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60kW battery range with superchargng... and more!

60kW battery range with superchargng... and more!

I have been thinking about the SC for the 60kW battery. In reality isn't the 85kw battery just getting 42.5Kw of juice added in 30 minutes. Do you think the 60kW will only get 30kW?

I ask because realistically the 42.5kW charge is not going to be 150 miles. We all know that depends on the driver. It will probably be more like 110 miles with the A/C on at 70MPH on level ground. I come up with this from a post I read somewhere from R&B about that speed and A/C giving the 85kW battery a range of 220 miles. Naturally I just cut it in half.

Hopefully the 85kW battery is getting more like 50kW for an added distance of 130 miles at that speed. Then the 60Kw would possibly get 35kW for an added distance of 90 miles. Just using proportions to come up with those numbers and rounding.

Either way I don't see the 60kW battery getting to another supercharger. They will be spaced too far apart. I am calculating the distances (based of R&B's numbers) for the 60kW battery at 70mph with the A/C on is around 160 miles at best and a supercharge will add 90 more miles for a total distance of 250 miles..... at best.

This is actually very important to me. I might call and see if I can get my battery upgraded now that we have actual numbers for the 85kW battery. This is why I was hoping for this announcement before I had to lock in. The production ramp delay might have been a good thing.

Do my number seems realistic for the 60kW battery?
Too low?
Too high?
Thoughts in general?

Brian H | 26 septembre 2012

The 50% is not the ceiling. It is possible to do more, but it slows down depending how far you go. And getting too full is a problem/damaging.

mrspaghetti | 27 septembre 2012

It's really hard to say anything about the 60kwh and superchargers at this point because no one has actually had one to try it with. Your best bet would be to write to Tesla and see if one of their engineers can give you some information.

Personally, I'd say if you can afford the 85kwh battery, get it and relieve yourself of all the wondering.

mrspaghetti | 27 septembre 2012

It's really hard to say anything about the 60kwh and superchargers at this point because no one has actually had one to try it with. Your best bet would be to write to Tesla and see if one of their engineers can give you some information.

Personally, I'd say if you can afford the 85kwh battery, get it and relieve yourself of all the wondering.

Sudre_ | 27 septembre 2012

Throwing away $10,000 on a larger battery at a whim is not something I would do even though I could afford it. I am not at that rich level yet :-) I hope to get there by not throwing away money that could be making me money, hence all the wondering.

There is a difference between if you can afford it and if you need it. I could get a pilots license and a small plane to make a once a year flight across the country. I think that would be a little extreme.

Volker.Berlin | 27 septembre 2012

I could get a pilots license and a small plane to make a once a year flight across the country.

No you couldn't. Your pilot's license would be invalidated by not flying for almost a year. ;-)

dahtye | 27 septembre 2012

I think there are assumptions made about the 50% level for the 60KW battery. That needs to be validated since it's the limiting factor in the original post. If this is invalid and the charger can actually charge at a rate of 42.5KW every 30 minute, then that's 71% of a 60KW battery and still the same range on this 30 minute fill up as the 85KW battery.

Also, as Brian H says, you can just stay plugged in longer to get to your 80% charge and have 124 miles of range (based on 80% of 220 range of an 85kW, and the percentage difference between 60KW and 85KW battery).

But this is still speculation and you really should talk to a TM engineer to get the facts. Maybe one of the sales reps can help you get in contact with a techincal professional at TM.

Mark K | 27 septembre 2012

Sudre - in direct discussion with chief engineer for SC at the event, his charge protocol is max rate to 50%, then taper charge rate until 80%, then trickle.

This implies about a 1C rate (that means 60KW being pumped into the 60KWH battery while it's charging), less about 10% lost in heat (so actual rate is around 1.1 to 1.2C) As confirmed by Elon, the SC can deliver about 90 to 100 KW, which is 100/85 = 1.2C.

It is possible to charge at higher rates like 2C or more (model airplane guys do 10C), but life is compromised.

After some real world testing, TM might be able to tweak up the SC rate for 60KWH packs to 1.5C (SC hardware is capable of this). That would be a software change to the SC. Don't depend on this though, since TM would only do it if the life hit proved to be immaterial.

The good news for you is that with a 60KWH pack, you can get more charge by just staying longer at the SC.

So the 60KWH may work fine for you if you stay 45 min to an hour.

Sudre_ | 27 septembre 2012

Mark, that's the kind of info I was curious about. There is a good chance I can drive 500 miles in a 10 hour day with 45 minute stops included in that time (assuming a constant 70mph with A/C) That range and time is my wife's daily riding limit which translates to my daily driving limit :-)

Brian H | 28 septembre 2012

Speaking of battery life and stuff, here's an interesting post (complete with imported Albanian spelling!) about a 4-yr old Roadster in Alaska, driven in cold down to -45° (C or F, take yer pick!) -- with barely detectable 2 mi. loss of range!
http://www.saxton.org/tom_saxton/2011/12/tesla-battery-capacity-aging.ht...

Brian H | 28 septembre 2012

Note the rest of Tom Saxton's blog above. Differences between Roadsters are about twice the trend line change over ~30K mi. or ~3 yrs.

jbunn | 28 septembre 2012

OK, I'm rather pissed off right now. Origionaly the site said 60 kWh pack, supercharger price to be determined. When I purchased, it then said, Supercharging included. I just got a letter from the config team saying it was now a $2,000 option but since I signed my purchase agreement "before all the details were included", I can get it for only $1,000 if I click now. And I had 10 days to decide, and it could not be added later. Additionaly, it states that the hardware is already there, and the 1,000 is for software and testing the config.

When I ordered the car, I thought "Included" was the detail I needed. Now, it's included, but you have to pay to have it included at the factory. It's attorney time over this, i suspect. Other than that, I'm pleased as plums over the car, company, supercharging, network, ect. But this option change a month after I signed my agreement, ruffles my fur.

Thoughts?

archibaldcrane | 28 septembre 2012

Yeah, it definitely sucks. 60kwh + air suspension were the only options I was considering, but if the 10k bump fro the 60kwh battery doesn't even include SC access, it's just like...ugh. Between this and the mandatory maintenance to upkeep the warranty, this car keeps getting more expensive.

CraigL | 28 septembre 2012

Dear Tesla,

First you screw everyone with $600 windsheild wipers, now $1000 for an included option.

Nick and dime = bye bye

While I would love to see you succeed, you have already crahsed and burned in my eyes.

giants2001 | 28 septembre 2012

@jbunn - You said exactly what I was thinking. I am rather pissed off at Tesla right now. Their only form of communication seems to come when they want money from me.

CraigL | 28 septembre 2012

I just wrote this to my ownership experieice advocate.

Dear Tesla,

First you screw everyone with $600 windsheild wipers, now $1000 for an included option.

Nick and dime = bye bye

While I would love to see you succeed, you have already crahsed and burned in my eyes.

jaycweber | 28 septembre 2012

Yeah I am definitely not impressed by the "$2000 but you get it for half-off!" line, and the explanation of "hardware included but testing it will cost ya" is ludicrous. "Unprofessional" is the kindest term I can come up with.

mbcaffe | 28 septembre 2012

I agree with everyone on this. it is very deceptive to go from "tbd" to "included" to this(half ass) About, the only positive to opt for $1000 is resale value. Tesla is surely not behaving like a car company. Just take a look at the punch list and I feel that the early adopters are really guinea pigs.

lajollan | 28 septembre 2012

Sad to say, I am having second thoughts also. The Model S already had some shortcomings, regarding leaving out options or even base features included in this price range for luxury vehicles, but I ignored that because the car is so awesome.But IT IS NOT INEXPENSIVE. If Tesla truly wants to be the car maker of the future, you do not win customers by after-the-fact costly add ons. First, a couple thousand for keeping the car under warranty. Now a couple thousand for the supercharger network. What will be the charge for wireless internet access? What will be the charge for the software updates?
Etc. etc.. Let's not even get into the punch list. My $68k optioned Model S (after federal tax credit) has ballooned to at least 72.4K with ranger 4 year service and superchanging for the 60kwh battery. Is Tesla going to charge for "updates" for supercharging as well? How about servicing after the first 4 years, or as other car companies call it, the covered warranty period. I am strongly considering cancelling.

SMOP | 28 septembre 2012

These sales practices do not seem to be any different (and probably worse) than car dealerships- probably more in line with used car dealerships. I thought the whole purpose of company owned stores was to reinvent the automobile sales model. I feel for your 60KW owners, Tesla pulled a similar tactic when people configured their Performance Model S with Carbon Fiber...Mysteriously the exterior carbon fiber was replaced with black plastic (due to durability issues which is not the case as I have Roadsters with the same CF bits and it has held up terrific). I wish Tesla had come back to 60KW owners and said we made a mistake, we thought we could include it but now the costs are greater than what we anticipated; maybe there would be some goodwill. Tesla coming up with this hardware and software story is plain ridiculous.

I bet there is a simple ON/OFF configuration option in the back-end of the OS that allows for supercharging, there is no way that the pure software costs equal 1k to activate the supercharger.

h8young | 28 septembre 2012

My deadline to finalize my order was today and I am now going to defer. I was planning on getting the 85kw battery anyways so the supercharger option pricing doesn't affect me but I'm very frustrated with the way Tesla has handled things the last few months, e.g. annual maintenance fee, promised features not being included in the delivered cars, lack of center console and not this. Now I just want to sit back and see how things shake out before I give any more money to Tesla.

Steve P5664 | 28 septembre 2012

As an reservation holder that locked in a less than a week ago, I am gravely disappointed in the "half price" $1000 additional charge beyond my contract. I moved from the 40kwh to the 60kwh for the supercharging feature. Living on long island, I hardly plan on taking it off long island and wanted the super charging for the occasional trip and resale value. Now i'm asked to pay more. $1000 more for something I will likely use less than a dozen times. I too was surprised at the steep warranty,service fees. I've been following this company for almost three years and the last few weeks have been the first times that I have begun to second guess my enthusiasm, support, and reservation. How dare Tesla insult it's customer with a "bait and switch" tactic.

As a TSLA shareholder, I say have the second offering, maintain your cash flow that way, sell more cars and become profitable. DO NOT disappoint your most loyal early adopters. Word of mouth will be worth much more than the $1000 per supercharge "testing".

As a individual with an MBA in marketing, I say rethink your latest strategy! I urge you to go back to the drawing board on this one. The warranty/service caused enough enthusiast to give pause.

I now have 10 days to decide to pay up, drop down to 40kwh or contact my attorney in order to get my deposit back.

CraigL | 28 septembre 2012

No need to contact your attorney and lose more money. Just ask and they will likely let you out of your MVPA.

mdennick | 28 septembre 2012

I am in fervent agreement with many of the comments above (shauk said it well). I put down my reservation over a year ago and locked in last month. I am an extreme Tesla advocate and constantly brag about this car and this car company to my friends and coworkers. That stops today, until Tesla resolves this. I was planning on a very long business relationship with this company, as long as I could trust it. TM, George, Elon please handle this PR misstep so that our trust in TM can be restored.

Maestrokneer | 28 septembre 2012

I had my car ready to finalize today, we just wanted to go for one more visit at Santana row (this is a SERIOUS stretch in economics for my wife and I).

Came home with the final decision to purchase after 3 years of waiting, completely giddy, and then sucker punched in the stomach by a $2000 hidden charge.

To say I feel betrayed is an understatement.

Come on Tesla, you're better than this.

jbunn | 28 septembre 2012

No worries on that. I have several friends that practice. I also have legal insurance which covers this sort of thing, so it's no cost to me.

I'm sure they will let me out of my MVPA. That's not what I want. I want the origional MVPA that I signed honored, including the delivery date, and I want them to honor the the information published publicly on their web site that Supercharging is included on the 60kW pack.

They are in the process of sending me a new MVPA to sign, which indicates my consent to the change. In the past with auto delears, I've scratched off the item price, changed it to zero, changed the price back to the origional price, initial the changes, sign it, and push it back across the desk to them. I can eiether do it, or if they prefer, I can have it sent from my attorney's office.

They can then choose to honor the amended agreement as mutualy agreeable, or default on the old MVPA. It's not going to be worth the bad publicity. We'll see what happens when the paperwork comes.

davidcjones | 28 septembre 2012

I feel pretty mixed about this. Since the original posting said TBD (and it probably said that at the time many people placed their reservations), even if it said, "included" later, it is a bit of a stretch to argue a reservation was made with it "included." On the other hand, I can feel the pain of those who felt they had actually had that option as included and now have to pay something. I am a Model S Signature owner. My Model S Signature was promised to be fully loaded and there were implications it would have features to make it top of the line. Those features turned out to be a more limited choice of paints than the production run (with one unique paint color) and a unique leather color—not stuff that really made it seem like the best of the best. The sunroof was not included. Expensive wheels were included, but Tesla recommended that many of us in the NE downgrade to the cheaper wheels due to the quality of roads here—and there was no decrease in the price. On top of that, we ended up being charged a more for this set of features than production customers were paid later—and all of that after giving Tesla $40K at 0% interest. So there was some disappointment, but then you realize that they are making a new car, we are putting down money sight unseen and they are likely doing their best. They need to bring this car to market in a timely manner (in order to survive as a company). They need to maintain cash flow and show balance sheets that keep Wall Street, the bank and the Feds happy.

Was I happy about a mandatory maintenance plan? No. Was I happy it was no more than I pay for my Roadster? Yes. Did it offer a way to limit the cost of Ranger visits (not something I can do with my Roadster yet)? Yes.

Overall, I have to believe Tesla is doing the best they can. George B claims that the lighted mirrors will come, rear seat LED lighting will be back and installed, and at some point center consoles will be available for those who want them as an option.

I didn't want to have to pay extra for my sunroof since I thought a Signature would be fully loaded, but I did, because I want the company to succeed and think this is a really amazing car even with that extra cost.

I will be interested in seeing how they deal with this, but I won't be surprised if it is similar to how they dealt with Signature: You can get out of the purchase or you can pony up.

Tough call for many I suppose, but I decided to stick with my Signature and am really glad I did.

Sudre_ | 28 septembre 2012

They could have just said that stopping at a supercharge station was not free for the people with the 60kWh battery. $100 per charge could have been the answer.

I think they should have left the TBA in place and offered a check box for those who were interested to be contacted once pricing was determined.

Brian H | 29 septembre 2012

Sudre_;
A charge per charge-up at the SC stations implies a whole billing and payment system that does not exist now (because "free" doesn't require it). No tracking at all is necessary now because only suitably equipped cars can use the connectors. So per-use fees are not on.

At $1000 for those who are getting retro-billed, you would have to travel 250 gallons of gas worth of distance, say 7000 miles as a rough average, on SuperCharger juice (in the car's lifetime) at $4/gal to break even, ignoring the time value of money. Double that for $2000. If that's unlikely (say for rare vacation takers, etc.) then the freedom to do so at will would have to make up for the difference.

For some who need SC for more routine purposes, the trade-off will be readily justified, in pure dollar terms.

Brian H | 29 septembre 2012

I take it that the underlying reason for the communications X-ups, including this one, is the very fast forced march that TM is on to get product to market. (Remember the scepticism that a whole car could be designed and a production line built and staffed and debugged and ... in the few years TM proposed?). The margins for error and dealing with unknowns and surprises etc. is small, and sometimes get overrun. Prioritizing drive train and handling, then ergonomics, has meant playing catch-up and non-show-stopper delays.

But I think those who think this is all a cynical con job, like Petersen and SMOP (despite his disingenuous disclaimers), are blowing fecal gas. As Elon said, and is obviously true, anyone who wants a decent return on capital should stay far away from the automotive industry.

Sudre_ | 29 septembre 2012

Obviously there is no means to pay for charging at the SC Brian. They are free. That is why I said the COULD have. That would of required them putting a system in place.... obviously.

The cost per anything with this car does not add up Brian. There is no saving at all. The maintenance is higher the upgrade to battery sizes leaves it cheaper to fly and rent.... I dropped the whole saving excuse long ago and just stuck with, "I want one."

Still... Along the lines of 60kWh battery range topic....

It appears that if you live in California the 60kWh battery is worth getting the SC access to travel. Looking at the map Tesla has laid out the SC are spaced out too far in the mid-west for a 60kWh battery to make it. This is very important for people to check before they dish out the $1000. I am still getting it and hoping they will space them out better with the extra revenue.
I live in St. Louis and will just be stuck in St. Louis. Lets look at the within 2 year map and guess at locations that are near the red dots.

Looks like they are putting one around Eureka, MO. There are many restaurants and a Six Flags there. I can reach that one at the posted speed limit. In reality it is probably somewhere closer to St. Louis along 270 between hwy55 and hwy64.

Remember I am using highways and you have to cross the Mississippi at a bridges so the as the crow flys circles they have drawn up don't work at all.

Next

There is one in Kansas city. 230 miles away. The posted speed is 70 MPH. Using R&B's actually numbers from driving around that puts the max range for the 60kWh battery at 150 miles with the A/C on.... so not going that way.

next

I was hoping for Bloomington but it look more like Champaign, Ill.
Bloomington is 192 miles and Chamoaign is 210 miles. Posted speed is 70 MPH. Not going to make it. Might be able to push it to Bloomington but the closer I look at the map and realize they are using hwy 72 the more I believe they are going with Champaign.

next

Somewhere are Clarksville, TN. 294 miles. The 85kWh battery won't make that one.

next

Somewhere near Memphis. 300 miles. Again the 85kWh battery can't make that.

next

Near Fort Smith, AK. 388 miles. Again the 85kWh battery can't make that.

That's it. Looking at the light range circle they have around the the red dot for St. Louis it look like the 85kWh battery barely makes it to them. Probably not at the posted speed with A/C. So even for the people with that battery they are stuck at an RV campground waiting for 2 hours to make it to the super charger.

Hopefully Tesla will rethink the Missouri SC locations. They really need one near Columbia, MO, Cape Girardeau, MO and one near Springfield, IL. Hopefully they will put them in the long term plan. Otherwise even people with the 85kWh pack are going nowhere in the Mid-west. Kansas City has a very similar problem.

Vall | 29 septembre 2012

@ Mark K

Those airplane models use different chemistry, most likely LiFePO4, which allows for very high charge and discharge rates. The downside is the energy density. Tesla had to use those batteries in order to offer the highest possible range, and you can see that the maximum power to the motor on the smaller packs will be less than the power on the 85kWh. This means that the battery cannot take more than about 4C discharge, non-continuous, and this is probably pushing it. The A123 LiFePO4 batteries in the same 18650 form-factor have 1.1Ah capacity, tesla uses 4Ah batteries in teh same size i believe. Not to mention the voltage on those is quite a bit higher than with the A123. So if tesla used those batteries instead, the battery pack would have less than 20kWh energy, and even at 10C wouldn't provide more power to the motor.

Vall | 29 septembre 2012

It was a bait-and-switch anyway you look at it, it was lame, but even lamer is the explanation that activating some some pre-installed hardware costs $1000, this is pure BS. No way flashing a piece of software costs $1000, this is the same as charging for flashing and testing the software that comes with the car, like the browser, the infotainment, nav etc. Why not charge a nice round sum for the water-proff testing at the end of assembly, say $500? That would look nice in the SEC filings. Investors will say "oh look, a nice stream of revenue!"

Sudre_ | 29 septembre 2012

There is a fee for final testing, "Final inspection, prep, and coordination $180.00" it is on my MVPA. At least it's not the $500 you suggested.

Volker.Berlin | 29 septembre 2012

Vall, just in case you didn't know: Water-proof testing does cost some non-trivial amount per car, but since it is non-optional, it does not have its own line in the contract. If you don't like the SC option or think that it's not worth the price that Tesla attached to it, then don't get it. End of story.

And by the way (just in case I did not mention it earlier), there are two other threads dealing with this topic in some detail. No need to turn this thread into the same direction.
http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/supercharging-hidden-charge-60-k...
http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/included-supercharger-costs-2k-e...

Please go post your sentiments there... Wait a moment, you did that already? You must be seriously suffering if you feel the urge to restate your opinion in every single thread that is only remotely related.

Vall | 29 septembre 2012

this thread had already taken that direction even before my first post, so I can take no credit for hijacking it. You see, even if you say end of story, that doesn't end the story, a lot of people are affected by that decision and are expressing their opinins.

Brian H | 29 septembre 2012

Vall;
GB states the setup of SC requires detailed hands-on balancing for each car, in factory, before delivery, not just a ROM flash. I guess he's lying, as you know more than him.

Or not.

Vall | 30 septembre 2012

Oh, no doubt he knows more than me, but I still think he is lying, it's his job to sometimes lie.

bsimoes | 30 septembre 2012

On the "Design" page, it now says that I last made changes on September 29th. I did not. I have had the 60 battery for months now. Because this "update" shows the 29th, it also shows the cost as being $2,000. Funny, I wasn't even home yesterday, and I haven't changed anything in months. Tesla, the $1,000 difference will cost you over $80,000. Did you think I wouldn't notice? If this is how your business operates prior to getting the car....Anybody else experience this on their design page? Better check! It feels a little slimy.

Vall | 30 septembre 2012

It's interesting that tesla has absolutely no problem of giving you the preinstalled SC hardware FOR FREE if you opt-out or not even order it in the first place. $1000 worth of hardware. But they cannot give away the $1000 they supposedly need for calibration and testing to the customers who ordered when the website said "included". They will only go as far as charging half the price, $1000...

sergiyz | 30 septembre 2012

I don't understand why they didn't call it a "pre-paid SC plan" or "SC use fee".
It would be easier to sell that than a back charge for a BS software activation and testing.
As far as pricing goes, a $1,000 would buy you a lot of gasoline.
Even at $80 to fill up and 300 miles range (on a low MPG car using premium gas), that's still about 4,000 miles worth of driving.
Considering the SCs are for occasional use and not even accessible to most customers in the next couple of years, I don't see the point for 60kw owners to opt-in for it unless Tesla makes it free like they did for the 85kw cars.

Brian H | 30 septembre 2012

Give it up. It is not just "software activation and testing". The individual cables have to be fine-tuned and adjusted to that car's particular geometry to prevent battery damage with the 100A feed,

Vall | 1 octobre 2012

Did you just make that thing with the geometry up? What tolerances is the production line churning out, so that there will be such substantial difference in geometry, that the cables need to be fine tuned for each individual car? It is either the batteries in the pack can take 100 amps or they can't, once the pack is sealed, the batteries are there to stay. Either the pack is designed with 100 A in mind or it is not, which would mean there are two separate packs with two different charge current ratings. Which there aren't. If the cables are rated for the voltage and current, then they are rated for the voltage and current. If there is any difference in length, it will be a few centimeters at most, and they could get it down to millimeters. Which translates to a few milliohms difference. And since voltage sensing is most likely done at the battery terminals, this difference and the voltage drop it causes has no influence to the voltage that the battery pack terminals see. 100A is a lot, but it is not something extraordinary that would require some unbelievable technology to achieve. Testing after assembly is certainly needed to verify everything works, but it is also needed for everything else.

Brian H | 1 octobre 2012

Vall;
From the 'faq email' sent out 9/28:

CAN I DECIDE LATER, AFTER I TAKE DELIVERY?
No. Superchargers charge at a rate 4.5 times faster than our next fastest charging solution. All that power must be safely routed through your Model S using special cables that bypass onboard chargers, and must be extensively calibrated and tested during production. We cannot add Supercharging to your car after you take delivery.

jbunn | 1 octobre 2012

Brian,

True, and from the website at the same time and prior, in the 60's the hardware was included.

What point exactly are you trying to make? I don't think anyone here is aguing that the hardware should be able to be installed at any time after build.

But as an interesting thought experiment, what if a SC component became defective or was subject to recall? Or crashed? Would the car be considered a "total" loss? I suggest that there would be a way to fix it.

Now, to be honest, adding it later might be cost prohibitive. Say 2K now, or 9K later, but these things have a way of getting done. Better to say that, I think.

Brian H | 1 octobre 2012

GB's original email, adjusted/corrected later?, indicated activation had to be done at the factory at time of manufacture. That has consequences! In any case, I think the issue of 60s using the network is a borderline possibility for most. (And it would take >10,000 miles of highway travel powered by the SCs to break even on reduction of gas costs.)

Most are going to find that SC for 60s is more trouble than it's worth, I suspect. The overall impact of the n/w in the end is going to be a big push to the sales of 85s (and maybe long-range GenIIIs, which should be appearing about the time the bulk of the network in the US is filled in -- 2016-7.)

jbunn | 2 octobre 2012

I think to be cost effective, yes, it does. It would be a bit like buying a new Ford Mustang with one motor or say an automatic transmission, and swapping it out after delivery with a different motor, or putting in a manual transmission. Can it be done? Well, yeah. Does it make sense to do? Expensive as hell. Does not compute.

Actualy, I live in the Northwest which is where I planned on staying when I reserved the car, but will relocate a stones throw from Fremont in the next year based on recent events. And I have family on both sides of the bay and in LA, so this actualy is a major game changer for me. I would have prefered the 85, but I'm already pushing my limit with this one. I think even with the existing stations, I can easily get around.

Brian H | 2 octobre 2012

jbunn;
So you get the no-sales tax delivery in the NW and then move to CA!. Verrry clevah!

jbunn | 3 octobre 2012

Aye, true. Wasn't quite planned that way, but it seems to be heading in that direction. I guess I'll have to pay for license plates twice in less than a year. And I'll have huge ugly prius lane stickers on all four corners of my car eventualy.

I've been really lucky here. We had one of the early stores (now our service center) and they opened a retail branch in Bellevue in the last year. So we've been kind of early adopters, and I drank the kool-aid and found it to be good pretty early. Wish I would have plunked down some Bens earlier, and I might be looking at November. Ah well.