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Elon announced future battery replacement for M3, what about MS?

Elon announced future battery replacement for M3, what about MS?

Elon announced the M3 was built according to “commercial” specs, with the body designed to last #1 million miles, and batteries #3-#5 hundred k...and also announced a future battery pack replacement...I know the S was designed differently, but still hoping for a similar program for the S. Others have commented that they have had their S battery packed swapped out, so it would seem something similar for the S is very possible. For those that had the S battery pack replaced, wasn’t this done in a few hours?? Therefore, why not for the S???

Bighorn | 14 avril 2019

Probably more of a supply issue to date. They will be replacing modules on the 3.

reed_lewis | 14 avril 2019

The S and X were designed for battery swapping that was attempted at one location, so it is very easy to remove and install. So the physical act of charging is not the issue.

But the administrative job might be the issue here. The procedure at corporate need to be implemented,
Etc.

Bighorn | 14 avril 2019

It takes a few hours at a service center. Harris Ranch robots with human assistance could do it in several minutes. They’ve not allocated resources to building replacement batteries. Vast majority are under warranty and get replaced with refurbished faulty batteries.

TeslaTap.com | 14 avril 2019

You can buy a replacement battery for the S/X or 3 today if it's out of warranty (and very few are out of warranty yet). Don't like that after 200K miles the SOC dropped 6% - go ahead and buy a new battery. Tesla would be happy to take your cash. Seems a bit silly to me, but whatever floats your boat.

TeslaTap.com | 14 avril 2019

@Bighorn - "... replaced with refurbished faulty batteries"

I don't think that's what you meant? I hope not :)

PrescottRichard | 14 avril 2019

I believe he means- faulty batteries that have been refurbished. Happened to me with my 2013 P85.

Techs told me that they used to trouble shoot the battery pack and replace the offending section (module?) but now they send the whole battery pack out to the gigafactory once they have a refurbished pack to replace it. So the factory is doing the diagnosis and module swaps I guess.

Just for clarification - My understanding is the best way to refer to the car’s ‘battery’ is to call it a battery pack, which is comprised of modules of several actual batteries. If that’s wrong, well, now you know what I’m talking about!

My hope is that current batteries last long enough for higher density, safer, lighter replacement batteries to come into production. Kinda like solar, getting better every year in cost & efficiency. Just saw a headline where someone had figured out how to get another 19% out of the same surface area.

To quote Timbuk3- the future’s so bright, I gotta wear them shades.

Bighorn | 14 avril 2019

Meant to be read that they were faulty, but refurbished. I was down 11.5% at 197k miles which is on the curve. I’ve not heard that they’ve made replacement batteries available after the one or two very early in.

TeslaTap.com | 14 avril 2019

@Prescott - Agreed, I should be using "battery pack" instead of battery. Sort of a shorthand that can get confusing.

@Bighorn - Not sure of the replacement battery pack price, but I thought it was north of $20K.

Can't see any real demand for paid pack replacements for years. Lots of people seem to think they'd replace their pack, but I expect most will sell the car first and move onto a new car. Those that bought used, are unlikely to be in a position to drop another $20K+ into the purchase for 5-10% more range either.

PrescottRichard | 14 avril 2019

TT- do you know if putting a (just for illustration sake) 2x capacity battery will also require a lot of other components to be replaced or updated? I get the feeling it’s not like having a larger gas tank.

The IDEA of buying a replacement pack at some point is attractive, however in 5 years or so the tech will be so different that I suspect you are correct in thinking we would be more likely to buy new cars with the latest stuff. That might be too soo for most of us to buy a car with no steering wheel & full autonomous driving but who knows!

Bighorn | 14 avril 2019

Early packs were priced in the mid 40s and now about half that, but I don’t know if it’s an option to buy electively. Jason Hughes would be the one to ask.

I use traction battery or battery pack (to discriminate from the 12V), made up of bricks or modules, made up of cells.

tes-s | 14 avril 2019

Yes, replacement packs are available for the S and X. I have seen lots of people posting they got their pack replaced. Never seen someone post they could not not get a replacement pack.

Bighorn | 14 avril 2019

@tes
Electively? I had my S pack replaced, but it was a warranty issue as are all the other replacements I’m aware of.

tes-s | 14 avril 2019

We've already established they will replace packs. Warranty / non-warranty is just some haggling over price.

“Churchill: "Madam, would you sleep with me for five million pounds?"
Socialite: "My goodness, Mr. Churchill... Well, I suppose... we would have to discuss terms, of course... "
Churchill: "Would you sleep with me for five pounds?"
Socialite: "Mr. Churchill, what kind of woman do you think I am?!"
Churchill: "Madam, we've already established that. Now we are haggling about the price”

eggbert747 | 14 avril 2019

Next year 2012 cars will be out of the 8 year battery/drive train warranty. I'm very curious the % of owners that may need a battery pack replacement, not for normal degradation, but for a module failure like BH or complete catastrophic failure. I seems quite a few cars after 150 or 200K miles have needed a full pack replacement, under warranty for now of course. Not really worried myself, but it could mean negative publicity if owners have to cough up $20 -or 25K for a refurbished pack. It could be interesting... hopefully battery costs will continue to decline over time

MySin_AZ | 14 avril 2019

I am well aware of the current warranty for the battery packs...and I am not referring to that...but rather once out of warranty, why not offer the option to upgrade range. Ie. pre refresh 60 kw to a 100 kw (or even higher?)? This would also seem to support sustainability. Yes, I could always buy another S, but if my cars body is still in great shape, I am happy with my AP1, why potentially junk it? Perhaps I do want to keep my production year 2014 S60 for 20 years...but the only thing I want to change is to upgrade the battery? I would sure rather pay a premium to Tesla than an aftermarket supplier for that service.

Tesla-David | 14 avril 2019

I for one would love to be able to replace my 2015 MS85D battery pack with one using 2170s architecture utilized in the M3. We have averaged 108% in our RWD M3 over past 14 months, which blows me away with how much more efficient it is relative to our MS. I would expect a huge improvement in range/efficiency with the newer battery pack.

PrescottRichard | 14 avril 2019

MySin_AZ- I hear you! I think if there is a large enough jump in capacity you’ll need other components upgraded as well, but I’m not sure. Someone here should have a clue about that.

IF that is true, then a HV battery pack upgrade is more expensive than just the pack. Right?

TeslaTap.com | 14 avril 2019

@PrescottRichard - In the past (other than one known case) Tesla has not allowed upgrades (i.e. going from a 60 to an 85 for example). Also the pack connector changed a couple of years ago (around the introduction of the 100) such that new packs are not a direct retrofit into older cars. The connector may be able to be upgraded, but it does make the job quite a bit more complex (and adds labor and parts). Coolant distribution also changed internally with the 100, but I don't know if the actual coolant pack connections changed.

I'm not aware of any other issues, such as wiring or BMS changes since 2012 to today. I'm sure the software did change - something that may be fairly easy to handle - my guess is the pack tells the car which software component to use to match the pack.

Now if the batteries in the pack were switched to the 2170 style AND you wanted 250 kW Supercharging, then port cables would need to be replaced to handle the larger charging currents. The contactor switching AC/DC portion is also going to need an upgrade. The port might also need replacement. You could get the 2710 cell pack and limit Supercharging to 120-145 kW range without all the extra replacement parts and labor. Not sure there would be a lot of value with a 2170 retrofit pack by itself. It might not even have more range than a current 100 kW pack, as Tesla could make the 100 kW pack out of 2170 cells, but just make it with less cost.

tes-s | 14 avril 2019

Sort of like a laptop computer. Rarely is it worth getting a new battery - when the battery gives out, probably time for a new computer.

Replacing a failed battery module - sure. Putting a new battery in an 8+ year old car?? I don't see it.

Mathew98 | 14 avril 2019

Not true. A replacement laptop battery is less than $50 for most brand from Amazon, a new laptop would cost several times that amount.

New battery after 8+ years for an MS is pretty much the equivalent of a new motor in an ICE. It'll run for another 8+ years if the body is in good condition.

Mathew98 | 14 avril 2019

$20K MS battery is only a quarter of the cost of a new MS.

inconel | 14 avril 2019

Elon did mention the ability to upgrade the battery in the S/X in the future when the jump in battery capacity makes it worthwhile then.

DRFLGD | 14 avril 2019

I wonder if they will be able to retrofit solid state batteries in the future?

GHammer | 14 avril 2019

@Tesla-David The increase in efficiency is not due to the battery pack. Two factors come into play on the 3 RWD, the motor is a different more efficient design and Tesla underrated the range of the LR RWD.

TeslaTap.com | 14 avril 2019

And the Model 3 gets better range because it is a lighter and smaller car..

@Mathew98 "$20K MS battery is only a quarter of the cost of a new MS"

But $20K may be the total car's value in 8 years when you might consider replacing it. Really can't see it making much sense. Like replacing an ICE engine for $4K in a car worth $4K. Value will go up slightly, but not much.

barrykmd | 14 avril 2019

I don't think so.

Seems to me Musk is trying to discourage people from buying a Model S (eliminating choices/options/colors, changing the UI so it's optimized for the M3 layout and is worse for the MS, not doing a refresh after 7 years, etc.) to the point where he can justify discontinuing it.

Mathew98 | 14 avril 2019

@TT - If everything in your MS still drive and feel new at year 8, would it be worth $20K to you or $80K to replace it with a brand new one, where the only difference was the battery pack?

What your car is worth to other people is irrelevant. What is it worth to you and your wallet?

TeslaTap.com | 14 avril 2019

@Mathew98 - Excellent point. Not everyone can afford a new car, although I suspect many Tesla owners can afford a new one well before 8 years. Then there are those that are frugal and want to get the most out of their car, which is fine too - although I suspect these are the ones that would not spend another $20K to get 5-10% more range. Hard to see the value for any owner. I will say an 8 year old Tesla seems a lot better than most other non-Tesla EVs on the market.

tes-s | 14 avril 2019

"A replacement laptop battery is less than $50 for most brand from Amazon"
Have you bought one of those and recommend it?

"$20K MS battery"
Where did you get that price from?

Would you put a replacement pack in your MS made up of rejected 18650 cells?

My car is worth $19,080 private sale according to kbb. No way I'm putting a $20k battery in a $19k car with no AP, no parking sensors, no folding mirrors.

Mathew98 | 14 avril 2019

@tes-s - If it is only worth $20K to you and you can dish out another $80K for an upgrade, then the more power to you. Some battery packs last longer than other.

If a battery pack were to deplete 39% in 8 years (acceptable range according to some tech), would you pay $20K to replace it and restore it to the original range? It's all relative to the degradation and/or % gain from the replacement pack. 10% gain for $20K may not seem logical. But a 39% gain for $20K may not seem like a bad deal at all.

BTW -The $20K figure was hijacked form @BH, and he's always right.

Silver2K | 14 avril 2019

I would pay 20k for a new pack for my p90d in 5 years without question. The car will go 500k easily.

I don't care what kbb says about the value of my car. It's worth that amount untill i sell it for that amount.

barrykmd | 14 avril 2019

Or until it's in a crash, totaled, and you get less than you paid for the battery.

tes-s | 14 avril 2019

"If a battery pack were to deplete 39% in 8 years (acceptable range according to some tech), would you pay $20K to replace it and restore it to the original range?"

No.

Mathew98 | 14 avril 2019

@tes-s - Of course you won't, you already had 3 accidents with your MS. You'd have to pay someone to get rid of your junker.
;(

Th question for battery replacement is for all the owners with no accidents with their rides but with significant battery degradation, theoretically speaking.

tes-s | 14 avril 2019

Getting a few panels replaced is not the issue. I'll just drive the car until I'm ready for a new one. 40% battery degradation is no big deal - that is why I got the 85. 190 miles of range is plenty - people with 60s did that 5 years ago when there were few superchargers. After almost 6 years, I figure I have at least another 6 years to go - probably more.

Rather than a new battery in an old car, simply spend the additional $50k and get new MCU, suspension, AWD, autopilot, more range, faster supercharging, dash cam, sentry mode, parking sensors, folding mirrors, and all the other improvements made in 8 years. And of course, cup holders, coat hooks, and new car smell.

Maybe someone else will buy the car and put a new battery in it.

NKYTA | 14 avril 2019

@barr.y “Or until it's in a crash, totaled, and you get less than you paid for the battery.” you need some happy slope time soon. A Basin dude! ;-)

Mathew98 | 14 avril 2019

@tes-s - 40% loss for S85 = 0.6 x 265 miles = 159 miles, not 190 miles.

You're only off by another 40%, but that's not the point...

Mathew98 | 14 avril 2019

@barry was referring to @tes-s...

MySin_AZ | 14 avril 2019

I don’t think of a car as an investment, and am not concerned with residual value...but rather ROI on an $20k battery replacement...if it were to extend the life of the car 8 years, then in my mind that’s a great return...of course there could be other wear and tear, but from what I have read, the motors are showing no sign of even light wear...so, it may make good financial sense...and adds to the sustainability vision of Tesla...

larry | 15 avril 2019

The main reason it is being proposed as a viable way to keep the Model 3 on the road for extremely high mileage duration is due to it's style of construction. The battery pack in the Model 3 is a completely different design than the S or X; instead of many thousands of 18650 cells in one main housing, the Model 3 battery 2170 cells have been divided into 4 separate modules that can be individually replaced as needed, so it is a more cost-effective way to keep the battery at maximum efficiency at reduced cost over time. If the S or X battery has an issue, the entire pack has to be replaced at significantly higher expense relative to 1/4 of the 3 battery pack.

tes-s | 15 avril 2019

My expectation is about 190 miles due to degradation over 15 years/400k miles, about 25-30%. That is based on 6 years/160k miles and 10% loss, with most of that coming in the first 2 years.

40% and 160 miles is no problem. Easier to get places now with 160 miles than when I bought the car and it had 265 miles.

As far as sustainability, I think driving the car with the original battery is the most sustainable solution, whether it is the original owner or another owner.

barrykmd | 15 avril 2019

Matthew - Mine was in response to Silver's, "I don't care what kbb says about the value of my car. It's worth that amount untill i sell it for that amount."

Guess I forgot to use the forum's Quote button...

NKYTA - Again? FYI, About 10 days ago, I hit 3M vertical feet at Keystone since 2011 (the pass has an RFID chip in it.) Was considering A Basin today, but my back is bothering me a bit. The problem of getting old...

Jesse K | 15 avril 2019

Okay not sure where this thread is at the moment or the direction its taking but at one point my intended post seemed germane, so here we go: Early 2013 85 with 84,659 miles on it. This past week was alerted that systems were shutting down. Called Tesla and needs a battery pack. They are unclear on the turn around time. I too was curious how many have been replaced or what percentage. I am a little bummed 'cause I keep my battery in good condition and employ all the best practices. Now afraid I am going to be stuck with someone else's abused and often super charged to capacity pack...

Bighorn | 15 avril 2019

@larry
The Models S and X both have modular batteries as well, the number depending on capacity—closer to ten than four, so lighter. Modules can be replaced there as well. Based on tear downs of the 3, it does seem that they’re designed for plug and play. The car’s structural rigidity is derived from the battery and the chassis cannot be moved easily with the battery out. Plus the battery is very tightly sealed with adhesive and removing the plate seems to damage it. It’s not designed to be swapped out either.

@Jesse
I was hoping to get a freshly refurbished battery pack to regain range and reliability. I was originally told 3 weeks to get a pack, but we got it down to a couple days since I was on a cross country trip two thousand miles from home.

Bighorn | 15 avril 2019

Does NOT seem that they are designed for plug and play

tes-s | 15 avril 2019

A few have been replaced. Small percentage. Sometimes you get yours back; sometimes not - but if the replacement chargers to less than your original (before the failure), I would convey your concern to Tesla and see what they say.

Let us know how it goes.

NKYTA | 15 avril 2019

@barrykmd, 3M?!? Yikes. That's a thousand times the from top to bottom at the Beav!

TeslaTap.com | 15 avril 2019

As for modules in the S/X pack - 16 modules for 85 kW and larger, and 14 modules for the 75 and smaller. The way the S/X and 3 packs are sealed make module replacement more of a factory type operation, or perhaps handled in a regional center. I doubt Europe/Asia packs are sent back to Fremont or Nevada for repair.

@Jesse - Doubtful Tesla will release battery replacement numbers, but from those on the forums it seems quite rare, but not unheard of. My guess is well under 0.1%. As for Supercharging, it appears it has little affect to life. One company has been Supercharging multiple times daily, while running a LA to Las Vegas taxi type service and is getting great life. Still you want to get a pack with equal to or better range than your car when it failed. I do think Tesla does match this up with a retrofit pack that should be better than what you had.

PrescottRichard | 15 avril 2019

Maybe this article will put help with this thread-

https://interestingengineering.com/tesla-puts-price-on-model-3-battery-m...

TeslaTap.com | 15 avril 2019

@PrescottRichard - Interesting. Note that there are two different sized modules in the Model 3 LR. Don't know yet on the SR. So $3000-$7000 per module, could mean the pack is $12K to $28K if modules were the same. A guess is the smaller modules are $3K, and larger ones $7K, so perhaps $20K. Yikes, my early WAG seems to be on target :)

Ok, I doubt I got it right. More likely the SR small module is $3K, and the LR large module is $7K. Also the price includes labor for one module replacement, but once the pack is open and removed, replacing other modules might not be that much labor.

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