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Gull wing / falcon wing Doors

Gull wing / falcon wing Doors

I share opinion that these funny looking doors are not practical. There is no need to stand in the car, roof storage is important to all of us who are used to wagons and suvs, and if it is that good why do all doors not open as falcon wing? Just like in an expensive Mercedes. I am concerned about picture at Tesla site where a model X is with open doors in a garage and if not centered right the door opener in the ceiling would have hit one of the doors. Reminds of some of commercials by insurance companies where roof items hit the garage doors.

Ratan

Red Sage ca us | 8 septembre 2014

Here the thing is... How many cyclists are decapitated when riding perpendicular to a row of cars in a parking lot by running into the open hatch at the rear of a minivan or SUV? Somehow, I don't think that is too much of a problem.

Svenssons | 8 septembre 2014

@Red Sage: I can not see any new problem either or any real problem with the falcon doors. I have never heard of any decapitation of an open hatch and these usually open further out from the car.

Pictures of open hatch on SUV:s:

https://www.google.se/search?q=suv+open+hatch&es_sm=93&source=lnms&tbm=i...

NumberOne | 8 septembre 2014

++ @Red Sage and Svenssons

vperl | 8 septembre 2014

Come on, you want to haul U-Haul trailers, bikes,a boat, get a 3/4 pickup.

Also, if bicyclists cannot accept any responsibility for their a actions, why point at the car. I rode bikes miles and hundreds of miles all over the county I grew up in, always knew the car could kill me, so I made sure to be safe, I never challenged a car or truck. Something that is missing in our new world of having the thoughts bike riders need not stop and follow STATE DMV regulations.

Also,I DID NOT wear a Helmut, no one wore bike hats,helmet or red flags.

Also, many of us ran with scissors, and sharp pencils, if you know what a pencil is ?

I, as many, knew risks, and avoided them without government regulations. I am sure someone has a pet peav, like government interference in my daily activities, and taxes we know not we are paying till you get the bill.

I move forward knowing that the politicians keep their jobs no matter how poorly they perform.

Iowa92x | 8 septembre 2014

Personal responsibility, if a biker runs into a car, it is their fault.

pvetesla | 8 septembre 2014

Maybe we can change the name of the Tesla to the Darwin after it proves his
theory with all the decapitated idiots.

FYI...I joke because I find the idea preposterous.

Red Sage ca us | 8 septembre 2014

pvetesla: +1 UP! ...and I laugh because that was genuinely funny!

georgehawley.fl.us | 8 septembre 2014

Underneath the humor and hyperbole, cyclists get killed in accidents involving car doors all too frequently:
The Door Prize: Cyclists killed by dooring
by Rhys Southan, Ampersandy, and Michael Bluejay • Last update: March 2013
This is a list of cyclists killed because of motorists opening their doors in the cyclist's path.
They're presented both to show cyclists how important it is for them to not ride in the door zone, but also to provide ammunition to convince local governments not to do stupid things like allowing cars to park in bike lanes, as is done in Austin, Texas.

Neill Townsend (October 5, 2012, Chicago, IL)
Age 32. Swerved to avoid a car door opened in his path, then fell under the wheels of a passing semi truck and killed. "This is why I don't ride a bike in the city. I'm too afraid," said Tara Werling, 18, shivering as she stood near the scene of the collision. "The bike lanes are too narrow. You're right up against the cars. If someone opens a door, you have to swerve." And, she added, "no helmet is going to save you when you go up against a car." Chicago Tribune
George E. Schilling (November 26, 2010, Woodbury Heights, NJ)
Age 57, killed when he crashed his bicycle into the open door of a truck parked on the shoulder of Evergreen Ave. Pronounced dead at the hospital. The vehicle's owner was partially sitting in the truck when the collision happened. Gloucester County Times
Marcus Ewing (October 22, 2010, New York City, NY)
Ewing, a 27 year old social worker, was killed when a driver opened his car door and knocked the cyclist into the path of an oncoming truck. NY Daily News
Jasmine Herron (September 11, 2010, Brooklyn, NY)
Jasmine Herron, 23, an artist and barista, was hit when a driver in a parked car opened her door. The impact propelled Ms. Herron into the path of a B45 bus, which struck her and then ran over her. NY Times
Erik Fitzpatrick (May 19, 2010, Oakland, CA)
Law student Erik Fitzpatrick, 35, was bicycling eastbound on MacArthur when he swerved to avoid the door of a black Chrysler Pacifica that was being opened by a 42-year-old Manteca woman. Fitzpatrick hit the car door, then bounced off it into the back of the bus, and was pinned underneath it. He was taken to a hospital, where he died. SF Gate
Megan Charlop (March 17, 2010, Bronx, NY)
Megan Charlop, 57, a public health advocate was bicycling to work when she swerved to avoid an opening car door. A city bus struck her, killing her instantly. Bronx News
Stanley Wang (June 2008, Moorestown, NJ)
Stanley L. Wang, 67, former general counsel for Comcast, was bicycling east on East Main Street at 12:20 p.m. He started to pass a parked pickup truck when the driver of the truck opened his door. Wang hit the door and was knocked from his bike into the street, where he was struck by an eastbound car that was also passing the truck. He was pronounced dead at Kennedy Memorial Hospital. Biz Journals
father, 57, name withheld (May 22, 2008, Toronto, Canada)
The 57-year-old cyclist was riding along Eglinton Ave. when a woman opened her door without looking. Police say the man hit the door, lost control of his bike, fell onto the road and was struck by a truck shortly after 1 p.m. He died in hospital. The Star: Article 1, 2
David Smith (December 5, 2007, Manhattan, NY)
Bicyclist David Smith, 63, died after he struck an open car door, fell off his bicycle and landed in the street, where he was hit by a truck. NY Times
Suman Ghosh (December 16, 2008, Calcutta)

A driver opened his door in Ghosh's path, knocking Ghosh to the ground, where a bus ran over his head. He was 38. Telegraph India
Clinton Miceli (June 9, 2008, Chicago)

An SUV driver opened his door in Miceli's path. Micele hit the door, landed in traffic, and was run over by another vehicle and killed. He was 22 years old. Chicago Tribune
Elizabeth Padilla (June 9, 2005, Brooklyn)

28-year old Liz Padilla was killed June 9, 2005 in Park Slope after swerving from a truck's open car door and hitting another truck. visual resistance, NY Daily News
Dell Covington (Nov. 18, 2004, Manhattan)

At 10:45 a.m., on November 18, 2004, Bike Messenger Dell Covington, 42, of Woodhaven, Brooklyn, was riding north on Eighth Avenue near 49th Street. He tried to negotiate a narrow space between a double-parked delivery truck and a police prisoner transport van. That's when he slammed into a door opened by one of the deliverymen in the truck, according to the police account. ahalenia.com
Lucas Cox (Sept. 16, 2002, New Orleans)

On Sept. 16, 2002, 33-year-old Lucas Cox was riding his bicycle on Camp Street, where he was forced to swerve out into traffic to avoid an opening car door. The abrupt move forced him into the path of an 18-wheel truck that killed him instantly. Best of New Orleans
Dana Laird (July 2, 2002, Cambridge, MA)

Dana Laird, a 36 year old doctoral student at Tufts, was killed in front of 501 Massachusetts Avenue when a driver opened the door of an SUV across the bike lane. She swerved, hit the door, fell, and was run over by a bus which killed her instantly. BikExprt #1, #2, #3; Boston Phoenix
Keith Provost (June 24, 2001, Vancouver)

On June 24, 2001, 40 year-old actor Keith Provost was killed during a bike ride in Vancouver when someone opened their car door without looking. Provost's bicycle slammed into open car door, he travelled another 5 meters before landing on his upper body. He died of head injuries the next day. BicycleSafe
Philip Slipakoff (Jan. 6, 1998, New Orleans)

Killed when his bicycle was knocked into path of moving vehicle after the door of parked car swung open. Door Zone Project
Andreas Karayiannis (Oct. 4, 1997, Cyprus)

Sixty-eight-year-old Andreas Karayiannis died in a dooring accident on October 4, 1997 in Nicosia, Cyprus. The man was cycling down Nikis avenue when a door from a parked car swung open and knocked him off balance. As Karayiannis fell to the ground, he was hit by the passing car and killed. hri.org
Brian Thang Yiean Wong (July 18, 1997, Toronto, Ontario)

Age 29, killed when his bicycle hit an open van door and he was thrown into path of a school bus. Door Zone Project
Rosemarie Brodie (Oct. 28, 1996, Manhattan)

Rosemarie Brodie, 33, of East 85th St., was doored off her bike and thrown into the path of a van that ran over her on York Ave. near 72nd St. in the morning of Oct. 28, 1996. cars-suck.org
Clyde Moss (Oct. 16, 1996, Manhattan)

Clyde Moss of Brooklyn, 52, a daily bike commuter for 30 years, was doored off his bike and thrown into the path of a truck that ran over him on Church St. near Franklin St. in lower Manhattan just before 8 a.m. transalt, cars-suck.org
Eugene Chang (Aug. 19, 1994, San Francisco)

Killed while commuting. At 9:30 a.m., a car door suddenly opened in his path. The top of the door primarily impacted his neck. Barry Popik
Chantal Malard (June 1994, Montreal)

In June 1994, Chantal Malard, a Montreal cyclist, was killed when a motorist opened a car door into her path. Malard hit the car door and was thrown into the path of a truck. She died on the road. magma.co/~ocbc
Winnie Stallion (March 6, 1989, Derby, UK)

Age 68, killed in Derby, UK. A car passed her and parked, and as she pulled out to pass the parked car, the driver opened the door and knocked her off her bike. She lapsed into a coma, and two days later she died. Door Zone Project
Samuel Hernandez (May 18, 1987, Santa Ana, CA)

Age 19. Killed when his bicycle was knocked into traffic by open truck door, struck by passing car. Door Zone Project
Ghost Cycle (Seattle)
It's unclear from the website whether this victim of dooring in Seattle survived or not. Ghost Cycle

What does the law say?
It's illegal for drivers to open their doors in the path of bicyclists or other road users in many, perhaps most states. For example, there's Florida, Minnesota, Oregon, Pennsylvania, and Texas, which use the Uniform Traffic Code.

So, what about Tesla? There are two ways to think about the falcon wing doors: a) most accidents appear to involve 3+ foot wide doors opening and striking the bicyclist or causing them to veer radically into traffic. In this case the falcon wing doors may be an improvement, if, as expected, they have sensors that prevent them from striking obstacles. Also, they project a far smaller distance than a conventional door, enabling an undistracted cyclist to avoid them much more easily. and b) the falcon wings do, when fully opened, present an edge that can be struck by a passing cyclist. The good news is that the edge is 6 feet and maybe 3-4 inches above the ground. This means that children will easily pass under the open door. An adult 6' tall or taller who is standing while pedaling would be at risk but would be much less likely to be distracted, lowering the probability of a collision. There will be collisions with falcon wing doors but my guess is that they will occur with much lower frequency than with conventional doors for the reasons above and because there will be relatively few Tesla MX's compared to vehicles with standard doors. The good news is that when one occurs it will be broadcast worldwide because a Tesla is involved, much like the battery fires. It will only take one bad accident to get everyone's attention.

vandacca | 8 septembre 2014

@georgehawley, IMHO, the front doors of the Model-X pose more of a threat than the Falcon Wing doors (in agreement with you), which means it's no more dangerous to cyclists than any other vehicle on the road. When the front door is open, it takes up a lot of space and a cyclist would have to make a large arc into traffic to avoid hitting it, assuming he has enough time to avoid the door. On the other hand, the Falcon Wing doors have a much lower foot print during the whole opening process, so would require much less of a change in course to avoid. Furthermore, when the 2nd row door is fully opened, it is at eye level and highly visible to tall cyclists, which should be easy to avoid by simply "ducking". BTW, I don't think the door sensors will help in this situation because a cyclist is moving far too quickly for the sensors to register their presence and react. Maybe if the rear bumper sensors were also used, there might be a chance that the doors could react in time, but I still doubt it because they don't move that quickly.

Being an avid cyclist (both road & mountain) and having been hit by a careless driver (not to mention the many close calls), I'm very cognizant of riders on the road. The biggest thing I learned after getting hit by a car is that drivers do not see cyclists as a threat (for obvious reasons). Even though a driver "sees" a cyclist, the brain doesn't actually register the cyclist because it doesn't see it as a threat. If you are riding a bike and you want a driver to register your presence, the best thing to do is to make eye contact, otherwise, they will look right past you and potentially drive right through you too.

Having said that, I don't know how any of this conversation is specific to the Model-X. Personally, I'm beginning to understand why @Teo_ was previously banned from the forum. He (I'm assuming male) seems to cross-post across multiple threads, a large number of similar posts aimed to provoke others for what seems like comments that are not really that relevant to Tesla. It might be best to simply ignore these posts and move on.

--Dan

EQC | 8 septembre 2014

Teo_:

1) Be careful with your assumptions and estimates. And keep in mind, nobody has seen the final Model X yet. All we have seen is prototypes that are now ~2 years old, and some computer generated graphics.

2) Would it not be trivial for Tesla to solve your perceived problem by simply putting a couple spot lights on the falcon doors that light up when the doors are open? Such lights would aid passengers exiting/entering in the dark, and be highly visible to bicyclists who like to speed past parked cars.

3) Why do you keep assuming that somebody loading kids into the passenger side of the car would open both falcon doors? It would make zero sense for Tesla to offer a single "door open" button on the remote that opens both doors, and there are images of Model X prototypes with a single door open -- so this is not Telsa's expected behavior for Model X owners. Anybody who opens all the doors on the car when they only need to open one is just asking for a thief to dart in on the far side of the car, steel a purse/bag/backpack/etc., and run off. With modern electronic key fobs, a thief spotting an open door could even just hop into the driver's seat and take off while the owner screams helplessly from outside a passenger-side door. Why would any owner open an extra door for no reason and risk that?

4) There are images of Elon showing the utility of the Falcon doors by standing up to nearly full height inside the Model X, under the open door. Elon is over 6' tall, I think...and he's standing nearly fully upright under the falcon door, with his feet at around ~10 inches or so off the ground (ground clearance of the X, plus thickness of battery/floor). While the outer edges of the open door are slightly lower, the doors are fairly high up. Is it really that common for tall bicyclists to somehow ride rapidly, a few inches from parked cars, and in a full-upright/standing position on top of their pedals? Are there really bikes shaped to allow this position while still being in contact with the handle bars?

5) While the falcon door does present a thin metal edge for collisions, when it is open, all the rest of the interior part of the door (thick plastic, etc.) extend ~6 inches below that metal edge. Except for the super-tallest among us, that less deadly plastic would present the more likely risk of collision.

6) Extremely tall people generally have to take extra care due to a world not designed for their height. This applies to many aspects of life. I agree that all of the responsibility for safety should NOT be placed on the cyclist -- Tesla should, and most likely will, install lights, etc. on the doors to enhance their visibility to cyclists. Maybe even proximity sensors to make the lights flash when a body is rapidly approaching. However, Tesla can't be expected to handle every extreme edge case: a person riding their bicycle, knowing that they are in the top 1% of height in the population, and managing to stand fully upright on their pedals while traveling at a high rate of speed 6 inches away from a row of cars should recognize the unnecessary risk they are taking. The situation that person chooses to create is a compounding of unusual events and is beyond what anybody (city planners, car designers, tree trimmers, etc.) would expect. Whether or not Model X falcon wing doors exist, there are a variety of other obstacles and unforeseen events that could easily take that person's life.

7) I've seen roof-racks for which the cross-pieces extend well beyond the side of the car. These pieces are black and never even have reflectors on them, much less lights....they would be impossible to see in the dark, and difficult even in the day. These bars would also be at face/head height for a greater bulk of the population than the more elevated falcon doors. Many people here complain that the falcon doors prevent roof rack installations...so while the falcon doors may add some risk for "super-tall speeding upright bicyclists who travel very close to cars," they may eliminate the "poorly installed roof rack" risk for "regularly-sized sitting bicyclists who travel very close to cars." Everything has its trade-offs....

TeoTeslaFan | 9 septembre 2014

Iowa92x, you keep saying that it is the cyclist's fault. That is incorrect. Legally it is the driver's or the passenger's fault. Where do you live?

EQC,
I'm 5'11". I'm average height. But on my bicycle I measured my height as 6'5". Is the sharp edge going to be taller than that? You could be right. It is difficult to tell from pictures.

Lights under the open doors are a must. I hope they come as standard. In MS the door lighting is optional. Inıtially it was standard.

Brian H | 9 septembre 2014

Dan;
Yeah, the first page-full promoted him to "permanent scroll-by" status for me. Next comes flagging of all posts.

pvetesla | 9 septembre 2014

+1 Dan
+1 Brian

vperl | 9 septembre 2014

Those that are riding a bike in hazardous area, heavy, or slow traffic, need to be responsible for their own safety, but now the surviving relatives cash in. No actual biker responsibility to midigate a dangerous situation. That is our world of, no responsibility and just do as one pleases. I learned along time watch, look, listen, look behind, left and right. Expect no one to see you. But, now it is the other guys fault your speeding though traffic, not obeying traffic laws.I see bikers all day long running red lights, not coming to a stop, and not signaling, or NOT looking before they change lanes.

Go luck

DTsea | 9 septembre 2014

vperl +1

TeoTeslaFan | 10 septembre 2014

Think of the cyclist as your 60 year old mum holding her bike and talking to the grandchildren next to the car in the driveway. The kids play a game running through the open doors and she has a quick chat with them before cycling off. She just got on her bike and is balancing against the car. Wouldn't you say, "Hey mum watch your head".

When people are close enough to the doors they might not look up because the doors are in the blind spot. Wouldn't you be curious to measure the height of the open doors and see if a cyclist can hit them?

I have no idea why you guys keep insisting that the cyclist is some reckless stranger riding at high speed who deserves what is coming. It could be your mum, it could be your kids, your spouse just standing on a bicycle next to the car.

Similarly, when you park parallel to the kerb in front of a shop and you see some cyclists riding between parked cars and the kerb, wouldn't you be worried about a potential accident especially considering that legally you or the passenger will be at fault? Does your insurance cover the medical expenses even if the law where you live holds the passenger responsible and not the driver? Why not check the law beforehand instead getting upset and blaming cyclists. Maybe you would close the doors instead leaving them open while the passenger picks up something from the shop.

I'm not saying let's start a campaign and boycott Tesla because these doors are dangerous to cyclists. I'm just saying maybe this is something to watch out. Maybe it is a good idea to take measurements when the car arrives and find out how much the doors stick out and how high they are from the ground and just be aware that cyclist accidents are a possibility.

I don't see anybody else talking about potential cyclist head injuries here. There is no need to be upset about this subject. Just be careful. If there is somebody in your household at 5'10" or taller and they ride a bicycle, have them stand on their bicycle under a door frame and measure their height. Then when the car arrives measure the door height. Then depending on these two numbers you can understand the risks better.

Also search for "dooring accident law California" or wherever you live. There are so many websites on this. It is a popular subject on lawyer websites. Also check with your insurance company. What happens when a family member bumps into the doors when the car is parked in front of your home. What happens when you leave the doors open when you park on the side of the road.

Is there a difference (from car insurance perspective regarding covering settlement for personal injury) between accidents that happen when opening and closing the doors and accidents that happen when you leave the doors open.

To me that seems a better approach than, "We bought a new car and my teenage daughter smashed her head against the vertically opening doors. We didn't realize the doors were low enough to hit when she was on her bicycle. If I knew I would have at least told her to wear her helmet. Her skull fractured. She is having emergency surgery today. She has to stay in hospital for 2 months. The insurance doesn't cover it either. I'll sell the car. We don't want to keep it after this anyway. It has been a nightmare".

DTsea | 10 septembre 2014

Show me the law that the motorist is at fault when a cyclist riding between the car and the curb hits an open door on the curb side.

I call BS.

DTsea | 10 septembre 2014

You cannot have doors that somebody might not find a way to walk or ride into. Nervous? Don't buy one but tesla is not going to change their design.

TeoTeslaFan | 10 septembre 2014

DTsea said: "Show me the law that the motorist is at fault when a cyclist riding between the car and the curb hits an open door on the curb side."

Check the following two pages.

http://www.bicyclelaw.com/blog/index.cfm/2012/11/14/Can-a-bicyclist-pass...

http://sfcitizen.com/blog/2009/08/24/bikes-car-doors-and-california-law-...

DTsea said: "tesla is not going to change their design"

We don't know that. There is some gap between the doors when they are open. It shouldn't be too difficult to open them slightly more until they almost touch each other.

After the fires Tesla release a software update to rise the car more from the ground and they fitted a titanium shield. This shows that Tesla will act if there is a problem. They could update the software and replace the hinge allowing the doors to open slight more if this turns out to be an issue.

Svenssons | 10 septembre 2014

@Teo_: Your blogg posts does not help your arguments. If a car is standing still and have the car doors open already, it will be the cyclist fault if he run into them. It's another thing if the doors opens just as the cyclist is passing. The falcon doors are safer in this regard because they open less out from the car and makes it easier and safer for a cyclist to pass the car.

The falcon doors on the prototype car takes about 8 seconds to open and a cyclist traveling in normal speed will be about 80 meters behind the car then the door is starting to open before the cyclist are at the car just as the falcon door is fully open. A normal car would cause more danger for a cyclist because the doors open faster and extend further out. An open hatch on a SUV cause more danger today than a falcon door does then the car starts to ship because the hatch would also extend further out.

I know that you will not change your mind, admit on any of my or others arguments and will continue to write as if Tesla is breaking the law if they do not listen to you.

TeoTeslaFan | 10 septembre 2014

Hi Svenssons,

It is interesting how people quickly make up their mind about what the other person says. You assume I don't agree with some of the things you said. Then you want me to change my mind but I already agree with some of that. Maybe you skipped reading my previous messages. I will summarize as follows:

Car door opens while cyclist passes by:
95% chance of accident with normal doors
0% chance of accident with falcon wing doors

Car door is long open before cyclist arrives:
0% chance of accident with normal doors
50% chance of accident with falcon wing doors

I don't expect any accidents to happen at all if the falcon wing doors are opening while the cyclist is passing by. Therefore I would appreciate if you and others could stop saying that the falcon wing doors won't cause any accidents if you open them while a cyclist is passing by. We agree on that.

These doors open in 8 seconds. They don't suddenly move out. They start moving up first. Therefore a cyclist would see the movement. All the accidents that I expect to happen will happen while the doors are already long open. A big part of the danger is the lack of movement while the doors are left open. This is a unique danger to falcon wing doors because regular doors wouldn't be left open and even if they are, it is not a danger because it is right in front of you. You would see them if you are not blind.

If something is moving you will definitely see it. If there is no movement sometimes people look at a direction but don't see things. While cycling, your eyes and brain quickly scan objects and make decisions. These decisions are based on familiarity of the objects we see. Our brains associate the side of the car as a danger zone because the car doors could open at any time and we don't want them to open while we are passing by.

Therefore when a cyclist approaches a Model X he will try to see through the rear window whether anybody is in the car. If there is nobody on the side he is riding, there is no danger for the doors to open. So that is one car that is already scanned. The cyclist's eye would move on to scan the next car. The cyclist doesn't know that he is supposed to look up. We are not conditioned to look up for car doors that hang in the air. If these doors were common, for example if 10% of cars had these doors, they wouldn't be a danger anymore.

Svenssons said: "If a car is standing still and have the car doors open already, it will be the cyclist fault if he run into them."

That depends on where you live. For example, check out this law:

"Rule 269(3) of the Victorian Road Safety Road Rules 2009 states it is an offence to cause a hazard to a person or a vehicle by opening a car door, leaving a door of a vehicle open, or getting off, or out of, a vehicle."

Source: https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/safety-and-road-rules/cyclist-safety/car...

Here is a video about a dooring accident. More cyclists are wearing cameras. This cyclist had two.
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/police-urged-to-charge-passenger-after...

Iowa92x | 10 septembre 2014

Teo, are you Manti Te'o?

Tesla door will have a light visible at night when raised. If a cyclist hits a parked car open door in daylight, cyclist is at fault. Same thing if a cyclist runs into a parked car bumper or tire or windshield wiper or quarter panel or another human being, the cyclist is at fault.

NumberOne | 10 septembre 2014

@Teo_ There is a special thread that someone created for you with the title starting with 'Danger of...' If you do not respond to that, I think people will stop taking you seriously.

I have looked very hard everywhere, and I have yet to find any car doors hanging in the air. So far they have all been attached to cars... I think I will continue to look where I am going even though you seem to be implying that I am immune to just about anything that can pop out of no where like parked cars and so on.

Näky | 11 septembre 2014

Teo_ try some google picture search. There is pictures of people cycling between trafic and parked cars (try: cyclist front view). Then look Model X picture, where EM stands near car: http://automobilesdaily.com/wordpress/category/electric-cars/

It seems that one needs to be about 7-8 feet tall to hit sharper edge of door while cycling. And if a person cycles so near cars, its more likely that he/she hits side mirrors and scratches paint quite often.

Red Sage ca us | 11 septembre 2014

Illustrated:

Tesla Model X

Svenssons | 11 septembre 2014

@Teo_: I don't want to change your mind, I want you to understand that other people think different than you and that you should argue, not try to bash your opinions in post after post. The doors of Model X will be open just as much as regular doors and just as stationary as stationary regular doors and is not "a unique danger to falcon wing doors" as you write.

Doors like the falcon doors exist today on most SUV:s, just take a closer look at the picture on your own link (http://sfcitizen.com/blog/2009/08/24/bikes-car-doors-and-california-law-...). If you think that 50% of all cyclist that cycle by a Model X will hit the doors you are way of. The majority of the cyclist will not even reach up to the door in the first place. The ones that will be high enough will either not ride as close to the car as needed (steering handle of the cycle maximum a couple of inch from the car) or make sure they will be able to cycle close to the car and therefor see the open door.

As I have said, the doors of the Model X does not present any new problems for the cyclist. They are safer than regular doors for most cyclist in most situations and share the same problems with open hatches on SUV even if the problems on Model X probably are less because they extend less out from the car.

TeoTeslaFan | 11 septembre 2014

Näky said: "It seems that one needs to be about 7-8 feet tall to hit sharper edge of door while cycling."

If Elon is 6', it is hard to tell from that picture if there is more than 6'5" clearance. An average height person like me who is 5'11" measures 6'5" on the bicycle. Try out for yourself. It is easy to measure. Stand on your bicycle under a door frame.

For the Model S there is a specs page here but there is nothing similar yet for the Model X.
http://www.teslamotors.com/models/specs

I don't know for sure that the doors are low enough to hit. I'm just saying let's test it when there is a chance to do that. Then depending on that information people can do a couple of things differently.

For example they can gather family members together who cycle and are 5'10 or over and have them stand under the open doors for them to be aware of the danger. Maybe some people will change where they park the car. They might decide to open only one door instead both. They might add some reflectors to the open doors.

Even some hanging decoration like this one would be enough to prevent any accidents because it adds motion to a standing object that might be overlooked and brings down the height so you would obviously see it. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003WMIYLU

Näky, I think your argument about side mirrors is a good one. I like this argument because it refers to measurable facts. It would be even more impressive if you actually looked at some pictures like this one which shows that the mirrors won't stick much. They add maybe 2 inches.

In a few messages above I attached a video in which Elon said the doors go out about a foot. According my calculations they stick out 14 inches from the widest point of the car which is the side of the tires.

Based on tests and measurements on my bicycle, you have to be 6 inches close to the car to hit the doors. What does this mean? Wouldn't I hit the mirrors first? No I wouldn't because as you can see they don't stick out 6 inches. Wouldn't I hit the window with my handlebar? No I wouldn't because the side windows are far away from the widest point of the car. My knees would hit the tires first.

To summarize if your knees and feet are within 6 inches of the tires, your head could hit the open doors. Does this happen often? In city traffic it sometimes happens.

This is based on the assumption that the clearance is 6'5". A bicycle adds 6 inches to your height. That part is not an assumption. I measured it. An average tall person at 5'11" would hit the doors at 6'5".

If the clearance is 7", then it would be very different because you would have to be 6'4" which is an extreme height. If there is 7" clearance I will be first to admit that the doors are no danger to cyclists.

Iowa92x said: "If a cyclist hits a parked car open door in daylight, cyclist is at fault."

OK then when it happens you can pretend like nothing happened and ignore the cyclist lying on the ground. I wonder if that will impress the jury when the case comes before the court.

There is case here. The settlement was 2.4 million. I guess we will see you and your model X in the news too with that kind of approach to cyclists.
http://www.planetizen.com/node/69924

TeoTeslaFan | 11 septembre 2014

Edit: I meant to say 6'10" instead 7'.

If the clearance is 6'5" then it is a danger but if the clearance is 6'10" then it is not a danger.

vperl | 11 septembre 2014

If biker is so inclined to not, look, listen, and obey traffic laws, signals,and common sense and general stupidity.... Darwin was again correct.

So, those that cannot, will not be proactive in their own safety, Darwin wins again, stupid self absorbed clowns get hurt. Darwin proved his point.

Go figure.

TeoTeslaFan | 11 septembre 2014

vperl I'm glad Franz von Holzhausen didn't know your thoughts on cyclists. He would have stopped designing cars and switched to designing tables and chairs. Your approach is so smart and inspiring. I'm speechless.

I took some measurements from the pictures. This is not a precise way of measuring. Therefore to reduce the margin of error I used two different pictures with two different reference points. The results are not too far. Some of the measurements are a little off because the Model X in Elon's garage has ticker doors.

The reference point in this picture is the height of the Model S which is 56.5" according to the specs page here: http://www.teslamotors.com/models/specs

The measurements in this second image are based on the distance between center of rear wheels. The specs page says it is 66.9" for the Model S. It will be the same for X because both share the same platform.

Sharp edge:
A 6 feet tall cyclist is 6'6" on a bicycle and can hit the sharp edge.

Lowest part:
5'6" cyclists are 6 feet on a bicycle and can hit the lowest part of the door.

Therefore any cyclist 5'6" or taller is at risk. To put that into perspective on average 14 year old buys and 15 year old girls would be tall enough.

In the pictures I added highest point measurements too. I thought I might add those as well while I'm at it. It is irrelevant to this subject but should give an idea for required garage height.

TeoTeslaFan | 11 septembre 2014

Red Sage,

In the image you added Elon's head doesn't reach the lowest part of the door. However Franz von Holzhausen is taller and if my measurements are correct he should hit the doors. In this picture it looks like he does:

I found a topic here about this specific subject:
http://www.teslamotors.com/sv_SE/forum/forums/model-x-size

Also remember that a bicycle adds 6 inches to your height. You can try it yourself.

Näky | 11 septembre 2014

Teo_, consept car has cameras in stead of mirrors, but that is not yet legaly possible. Most cars parked roadside have mirrors, that define cyclist distance from cars. Try search some front view images of F150. If most cars at curb are Model X, then every cyclist would be aware of falcon wing doors.

Can you also present us some front and side view images with measurements of cyclists and their height?

Red Sage ca us | 11 septembre 2014

As Näky has pointed out at least once, if not fifty times, the photos of both Franz and Elon show them standing much closer to the vehicle than a typical cyclist would be while riding by it when parked.

Nice try with the marked up graphics, but you mistakenly ignore perspective each time when measuring to the bottom edges of the door.

It has been my experience that the grand majority of human beings are shorter when sitting on a bike than they are while standing. Franz would have to be riding on a bike with a 45" frame to be taller than he is standing.

Also, on average, most people aren't really very tall at all:
AVERAGE HEIGHT
Nation Male Female
Australia 175.6 cm (5 ft 9 in) 161.8 cm (5 ft 3 1⁄2 in)
Canada 175.1 cm (5 ft 9 in) 162.3 cm (5 ft 4 in)
China (PROC) 174.7 cm (5 ft 9 in) 161.3 cm (5 ft 3 1⁄2 in)
Japan 170.7 cm (5 ft 7 in) 158.0 cm (5 ft 2 in)
Norway 182.4 cm (6 ft 0 in) 168.0 cm (5 ft 6 in)
Netherlands 183.8 cm (6 ft 1⁄2 in) 170.7 cm (5 ft 7 in)
U.S. 176.3 cm (5 ft 9 1⁄2 in) 162.2 cm (5 ft 4 in)
UK – England 175.3 cm (5 ft 9 in) 161.9 cm (5 ft 3 1⁄2 in)

TeoTeslaFan | 11 septembre 2014

Näky I know that the model X will have side mirrors instead cameras. But in the image 6 messages above you can clearly see that the mirrors will not stick out out from the red lines. The red lines show the side of the tires which is the widest point of the car.

The falcon wing doors stick out 14 inches after those red lines. The mirrors stick 1 or 2 inches after the red line. Therefore they will not push the cyclist away from the car.

Here this image explains it better:

The took that from this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWqGUoKvfJ4

Näky said: "Can you also present us some front and side view images with measurements of cyclists and their height?"

I don't have cyclist images. We can use images from the internet. Also you could add your own measurements like I did. I'm 5'11" tall and on my bicycle I'm 6'5" when I'm riding upright excluding a helmet. My saddle is high enough that my legs don't fully stretch but are close to that. I can reach the floor with my toes when I'm sitting. To measure my height I stood upright on my bike under a door frame with my hands on the handlebar.

Also I can hit objects with the side of my head that stick out 9 inches or more from the side of the door frame, without hitting the side of the door with my handlebar. I used a measuring tape.

Because the doors stick out 14 inches from the widest point of the car, it is obvious that I would hit them.

Also remember that if you have 14 year old kids at home they will be tall enough to hit doors. When something like that happens I don't think people will approach the issue like vperl did with his Darwin theory.

There are a lot of things that can be done to prevent this. In my previous message I suggested attaching something to the inside of the door so it would hang down and the movement would catch a cyclists eye. But the object I suggested (DreamCatcher with Feathers) isn't any good at dark. Here is a better alternative. It is a Halloween Reflective Necklaces. It costs only $6 and this will prevent a 2.4 million lawsuit.

www.amazon.com/dp/B00444ILFO/

NumberOne | 11 septembre 2014

@Teo_ While I do not want to get personal here, I am wondering about how big a head the average cyclist has. My helmet adds about an inch but not more than two to the circumference of my head.

I do not know about other heads, but mine does not extend all the way out to my shoulders, and my shoulders are not 7ft off the ground when I am on either a road or mountain bike. Thankfully, my head is also on top of my neck, lowering the point of decapitation by about a foot. If I do contact a door, my head will still be attached.

In order for your head to be in any real danger, you must actually be closer to the car than the furthest extremity of the car which, based on your picture will require near impossible acrobatics as well as a super high tech bike that can actually navigate through solid matter, such as the part of the car below the center of the doors.

If you ride (with your handle bar (as little as six inches from the mirror of a parked Model X, your head should not be in any danger of getting as much ass a bump. Six inches is, to my opinion is still reckless and perilously close. There are lots of cyclists on this forum, and if nothing else, all of your posts actually helped put their minds at ease, and they are probably all chuckling now. The only way to actually hit your head on a Model X is by making a very deliberate effort, which (a) will not stand in court and (b) either death or with no additional wealth.

TeoTeslaFan | 11 septembre 2014

LeonardD said "I do not know about other heads, but mine does not extend all the way out to my shoulders"

Thanks for letting me know that human heads are not as wide as shoulders. Later I will add a cyclists diagram explaining measurements. My head, shoulder and handlebar widths are 7, 18, 23 inches respectively.

TeoTeslaFan | 11 septembre 2014

This is a random cyclist image I picked on the internet. The measurements are mine. The distance we want to find out is shown in yellow.

There are two ways to do that. You can either sit on your bicycle and put it next to a door frame or wall and then use a measuring tape to find out the distance or you can calculate it with this formula:

distance = (handlebar width - head width)/2

This second method is explain in the following diagram. In A we have the same measurements as in the picture. In B, half of the handlebar is 11.5 inches wide. Half of the cyclists head is 3.5 inches wide. Therefore the distance we want to know is 11.5-3.5 = 8 inches.

This calculation doesn't include a helmet. A helmet makes things worse. In C the helmet adds 1 inch width. Now you would hit the doors if they stick out 7 inches from the car.

How much do the doors stick out? My early calculations estimate 14 inches. In the video I linked earlier Elon said about a foot. If we assume 14 inches to be correct then you will hit the doors without a helmet if you ride 14-8 = 6 inches away from the rear tires. Or with a helmet if you ride 14-7= 7 inches away from the rear tires.

The side mirror reduce these by 2 inches because it stick only 2 inches from the widest point of the car which is the side of the tires. So without helmet 4 inches and with helmet 5 inches away is required.

I'm starting to think that it would be be very rare that a cyclist would ride so close to parked cars. However still in those rare occasions it will be highly dangerous even if they overlook the open doors. Could you have 1 cycling accident during ownership of 8 years of the car. Possibly.

I think if the doors would clear a few inches more, which seems doable considering that there is still a little space between the open doors on top of the car, the falcon wing doors would be safer than regular car doors.

Could a cyclist ride into the open doors on purpose? I don't know. I never thought about it but now that LeonardD has mentioned that possibility, I think it could happen. I guess some homeless cyclists could try to do that if they know that the model X is a $100K car. With other car doors there is no such a risk since the doors are not left open longer than a few seconds. But if you park at the side of the road to pick up something from a shop you wouldn't close the falcon wing doors if there is somebody in the car. This seems to be a unique danger to model X. That's another reason why these doors should be redesigned to stick out less.

Red Sage ca us | 11 septembre 2014

Uhm, yeah... But you don't show how tall those people are -- while sitting on the bikes. You also don't show the distance between the bikes... Or the distance from the inboard bike to the curb.

Brian H | 11 septembre 2014

Any cyclist who doesn't routinely ride leaning over his/her handlebars is trying to have an accident.

TeoTeslaFan | 12 septembre 2014

Red Sage,

Is this another message you wrote without reading anything I said? The picture is some random cyclist image I found on the Internet. The measurements belong to me. My head is 7 inches wide, shoulders 18 inches wide and handlebar 23 inch wide. My bicycle is similar to that mans in the picture. That's all. There is nothing else in the picture.

Red Sage said: "you don't show how tall those people are"
I also don't show how wide their handlebar or head is. Those measurements are from my head and from my handlebar. Also I told you my standing height and on the bike height. If you don't believe me find a hybrid bike and measure yourself. It adds 6" to my height.

I have done measurements and I wrote my numbers. I don't see any of you doing the same.

Red Sage said: "You also don't show the distance between the bikes"
Do you mean the distance between the man and woman? What does this have to do with anything? It could have been a dog running next to the man's bicycle or a horse. It doesn't matter. It just happens to be another bicycle. The picture shows two people riding in an upright position on hybrid bikes.

Red Sage said: "Or the distance from the inboard bike to the curb."
What does that have to do with anything? Is this particular picture a representation of cycling habits worldwide? It is a random picture.

Brian H,

You seem to be surprised or upset that some cyclists ride huge bikes with high handlebars that don't require the rider to lean forward. Not everybody rides a road bike with drop bars of flat bar positioned as low as possible. Some people ride comfortable city bikes that don't require to lean forward. Some of those bikes don't even have gears because they don't need go fast and they have huge fat tires.

In Tesla Megafactories documentary (available on youtube) Gilbert Passin, head of manufacturing rides a bicycle (33m45s). He sits upright because the handlebar is very high. Obviously these bikes are common everywhere. Search google for city bikes.

Svenssons | 12 septembre 2014

@Teo_: If you use your own picture taken from Teslas page and measure the distance how far out the door goes, you will see that the door is less than 16 cm out from the cars side. Add rear mirrors and a cyclist will not be able to pass the car without hitting the rear mirrors according to your own measurements of the cyclist. Only option for a cyclist to hit the door is if he is cycling toward the car from the side.

Red Sage ca us | 12 septembre 2014

Teo_ inquired, "Is this another message you wrote without reading anything I said?"

Shole iz.

georgehawley.fl.us | 16 septembre 2014

Oh oh, watch out for the scissor doors...

pvetesla | 16 septembre 2014

Haha. But as you can see in the picture the door will protect the bike rider by encasing him in a rounded body shaped door. BMW even included an airbag that deploys if a biker or even a pedestrian walks into it by accident.

georgehawley.fl.us | 17 septembre 2014

Sorry, pvetesla, you just stepped over the line.
Pedestrian casualties are a different thread. :-))

pvetesla | 17 septembre 2014

Shoot. Sorry.

I'm glad I didn't mention that large pets are also in danger.

anders | 18 septembre 2014

@Teo_: Thank you very much for all the information about the potential risk for bicyclists. Though, I have to say that I believe that you have missed out on an even greater potential problem with the falcon wing doors: the risk for decapitation of horse riders.

When I have brought this theme up at important events, such as my wife’s Tupperware parties, I have met a lot of resistance. Therefore I, inspired by you, made a picture and took some measurements – and as you can see in the picture below I can without a doubt prove that the doors would immediately kill a horse rider that would pass by the car. If you don’t understand the importance of this discovery, I have made up some facts:
In Turkmenistan as many as five horse accidents occurs every day involving doors.
If a horse rider stretch his/hers neck, it will be very long which can be very dangerous.
Doors in traffic is very dangerous and over 1,2 million people dies in traffic accidents annually!

I really hope that you value the time and energy I spent providing these game changing facts about the falcon wing doors and horses, and I really hope that Tesla understand the importance of this and spray the cars in a smell that repels horses.

vperl | 18 septembre 2014

Anders, excellent report. We can close this very important thread. You are the best researcher on this site.

Golly on, chap.

Red Sage ca us | 18 septembre 2014

anders: See? You have proven by example that bicycles and horses are smarter than their riders. I bet not one horse has ever been decapitated by a gull wing door. Their riders? Almost certainly within 0.00000000000000000000001% of none of them have lost their heads to such dangers! PROOF POSITIVE! Horses are smarter than humans! w00+!

pvetesla | 19 septembre 2014

@anders

TOO FUNNY!!!!

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