be dis-gus-ting.

I for one think that every woman is unique and should always try to dress themselves in an appropriate way to keep it a mystery whether they are an "inny" or an "outty".

-Roseanne

sbeggs | September 2, 2015

@roseanne, nice to see you back after all these years...

Care to post how you chose your forum name?

brad | September 2, 2015

@roseanne_rosanadana

You said "Whether or not someone's camel toe is "in" or "out" is very personal and should not be a topic of conversation here."

I think you may have misunderstood that this thread is about tire wear from "camber-toe-in", not "camel toe".

Correct toe is paramount to even tread wear and extended tire life. If the tires are pointed inward or outward, they will scrub against the surface of the road and cause wear along the edges. Sometimes however, tread life can be sacrificed for performance or stability

roseanne_rosanadana | September 2, 2015

Never mind.

AmpedRealtor | September 2, 2015

@ Dr. Bob Reinke,

Your alignment shop basically reduced the rear tire camber, but that's not really necessary if you don't drive aggressively. I have not taken any of your measures, yet my 19" Michelin Primacy tires still have 6/32 tread after 31,000 miles. Based upon the remaining tread, my tires should easily last 40,000-45,000 miles. All of my alignments have been performed by Tesla to perfection.

sbeggs | September 2, 2015

@roseanne,
Haha...

dglauz | September 2, 2015

Amped: check the wear on the inside edge of the tire. My car is about same vintage as yours (3 months older) and at about that mileage threads started to show.

vlad22 | September 2, 2015

@dr bob.. Have you had your car on an icy road since this was performed? Also, liquid welding doesn't sound to me like something one should do to a control arm of a vehicle for a myriad of reasons. A lot of performance vehicles are cambered on the rear axle for not only handling but also stability. Changing alignment angles drastically will reduce tire wear but could lead to dire consequences on slippery surfaces such as ice. Not an expert on tesla alignments but have pretty good industry and hands on knowledge about the subject.

Dr. Bob Reinke | September 5, 2015

@vlad22 The liquid weld was used to fill and lock the slotting formed to bring the negative camber to under 1 degree, close to "0". (should be measured with the suspension set in whatever height you drive most of your miles) (did mine in low} Hard turn lean causes more negative camber from suspension geometry. Extensive talk with Tesla service has approved the reduction of excessive racing camber on the rear wheels as explained in TireRack spec-sheet on wheel alignment (Tesla Service is not allowed to drift from Tesla Specs. Their fix is to use excessive tow-out using another mis-alignment to correct a non-adjustable alignment. Excessive negative camber and toe-out may make the car go fast around corners but both errors rip the tread off the tires. Contrary to your concern, both of our Model S are now very much more manageable on icy and wet roads. Excessive camber as both my Tesla came with from the factory causes the rear of the car to jump around, like a rubber ball, each time there is roughness or bump in the road. All the constant steering correcting the car's direction are gone and I have been unable to detect any tire-wear. As I have told the Chicago Tesla service manager: It is now a pleasure to drive. Keep in mind that most of us are not going around in circles on a smooth race track.

lolachampcar | September 5, 2015

I've not consulted the Tire Rack alignment guide so I am at a bit of a disadvantage here.....

I have reviewed the emergency maneuver requirements in FMVS 126 which require cars to survive yanking the wheel from side to side at reasonable speed with a dwell between one of the wheel inputs (section II.C.1 Oversteering Test Maneuver). A quick Google search will get you the PDF. Basically, the maneuver gets the back moving like a pendulum and the vehicle dynamics have to arrest its tendency to swap ends.

Selective use of the rear brakes does a fantastic job of arresting throttle induced oversteer but it is nowhere near as valuable in handing the above described pendulum test. European manufacturers have learned that negative camber allows the car to effectively roll onto more tire patch when heavily side loaded thus providing oversteer margin. I believe this is why Tesla has the negative camber in the rear, not because they want to imitate race car geometry and sell cars that eat up rear tires.

One of the questions for me became just how much rear camber does the MS require? The coil suspended cars sit higher than the air spring cars which would lead me to believe they would swap ends more easily yet they carry less rear negative camber. I garnered two things from this; first, MS requires about one degree of negative camber to be safe and two, Tesla wanted to have just one set of suspension for both the coil and air cars to ease production configuration and control inventory costs. I have always had air cars so my task became how to get to one degree of negative camber.

I looked at the rear of the car and increasing the length of the upper link was/is the standard alignment solution for this type of suspension. I considered slotting the upper inboard mounting ears and using offset bushings to position the upper link just a little further out (which pushes out the top of the upright and reduces negative camber) but really did not like the idea of grinding away on the car's suspension pick up points (for safety and resale reasons). The next logical choice was longer arms which I made. I was lucky in that you can increase the uppers 0.210" and still have enough toe adjustment to set near zero toe in on the rear (also affects tire wear). I did some 0.250" links but ran out of toe adjustment and had to abandon the idea. The 210 links removed a degree of negative camber and tire life on my P+ was about 18K on the stock Pilots.

I did have one car where we could not get the toe adjusted on one side with the 210 links. It turned out that the at the motor cradle was installed slightly askew and simply loosing the mounting bolts allowed ti to pop back into a neutral position within the chassis and evened up the toe adjustment range side to side.

I’m now on MS #3 with the above work and have been happy as a clam. My wife’s car remains with the stock rear geometry as her’s is a coil car running stock ride height.

The above is just my experience and is by no means the definitive word on the subject. I hope it helps.

Bill

Dennis | September 5, 2015

thanks for the info Lolachampcar. i'm getting the gear together to perform the adjustments you described. i have a hammer, philips head screwdriver and a putty knife. do you think i can get by on that equipment? do you think i should purchase a lever as well?

lolachampcar | September 5, 2015

Sir
Please step away from the tools before something gets hurt....

J.T. | September 5, 2015

:-)

lolachampcar | October 17, 2017

Update.
I have adjustable links to set desired ride height in combination with running the car in "Always Low". A recent software update erased this setting. I learned this when I noticed the car was less stable in a straight line. I checked the ride height and it was returning to normal every time the car started up.

One of the ways I try to control tire wear in the rear even with negative camber is to reduce scrub by running as little rear toe as possible. I run near zero total toe in on the rear of my D. This setting used to make me RWD S' a bit more lively at highway speeds with them tending to hunt or trammel following any imperfections in the road (grooving and the like). The AWD S does much better with near zero rear toe and is stable.

Just like there are camber changes with changes in ride height due to unequal suspension arm lengths, some cars can have toe changes with ride height. In the race car world it is called bump steer for obvious reasons. Given that my 85D starts to hunt more in normal ride height, I suspect the Model S has some bump steer where you get some toe in on the wheel as it is pushed up. This would make sense as the loaded rear wheel would tend to turn into the corner (toe out in the rear while corning makes for a very lively car to drive).

So, just an observation. If you are doing like I am and running near zero rear toe be wary of changes in stability due to increased ride height.

lolachampcar | October 17, 2017

If it was not clear above, I think I am getting some toe out in the rear when my car is run above "Low".

Tropopause | October 17, 2017

Lola,

I was taking your suggestion and having Tesla set my rear toe to near zero (which is still in the "green" allowable range) on my RWD 85 with 21" wheels. The results were great with less tire scrub/wear. The drive always felt stable to me but I am not a pro-driver.

Now I have a new PD-model Tesla and have noticed all four tires have initially worn a bit on the inside, measuring 9/9/8 all around after nearly 1,000 miles. SvC says this is normal for 21" staggered wheels on performance models. Maybe I will try your rear toe advice on the new car as well. Not sure about the front though. I might have SvC perform an alignment even though the car is still new with factory-set alignment.

Always nice to read your info here, Lola. Thanks!

lolachampcar | October 17, 2017

I think front camber may be adjustable :)