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Supercharging ISSUES by ICE vehicles continue to worsen in some area

Supercharging ISSUES by ICE vehicles continue to worsen in some area

WHY SHOULD MODEL S OWNERS SUFFER!

After hearing these horror stories time and time again and in all parts of the country.
Tesla should act on this NOW!

Why Tesla owners should be unconvinced by ICE's drivers for even one minute is beyond me!

An easy fix for now and future stalls should have a gate that can be controled and lifted upon a Model S or X approach to a Super Charger Stall. The technology that Tesla processes, we could control the gate lift with our system in the vehicle (much like a garage opener) or even if we have to leave the vehicle to open the gate, with a Tesla card opener. After all we must be outside the vehicle to plug in the supercharge cord.

This would take a resign of the stalls but it seems this problem is only getting worst and worst and if traffic tickets are not accessibly then another deterrent should be put into place immediately.

mysimplename | 17 mars 2015

I have an idea...

A siren & flashing lights would go off within 90 seconds of pulling into a spot if someone doesn't plug in and/or if a Tesla key fob is not detected. Violators would be deterred, I would think.

The rude ICE driver will have parked, locked his car, and walked away within the 90 seconds you speak of.

It has to be immediate.

JGB | 17 mars 2015

I have never been iced, but, I did have to wait because all four slots were occupied by Tesla’s charging (Newark DE ). If the answer to the icing problem that is being discussed were to jump into the pockets of the youngsters at Tesla they wouldn’t know what to do with it. Lets try this one, move the charging stations away from the front doors of the service centers. I think we are all capable of walking a few steps to get to the rest rooms.

No matter how hard you try you can not legislate common sense.

Grinnin'.VA | 17 mars 2015

@ SamO | March 16, 2015

@Grinnin',

Tesla has show that they have a process to scale.

For dealing with ICEing, Tesla hasn't said diddly squat.
Therefore, I assume that they haven't yet figured out how to deal with it.

Or did I miss something on this? Please tell me how Tesla intends to deal with ICEing. PLEASE!

Red Sage ca us | 17 mars 2015

Grinnin' Ron, you are a smart guy. I am not entirely dumb. That said, each of us has come up with solutions to ICEing and otherwise waiting for Supercharger slots. I would guess that Tesla Motors has people working for them who are at least as smart as you are, and certainly smarter than I hope to be.

They may not have publicized their solution, but that's OK. Tesla has learned that telling people what they will do ahead of time just yields a $#!+ load of Nay saying. Thus, they may not tell us until after it is done. In the meantime, take note that the busiest Supercharger locations tend to be expanded, and supplemental locations are added nearby, once data warrants it is necessary to do so.

I believe that us a good sign.

SamO | 17 mars 2015

@Grinnin'

I showed you pictures of Culver City where Tesla painted the spots with a giant Tesla logo.

Here it is again.

NO ICEING.

5 gallons of paint and some stencils.

SamO | 17 mars 2015

Too subtle? How about this?

SamO | 17 mars 2015

How about here?

Grinnin'.VA | 17 mars 2015

@ Red Sage ca us | March 17, 2015

Grinnin' Ron, ... In the meantime, take note that the busiest Supercharger locations tend to be expanded, and supplemental locations are added nearby ...

I believe that us a good sign.

Agreed. However, this doesn't deal effectively with ICEing. If/when/where it is common, ICEing dilutes the capacity and forces Tesla to build proportionally more capacity that would otherwise be needed. I believe that dilution threatens the economic viability of unlimited SC charging for the life of the car given a $2000 up-front fee to pay for it.

SamO | March 17, 2015

@Grinnin'

I showed you pictures of Culver City where Tesla painted the spots with a giant Tesla logo.

Certainly, such painting of SC stalls is a step in the right direction. Time will tell whether such "please don't park in our charging stations" measures will suffice to substantially eliminate ICEing. I hope that will be the case, but then again I'm skeptical about that.

Larry@SoCal | 17 mars 2015

The above painted stalls are great, magnificent!
They give credibility and advertising to Tesla.
What a thrill it must be to pull into one of them.
Go, go Tesla!
~Larry

SamO | 17 mars 2015

@Grinnin' wrote:

"For dealing with ICEing, Tesla hasn't said diddly squat. Therefore, I assume that they haven't yet figured out how to deal with it. Or did I miss something on this? Please tell me how Tesla intends to deal with ICEing. PLEASE!"

Yes. You assumed wrong. Repeatedly. You missed it and then compounded your confusion when you wrote:

"Certainly, such painting of SC stalls is a step in the right direction. [So you admit TM has a plan and that I showed you the plan. twice, above.]

Time will tell whether such "please don't park in our charging stations" measures will suffice to substantially eliminate ICEing. [Since there is not ICEing problem now, then these actions by Tesla don't "eliminate" ICEing. They "prevent" ICEing. ]

I hope that will be the case, but then again I'm skeptical about that. [Again, why so negative? You offer not a scintilla of rationale. You didn't even know what actions Tesla is taking until five minutes ago and now you've considered them in light of this new information and can now be "skeptical"? Already?]

Color me amused.

Grinnin'.VA | 17 mars 2015

@ SamO | March 17, 2015

@Grinnin' wrote:

"... Therefore, I assume that they haven't yet figured out how to deal with it. Or did I miss something on this? Please tell me how Tesla intends to deal with ICEing. PLEASE!"

Yes. You assumed wrong. Repeatedly.

WELL, where's the beef? PLEASE point me to a coherent statement by Tesla on how they intend to deal with ICEing if/when it becomes a general problem! I challenge you: Put up or quit throwing verbal rocks at me for trying to help.

"Certainly, such painting of SC stalls is a step in the right direction. [So you admit TM has a plan and that I showed you the plan. twice, above.]

B.S. A few painted stalls isn't a "plan". As I said it's "a step in the right direction."

[Since there is not ICEing problem now, then these actions by Tesla don't "eliminate" ICEing. They "prevent" ICEing. ]

I'm not among the Tesla owners who claim that ICEing is currently a big problem. My claim is that if ICEing is accepted as normal behavior, the cost of the SCs will threaten the economic viability of the SC system financed by $2000 per car. Evidently, you don't like me saying that even though you haven't provided any credible reason why I'm wrong. BTW, I'd prefer to be wrong on this.

[... You didn't even know what actions Tesla is taking until five minutes ago and now you've considered them in light of this new information and can now be "skeptical"? Already?]

Don't you understand English? As in my "such painting of SC stalls is a step in the right direction".

Color me amused.

I don't care diddly squat what you think about me. I care about the viability of the SC system. IMO, a better color for you is "rose".

Why the hostility?

SamO | 17 mars 2015

@Grinnin',

Why the drumbeat of fear, uncertainty and doubt?

You admit ICEing isn't a problem. There's no need to add the "yet" since that assumes that ICEing will EVER be a problem.

I think that owners need to be ambassadors rather than combatants asserting our "rights".

I've seen OWNERS humbled by a Supercharger so imagine someone who has never seen an EV and has no idea what that red and white bollard is for.

So yes, I think a little red paint will go a long way to communicating a brand and a message. In fact, science agrees that the color red "warps the mind."

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20140827-how-the-colour-red-warps-the-mind

Rocky_H | 18 mars 2015

A red and white T logo doesn't have any connection to electric vehicle charging anyway to people who don't know what Tesla is, who would be the people most likely ICEing spots, so it's already not really a very effective method. The pictures of cars with electric cords coming out of the them is the proper type of notification.

DTsea | 18 mars 2015

My percption is that iceing subsides once superchargers get used more. This weekend i used ellensburg WA twice. 5 stalls. 4 model s the first time... 3 the second time. A year ago a couple stalls were iced. Now it is obvious what is going on.... no iceing... mpre people asking how i liked the car and taking pictures.

You dont hear about iceing at san juan capistrano or hawthorne.

SamO | 18 mars 2015

@Rocky_H,

The color red communicates by itself.

The signs posted that say "EV CHARGING" also communicate.

The bollards and lit signs (which used to be plain plastic sans lights, until they were replaced last February) communicate.

Each element doesn't need a press conference. TM just iterates.

Remember the rocket/dildo shaped Supercharging obelisk?

Replaced with

SamO | 18 mars 2015

@DTSea,

ICEing in San Juan Capistrano is impossible for two reasons:

1. The Supercharging spots are shared parking, so ICE cars are permitted to park in the spots.

2. The spots are full so often that there's just no room to ICE.

Also, ICEing was never an issue at Hawthorne. It in Tesla Motors reserved parking in a manufacturing park without much to entice the public.

DTsea | 18 mars 2015

Thats my point. When superchargers are in use they dont get iced.

Grinnin'.VA | 18 mars 2015

@ SamO | March 17, 2015

@Grinnin',
Why the drumbeat of fear, uncertainty and doubt?

For as long as I can remember, I've lived in a world with lots of misinformation and deception. So in my teenage years I adopted a critical attitude as an emotional survival approach. Over the years I've honed my analytical skills and applied them when and where they fit real-world problems. I've communicated directly with Tesla executives responsible for the SC system. Their responses to my emails tell me that they are flying by the seat of their pants, learning as they go. Nothing necessarily bad about that, but it doesn't inspire confidence when:

1. They are unwilling to express the functional goals of the SC system in quantitative terms like probability that an SC-authorized car will find no available stall when they arrive at an SC during peak usage periods or average waiting time for SC service during peak usage periods, or any similar thing.

2. Evidently, they don't even want to talk about what they think constitutes satisfactory SC system performance.

3. Tesla also avoids discussing the SC ICEing, which may become as serious problem if effective steps aren't taken to strongly discourage it.

When I see a problem headed our way, I sound the alarm. You call it FUD. I call it responsible criticism. If you struggle with my criticism, you can easily avoid it by simply skipping my posts.

BTW, many years ago I managed the capacity of dialup access to a national network with several hundreds of access points. My goals were:

1. At least 99% of the calls should go through on the first attempt.
2. No more than 1% of the calls should end in an abnormal termination.

We tracked the performance and adjusted our expansion plan on a monthly cycle. And BTW I reduced the budget for this system by about 15% the first year. While reducing the support staff from 3 to 1 person plus a couple of days of my time per month. And while improving the system performance. All with a rule that said I could only add capacity; surplus capacity could not be removed from the system. Tesla needs to do something similar for the SC system.

I have stated my ideas on a topic of interest to many Tesla owners.
YOU and others seem to object to me stating my ideas. Tough s#it. I'm working on behalf of all Tesla owners who use SCs during busy periods.

I suggest a live-and-let-live approach. You express your opinions, and I'll express mine. (It's OK if we disagree.)

If/when you disagree with me, it would be constructive for you to acknowledge the correct things that I say. And then explain why you disagree with other things I say.

BTW, I don't respond meekly to attempts to silence me. Others have tried; none has succeeded.

Brian H | 18 mars 2015

More's the pity.

SamO | 19 mars 2015

@grinnin'

Please show how anyone "tries to silence you"?

You made a handful of ill conceived comments about how Tesla was doing nothing to address the "problem" of ICEing. I calmly, rationally and logically pointed out all the things the Tesla motors is doing including signage, supercharger placement, painting of spots and changing the bollards from plain plastic to include lighting.

You were WRONG.

You then dismissed those actions by TM by saying that you didn't think it was going to work.

So not only have you missed the substance of most my posts, you then dismissed the substance of what Tesla Motors was doing. It makes it very hard to take what you're saying seriously.

To then compound your error by claiming that someone is trying to silence you?

hilarious.

Let me be clear: I disagree with your logic. I disagree with your conclusions. I think you have dismissed evidence of the steps TM was taking too easily. I have nothing against you personally.

Grinnin'.VA | 19 mars 2015

@ SamO | March 19, 2015

@grinnin' ... Please show how anyone "tries to silence you"?

Your rhetorical question: "Why the drumbeat of fear, uncertainty and doubt?" is a thinly veiled attempt to silence me.

You made a handful of ill conceived comments about how Tesla was doing nothing to address the "problem" of ICEing.

What did I say about Tesla's painting of SC stalls?
I said it was "a step in the right direction." And I followed that by saying I hoped that such measures would be sufficient in dealing with ICEing. And then you claim that I had said that "Tesla was doing nothing to address the "problem" of ICEing". You're misrepresenting what I actually said.

You then dismissed those actions by TM by saying that you didn't think it was going to work.

I did no such thing! I said I hoped Tesla's efforts to deal with the problem would be sufficient.

So not only have you missed the substance of most my posts,

What do you think I missed? (I read your posts carefully, and I'm not a dummy.)

It makes it very hard to take what you're saying seriously.
hilarious.

You are entitled to your opinions. And so am I.
Given that you're apparently upset by my postings, I find it hard to believe you think what I've written is "hilarious".

Please focus on the substance of what I say and skip the attempts to discredit me by distorting what I've written. You keep saying something like "ICEing isn't a problem"; I keep agreeing with that and add "but it will be unless effective measures are put in place to deal with ICEing". And then ignore the fact that I agreed with you about the current situation.

This is pointless because you're refusing to engage in a rational discussion of the ICEing concern.

the bonnie | 19 mars 2015

Coming in late to this conversation, but wow ... some posters may consider switching to decaf. :)

Have there been some reports of ICEing? Yes. But not at a significant level. On the other hand, when you need to charge and there is a non-charging vehicle in your spot (ICE, PEV, or BEV), it's a pretty big deal.

Will ICEing issues increase, without anything more being done? Arguments can probably be made either way, but (imo), probably not. As some have rightfully pointed out, a large segment of the population just doesn't realize that they're blocking a spot needed by an EV driver. People are becoming more educated and aware, as more EVs are on the road - so (again, imo), it's likely there will be less ICEing incidents.

When I bought my Roadster 4 years ago, people didn't know what an EV was ...now almost everyone does. Huge changes in a short time. I suspect ICEing will become more rare, not more frequent.

No doubt Tesla monitors the reports and is well aware if this is a growing or shrinking problem. They've got the actual data in hand and it's their brand to protect. I suspect they care very much. :)

Brian H | 19 mars 2015

bonnie;
+1

G. gets his excitement by terrorizing himself with his own edge case projections. Life would be too boring, otherwise, apparently. ;p

DTsea | 19 mars 2015

Grinnin' is quick to demand data when others disagree with him, which is fine... but no one on this thread has shown DATA that 'ICEing is getting worse' or trend data that it WILL get worse in the future.

Juggernaut | 19 mars 2015

I've only visited the supercharger in Greenville, AL. Adequate signage and off to the side of the Hampton Inn parking lot. 2 out of 6 chargers had a different sign saying something like, 30 minute parking only, the rest said Tesla parking only. Someone would have to feel guilty about leaving a car there even if they didn't know what a Tesla is. I appreciate the early adapters flushing all these problems out. Gates seem to be a bit too much. More Teslas and more people understanding that charging spots are like gas pumps is the ultimate solution. And more Teslas on the road is the best way to get there...

Larry@SoCal | 19 mars 2015

As the gate advocate here, I will restate that there was a fellow Tesla driver robbed of his possessions and car. Fenced and gated area would lessen this possibility. Also it would be nice, and nice only not essential, for our Supercharging area to have an air compressor, windshield cleaning supplies and a trash can. I think maybe someday we will see these conveniences.
~Larry

Juggernaut | 19 mars 2015

I like the windshield cleaning, air compressor idea. By the time there are a million Teslas out there, surely supercharging will look way different. One day, and we may live to see it, 10% of cars may be Teslas. By the time 2% of cars are long range electrics I'm sure charging stations will be viewed as more of a gas pump and folks will simply know better than to block one. May never get around criminal types taking whatever advantage they can, but that's a problem for any type of car and travel. Like I said before I've only visited one SC. You're probably right that in some areas a gate may be in order...

DTsea | 20 mars 2015

Larry, i dont know what the car jack rate is for expensive ICE cars is but going to Barstow late at night isnt maybe a great choice. 1 car out of 80000. I would ratber see the money go to more superchargers

Larry@SoCal | 20 mars 2015

DTsea, yes that's the only one I know of.
Painting the area is the best, first step. (Also implicit in the painted surface is the message that we do *not* leak fluids.)
There will be more sophisticated Superchargers off in the future but right now we need quantity and location.
~Larry

SamO | 20 mars 2015

@DTsea,

+1 re: posting facts. I'm going to let all of the personality and histrionics go.

Re: locked parking, It will happen in spots where parking is traditionally locked. Like in London Westfield shopping center.

Not at a Chili's in Barstow.

Captain_Zap | 20 mars 2015

@SamO

You are one of the most rational people I have come across.
You too, Bonnie!

When we got our early cars there were only 2 Superchargers in the world a very, very short time ago. OMG! There was 10,000 reservations! (Insert histrionics.) Tesla had better do something about it.

Two years later, how many Superchargers are there?

SamO | 20 mars 2015

@CZ,

Lol. Seriously.

I love that we are getting ~300 more superchargers this year and 2000 HPWCs throughout the world.

This just keeps getting better.

What are we going to say in 2016?

Well . . . you can't drive to the North Pole like you can in a gas car ;-)

And actually, Elon said all but Northern Alaska would be covered by the end of this year.

http://electrek.co/2015/03/20/audio-recording-of-the-tesla-6-2-range-anx...

Grinnin'.VA | 21 mars 2015

@ DTsea | March 19, 2015

Grinnin' is quick to demand data when others disagree with him, which is fine...

"Fine", you say. I "demanded" NOTHING! You're misstating my expressed ideas here. Yes, data is needed for a responsible analysis of the extent that ICEing is or will be a problem. Do you agree or disagree with this statement?

BTW, I explicitly stated that I had NOT done an analysis of the ICEing problem because I don't have enough data on it. What's wrong with this?

... no one on this thread has shown DATA that 'ICEing is getting worse' or trend data that it WILL get worse in the future.

True. However, I would think the following assumptions should be accepted by a large majority of sensible people:

1. Some of the reports of ICEing at SCs are true.

2. ICEing at any level increases the likelihood that an SC-authorized car arriving at an SC will need to wait to begin charging.

3. Larger numbers SC-equipped cars increase the usage level of the SC system.

4. Unless an SC's capacity is expanded, increasing its usage increases the likelihood that an SC-authorized car arriving at an SC will need to wait to begin charging.

5. Larger numbers of SC-authorized cars per SC increase the usage of the typical SC.

Please tell us which of these assumptions, if any, you disagree with.

If we try, I believe we can discover more relevant information about the ICEing problem. However, my impression is that you don't want to cooperate in such an effort. Indeed, it seems to me that you're trying to prevent others from such a cooperative effort. I hope I'm wrong about that. Please tell us what your intent is in this discussion.

milesbb | 21 mars 2015

@SamO

North Pole Alaska is in Central Alaska, just South of Fairbanks. You should be able to drive to the North Pole by the end of the year.

milesbb | 21 mars 2015

You will not be able to drive to Deadhorse AK, the oil Mecca of Alaska.

SamO | 21 mars 2015

@milebb,

See . . . Even my fake FUD doesn't hold water.

Thanks 8-)

SamO | 21 mars 2015

@Grinnin'

Here's where IMO there is a disconnect:

4. Unless an SC's capacity is expanded, increasing its usage increases the likelihood that an SC-authorized car arriving at an SC will need to wait to begin charging.

5. Larger numbers of SC-authorized cars per SC increase the usage of the typical SC

______________________

#4 should be written as "Elon Musk has stated unequivocally that SC capacity is expanding faster than sales of cars AND the Supercharger Network is being sized for peak usage of Friday and Sunday afternoons."

#5 Since there will be a greater number of Superchargers and HPWC "Destination Chargers" per car than currently exists, then the usage of a typical Supercharger will decrease."

*If you haven't already, the 6.2 Announcement audio recording is linked above and in other threads. It seems that Elon addressed many (most) charging concerns on that call.

milesbb | 21 mars 2015

Grinnin'.VA
I accept your 5 assumptions, they all seem reasonable.
Do you accept a 6th assumption that has been stated above? " iceing subsides once superchargers get used more"

EM just restated that supercharger capacity is being managed to handel peak load. Tesla has a all of the usage data and can easily keep up with usage for the near future. Just like you had all the data for the dial up call completion. It seems Tesla is achieving much better then 99% connection success. Additionally the 6.2 version gives each Tesla driver real time super charger information so they can make decisions when charger problems arise. I suspect Tesla software will soon be recommending which stall you should take so that you get the maximum charge rate during your stop. Pairing you with the car using the lowest charge rate.

Grinnin'.VA | 21 mars 2015

@ SamO | March 21, 2015

@Grinnin'

Here's where IMO there is a disconnect:

#4 should be written as "Elon Musk has stated unequivocally that SC capacity is expanding faster than sales of cars AND the Supercharger Network is being sized for peak usage of Friday and Sunday afternoons."

It's good to hear that Tesla understands the need to size SCs to meet the needs of SC users during peak periods. I don't know if Tesla is collecting data on ICEing. Do you know? If so, please share information on it with us. BTW, I think they should have sensors to detect and monitor SC stall occupancy by vehicles that are not in the process of charging as was suggested by someone else.

According to my calculations, expanding SC capacity faster than sales while provided unlimited SC charging without fees for the life of the cars is unsustainable unless it's subsidized. $2000 a car simply isn't enough money to do it. Even assuming absolutely no ICEing, ever, anywhere.

#5 Since there will be a greater number of Superchargers and HPWC "Destination Chargers" per car than currently exists, then the usage of a typical Supercharger will decrease."

I simply do not understand why this would be true when Tesla sells millions of cars in the next decade. Can you explain how destination chargers can effectively diminish the need for SC charging? They are much slower than SCs.

If you haven't already, the 6.2 Announcement audio recording is linked above and in other threads. It seems that Elon addressed many (most) charging concerns on that call.

I listened to the 6.2 Announcement audio. Not a word was said about ICEing.

Thanks for your comments.

Madatgascar | 21 mars 2015

Seems like the greatest value we can add through the forum is to report our collective experience on where ICEing is occurring, so Tesla can figure out why it is occurring, and get crowd source intel on what works and what doesn't.
To summarize what I have learned so far:
It does not seem to be much of a problem in CA (more awareness here?)
Bighorn says it's not a problem in all his travels (always trust him, but does he get to the big city much?)
My own 45,000 miles I have never been ICEd out, but have been forced to take a paired stall, which slows me down.
ICEing reports seem to come from busier wealthy metro areas like CT, WA
Photos of ICEd stalls show the chargers along the back, not between the stalls, with small signs
Personally I think the arrangement with the chargers alongside the stalls is best because it really mimics the feel of a gas station. People will not intentionally block a charger. Although you can't help the few morons who think it is a vacuum cleaner.

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