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pay no attention to the SR M3 behind the curtain

pay no attention to the SR M3 behind the curtain

Man.....I'm annoyed for all the reasons everyone else has said on this forum, how everything went down and all. I think the main issue is getting the free $ from the feds, when it's all said and done we want our darn $7500 coupon, right? I heard even upper class folks use coupons.

What's bothering me is Tesla upsold me, but there expensive product has a decent chance of hardware issues as others have posted on this forum. Do you think I'm looking at this wrong?

Also, on a unrelated note, why does the Bolt look like Homer Simpson designed it (youtube, The Homer - The Car Built for Homer)

If you had to choose would you go with a 150 mile Leaf or Bolt?

first world problems ;)

hoffmannjames | 13 février 2018

No, I would never go with a Leaf or Bolt. I am sure they are fine cars for some people but they are not for me. I don't like the exterior style of the Leaf or Bolt. They both look ugly to me. The Leaf does not have enough range. They don't have a good EAP system. Will never have FSD. Can't get OTA updates and don't have a supercharger network to support long trips. Not for me.

patswin | 13 février 2018

I know I thought the same thing. If I bought the base version and got the $7500 credit, wow that’s not just a good deal it’s a steal! Bottom line is it’s just to difficult to get things up and running quick enough to take advantage of these opportunities. Tesla also needs to show some positive income growth so I don’t blame them one bit for coming out with the higher profit versions first. I don’t think they even have a choice in the matter.
Another way to look at is more expensive version gets you bigger rebate. The less expensive version gets you a smaller rebate. That’s the way it typically works out in real life.

billy. | 13 février 2018

Ya got all that, but what if you had to choose? Think of it as when your voted for president last, lesser of two evils.

AJPHL | 13 février 2018

I’d go for something like an Ioniq hybrid over a bolt/leaf if I wasn’t going to get model 3. The supercharger network is what makes a Tesla viable for me.

mos6507 | 13 février 2018

Supercharger network is an asset now but not that long ago Tesla started talking with other automakers about opening up the chargers to other brands and then you have the CCS fast-charge network VW and others will be building across the US. Long-term I just don't think it's going to matter as we'll see more choice and inter-operability.

patswin | 13 février 2018

Assuming this is for a second car as neither of those are practical for road trips. I would go with a cheap used leaf to hold me over for 2 years or so. Then I would get a model 3 when all options are available or by a used model 3.

bill | 13 février 2018

Purchased a VW eGolf in December to drive while I wait for a M3. I reserved very late, so I'm thinking mid 2019 before my number comes up.

jordanrichard | 13 février 2018

"Supercharger network is an asset now but not that long ago Tesla started talking with other automakers about opening up the chargers to other brands and then you have the CCS fast-charge network VW and others will be building across the US. Long-term"

I don't know that they were actually in talks with other companies. They just put it out there that they are willing to let other companies use the network. No one has taken them up on that.

VW is supposed to create a separate company which will then build out a charging network. Ever since that made the news, nothing has been said since. They couldn't provide any details even as vague as a general plan on where these chargers would be and how convenient is it for road trips.

cornellio | 13 février 2018

Ya, stop harping on the Leaf. One thing's for sure, Nissan beat everyone to the game of making an affordable mass market EV. Been out for many years. Let's respect that. I have one and it's just fine for daily use. How often do we go go on road trips anyway?

Sure, I want the Model 3 instead, but the wait for the affordable version is a long one.

jordanrichard | 13 février 2018

Personally I would take the Leaf over the Bolt any day.

TeslaTap.com | 13 février 2018

There are alternatives to Tesla's Superchargers. Let's look at a 400 mile trip from San Francisco to LA. In an ICE car, it takes about 6 hours without a stop. In a Tesla LR, add 45 minutes for one Supercharger stop (which if timed with a meal, adds zero time to the trip).

You can go with L2 charging in a Bolt. A San Francisco to LA trip will take about 20 hours with at least two 8 hour stops, hopefully the one stall is not in use when your arrive at the station or it may take an additional 8 hours.

CHAdeMO via a Leaf might work for some, although most are still at lower power levels (30-50 kW), so you may get 100 miles of charge per hour. That LA trip will take at least 3 stops, at 1+ hours each, so figure about 10 hours. Many CHAdeMOs are inside dealerships, and you may not be allowed to use it if you're not aligned with that dealer. Hopefully the gates are unlocked when you arrive and the one stall is not ICEed by a dealer car.

Then you can go with the new 350 kW fast charging CSS system. Currently there is one charger in Germany. As long as that is on your route, and you buy a car that supports it (none available today) you're good to go! Plans are in place to expand this network in Europe, but zero plans yet for North America or Asia.

Other than Tesla, no auto manufacturer has any interest in paying for charging infrastructure. VW is forced to pay for some charging due to Dieselgate, although it's still unclear when any of this charging is expected. They appear to be dragging it out as long as possible.

ReD eXiLe ms us | 13 février 2018

About Volkswagen's penance, by way of Electrify America, there is a plan...:

https://www.electrifyamerica.com/our-plan

Our Plan

Over a ten year period ending in 2027, Electrify America will invest $2 billion in Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV) infrastructure and education programs in the United States. Of this $2 billion, $1.2 billion will be invested nationwide (in states other than California), while $800 million will be invested in California, the largest single ZEV market in the world. This investment represents the largest of its kind ever made, and it will provide long-overdue solutions to ZEV stakeholders

Electrify America, based in Reston, Virginia, is currently implementing the Cycle 1 National ZEV Investment plan, the Cycle 1 California ZEV Investment Plan, and the Supplement to the California ZEV Investment Plan. Over the first investment cycle, Electrify America will invest in ZEV infrastructure and awareness to support increased adoption and use of ZEV technology and to show more Americans that going electric is not only possible but beneficial today.

Charging Infrastructure

Electrify America will establish a comprehensive, technologically advanced, and customer-friendly charging network -- to drive EV adoption by reducing charging anxiety.

In its first ZEV investment cycle, Electrify America will establish a network that includes non-proprietary electric vehicle chargers (CCS, CHAdeMO and J1772 standards) at over 650 community-based sites and nearly 300 highway sites across the country.

· After a methodical and data driven analysis taking nearly six months, Electrify America selected seventeen metro areas including Boston, Chicago, Denver, Fresno, Houston, Los Angeles, Miami, New York City, Philadelphia, Portland, Raleigh, Sacramento, San Diego, San Francisco, San Jose, Seattle, and Washington, D.C.
· Community-based charging station sites will be built in workplaces, retail (shopping centers, restaurants, etc.), multifamily residential locations and municipal lots and garages, as well as high-speed community depots that will feature fast EV charging at speeds of up 150kW compared with today’s peak of 50kW.
· Highway sites will be located along high-traffic corridors between metropolitan areas, including two cross-country routes, and will include between four and ten 150kW and 350kW individual DC fast chargers at each location before June 2019.
· These sites will be located no more than ~120 miles apart and on average just 70 miles apart. Many shorter range EVs will benefit from 50kW DC fast charging on the Electrify America highway network, including any CHAdeMO equipped vehicles.

https://www.electrifyamerica.com/our-plan

cornellio | 13 février 2018

I get 155 miles charge per hour on CHAdeMO in my 2016 Leaf, when starting with a low SOC.
In the Bay Area Nissan has done a good job on CHAdeMO charging stations, where they outnumber Tesla chargers by a lot.

phil | 13 février 2018

If you like driving, the Bolt is a lot peppier and has enough range for anything but a long road trip.

If you like comfort, the Leaf has autopilot features and a nicer interior.

The Model 3 has everything, except it's not available.

Shock | 13 février 2018

It never even occurred to me not to keep an ICE for long trips. Hundreds of miles to a tank, a few minutes fill up, I can fill up anywhere, there is zero chance of me having to wait in lineup because super chargers are full (I spend approx 4-5 minutes/year [yeah really]) waiting behind people at gas stations for a spot.

If you abandon the forced use case of taking an EV on a long trip you realize you have freedom for more options.

Carl Thompson | 13 février 2018

@jordanrichard:
"VW is supposed to create a separate company which will then build out a charging network."

This is true (except for the future tense because they are already building it and some stations have been open for months).

"Ever since that made the news, nothing has been said since. They couldn't provide any details even as vague as a general plan on where these chargers would be and how convenient is it for road trips."

None of this is true.

Carl Thompson | 13 février 2018

@TeslaTap.com:
"Then you can go with the new 350 kW fast charging CSS system. Currently there is one charger in Germany. As long as that is on your route, and you buy a car that supports it (none available today) you're good to go!"

This is completely misleading. There are a (growing) number of fast CCS charging stations in the US. No, you don't need to wait for 350kW.

Tesla has the best cars and a great charging network. There is no need for Tesla fans to spread misleading FUD about the competition.

phil | 13 février 2018

Shock | February 13, 2018 "It never even occurred to me not to keep an ICE for long trips."

Of course, it's far better to either keep an ICE in the family, or just rent an ICE if you need to drive long distance.

EV's make great city cars but they simply are not ready for prime time when it comes to long distance. Not even Teslas, though they are certainly the best among EVs - life is simply too short to waste it at a Supercharger. I find it amusing to read on forums like this one (Bolt forums are no different) how EVs make great road trips, you just have to enjoy the charging detours, the long waits, the battles with range anxiety, the extra trip planning, etc. No skin off my nose, but these folks have to be either masochists or religious zealots.

So, the short range Model 3 is plenty for me. I just wish Tesla would make one.

patswin | 13 février 2018

@phil Don’t knock until you try it. I have done many trips in a gas car and now many in a Tesla. I don’t don’t have to imagine one way is better than the other. I know first hand. That’s said I am sure it’s not for everybody but as you said life is to short and that’s why I will never drive an ice on a long trip unless trip starts with an airplane ride and I have no choice.

bayareakid2008 | 13 février 2018

Hawkeyecustom, what is better about stopping for ~45 minutes for fuel as opposed to 5 minutes? Objectively, a road trip in a Tesla would take longer than a gas car.

madkim23 | 13 février 2018

@phil - I have a perfectly good 2015 Highlander with 37,000 miles on it. I’m loaning it to my Dad to replace his much older car until my daughter learns to drive in a couple of years. We have an S and just got a 3. If road trips weren’t outstanding in a Tesla, I would never part with an SUV that can get me anywhere I need to go without a stop. The only thing painful about giving him the car is having to drive it 6 hours instead of one of my EVs. A Tesla is an everywhere car.

madkim23 | 13 février 2018

@bayareakid2008 - everything that comes before the stop and after the stop. Incidentally, I’ve only road tripped in a 75D and have never stopped anywhere for 45 minutes. I think 30-35 is my max. Typically 15-20 minute splashes. Yes, it does take longer and yet it is much better.

phil | 13 février 2018

Madkim - Well, more power to you. But I'll be driving my Model 3 locally, and taking the gas SUV on the road. ;)

madkim23 | 13 février 2018

That is just fine. I planned to do the same before I got mine, even with free Supercharging. You just may change your mind.

Carl Thompson | 13 février 2018

@phil:
"I find it amusing to read on forums like this one (Bolt forums are no different) how EVs make great road trips, you just have to enjoy the charging detours, the long waits, the battles with range anxiety, the extra trip planning,"

I was skeptical too. But I took a reasonably long day trip (390 miles) in a rental and and it really was a very good experience. The wait to charge really was just the perfect length to get out, stretch your legs and maybe grab a snack after you've been sitting in a car for hours. If I were driving an ICE car the stops would be no shorter.

The only caveat in the future may be whether can keep up building out superchargers with sales of the Model 3 so you don't need to wait to actually use the supercharger. So far no problem with the current rate of production! ;-)

madkim23 | 13 février 2018

@CT - That is my only apprehension in the next year or two. The highways will be flooded with Model 3s and some spots need a significant boost in number of chargers or more Supercharger locations surrounding already established locations to provide more stop options. This will be resolved in time, but current S/X owners may notice a difference this Thanksgiving, for example, if they hit the road to visit family.

billy. | 13 février 2018

Looks like we have a healthy discussion on merits of sort/long range, ice/ev, and 3rd party charging network. I think this helps people make sure they make an okay decision for there family.

so far the winning statement is,
"phil | February 13, 2018
If you like driving, the Bolt is a lot peppier and has enough range for anything but a long road trip.

If you like comfort, the Leaf has autopilot features and a nicer interior.

The Model 3 has everything, except it's not available."

And trending statement that I also head from people offline,
" jordanrichard | February 13, 2018
Personally I would take the Leaf over the Bolt any day."
But man I keep thinking range is king, the Leaf does not have thermal battery management which I believe is really really important, and the Leaf range is currently* shorter.

Do note, my original post talked about Tesla manufacture hardware defects on a really expensive car and my concern with that.

burdogg | 13 février 2018

As far as long trips in an EV - I agree it takes longer - but after having one - I had to replace our Ford Expedition because I couldn't stand taking it on the family trips.

After you drive a Tesla, you may find that that is the car you want to drive on the long distance trip. To each their own, but I have done long distance trips and the extra time did not bother me or my family (6 of us total) - 1400 mile round trip over Thanksgiving. Loved every second of the drive in the X, as opposed to hating every second of it in the Ford Expedition.

To each their own, but you really can't make statements until you have driven a Tesla for a little while. Then if you still say you would rent an ICE car, then great. :)