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EMF radiation

EMF radiation

Has Tesla considered protecting the driver and passengers from EMF radiation emitting from the battery pack?

I drive a hybrid and the EMF’s are very strong in the car
causing me to become exhausted on a long trip.

There are materials to shield the passenger compartment from radiation and it could be added or offered as an option for those of us who are concerned about exposure.

Shielding materials are available, here's a link:
http://lessemf.com/magnetic_shielding.html

I believe this is an important issue and needs to be given some priority.

In Switzerland shielding materials are installed on rooftops of schools and other institutions before installing solar systems.

robertcanada888

Jaffray | 25 septembre 2010

Robert, these is a good discussion of this topic at thr Club website... http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/2335-EMF-Radiation-and-the...

Hope this helps!

jmathews | 26 septembre 2010

Shielding for solar systems? Seems a little strange since the panels are DC not AC. If there were any concern in an EV you'd think it'd be from the induction motor not the battery.

Brian H | 26 septembre 2010

Radiation is good for you; a certain amount keeps the DNA repair mechanisms tuned up.

Douglas3 | 27 septembre 2010

Electromagnetic energy at or below microwave frequencies simply doesn't have enough energy to break molecular bonds, so it cannot damage DNA. You need UV, X-rays, gamma rays or ionizing radiation to do that; none of which are generated by ordinary electronics and power systems.

txjak | 27 septembre 2010

"I drive a hybrid and the EMF’s are very strong in the car causing me to become exhausted on a long trip."

How do you know that electromagnetic radiation is causing your problem? Is there no other factor of driving the car that could make you exhausted? For example, if you're paying more attention to the readouts, or you're driving technique is different, or the seating is different -- couldn't they at least be contributors, if not the cause?

Depending on the type of hybrid you're driving ( see http://j.mp/d6Q0UP ) you may find that you're not using that much electricity on a long trip anyway, if a gas engine is doing most of the work.

robertcanada888 | 27 septembre 2010

Interesting how many experts come out of the woodwork when the status quo is questioned.

Brian H - Where are you getting your information that EMF radiation emitting from electronic equipment is good for us, do more research please.

Douglas3 - Electromagnetic fields at or below microwave are a risk to some people. If you have any qualifications and evidence please post them because your statment is outdated considering the latest evidence. You must be reading the denial of the cell phone companies that their products are causing illness.

txjak- I drive an average of 40,000 kl a year and have driven my hybrid for more than 4 years. I have considered other factors and have narrowed the exhaustion to the EMF radiation. I also have challenges with my prostate. Recently I discovered materials to shield me from the EMF's. I will post the results after it is installed.

Jaffray | 27 septembre 2010

Robert, to be fair, I think you need to consider this...

Just as you have asked others here for more in depth proof to substantiate their assertions, you are subject to the same burden of proof to further support your observations.

My wife and I have logged over 230,000 kms in hybrids since 2005 and neither of us have observed anything in ourselves to support your position.

Timo | 27 septembre 2010

Ever used hands free systems in car? The ear plugs with your iPod? Here's what you do then: you put an magnet and electronics *inside* you head that goes in frequencies way higher than AC motor. Because effect of magnetic and electric fields have exponentially smaller effect the more distance they have those headphones cause a lot bigger EMF field to you than batteries or AC engine of wiring or anything in your car. Hundreds, maybe thousands of times higher.

Ever had any ill effects from them?

Douglas3 | 27 septembre 2010

"Douglas3 - Electromagnetic fields at or below microwave are a risk to some people. If you have any qualifications and evidence please post them because your statment is outdated considering the latest evidence. You must be reading the denial of the cell phone companies that their products are causing illness."

Qualifications: P.Eng., M.Eng, B.A.Sc. with 26 years experience. Multiple patents, including several for electromagnetic particle sensors used on jet engines. So I am pretty knowledgeable about how electromagnetic fields interact with matter.

I was responding to Brian H, who implied that DNA damage could result from field exposure. This is impossible with the frequencies being used in an EV.

Now you could *cook* someone with enough microwave energy, but that would be heat damage. It also requires power levels massively higher than that produced by an "unintentional radiator".

EVs don't use microwave energy. They use VERY low frequencies for the chopper drive that runs the motor. If there is any microwave emission from an EV at all, the level will be orders of magnitude lower than that from a cell phone, which is actually designed to make microwaves. And even then, cell phone power levels are pretty low. You can't cook dinner with a cell phone.

You might want to read the October 2010 issue of Scientific American. In his Skeptic column, Michael Shermer wrote a very nice explanation, based on elementary physics, of why cell phones can't damage DNA.

txjak | 28 septembre 2010

robertcanada888 - I think the burden of proof rests with you. Scientific evidence that the hybrid you drive is causing the problem would probably get the attention of the manufacturer, especially if more people were making the same complaint.

ChadS | 28 septembre 2010

I have a friend that is very concerned about radiation and other hard-to-detect health risks. He brought an EMF reader with him when I gave him a ride.

He didn't tell me the numbers, but after a minute of staring at his reader, he laughed and put it away, saying it wasn't high enough to worry about.

Todd Burch | 30 septembre 2010

EMF is not a problem. I'm more concerned about the gas fumes I breathe in while I'm refueling at the local Shell station.

Brian H | 1 octobre 2010

I was actually talking about environmental ionizing radiation. It's a variation on the "hygiene hypothesis" theme. A little radon is good for you!

Dan5 | 1 octobre 2010

I completely agree with Todd. If you are at a self service station- typically you "drip" 3 drops of gas every time you fuel up and this gets almost immediately vaporized. 20 drips = 1 ml. the math gets really complicated for exposure, but as a decent estimate to simplify calculations take a 3 ft sphere volume convert to liters and divide by 6 (lung volume) and multiply by 3 drips * 52weeks* 60 years/20 drop/ml. If you fuel up 1/week, over the course of your lifetime you would be breathing in about 7 mL and consider between 1 to 4% of that is benzene, that's alot of exposure to a known carcinogen and gasoline-potential carcinogen (causes cancer in rats) which can be avoided

Brian H | 1 octobre 2010

Dan5;
You've assumed you inhale 100% of the vapors. It's probably a tiny fraction of 1%. It disperses and is carried away by any slightest breeze.

Brian H | 1 octobre 2010

Radiation:
http://opinion.financialpost.com/2010/09/24/lawrence-solomon-radiations-...

"Take the case of “an almost perfect study in a human population that demonstrates the highly significant protective effects of near-continuous exposure to gamma radiation.” This case involved more than 180 apartment buildings that had been constructed in Taiwan in the early 1980s using recycled steel that was subsequently discovered to have been contaminated with radioactive cobalt-60. The 10,000 people who were housed there received large doses of radiation over a period of nine to 20 years that, according to LNT theory, should have led to a total of 302 cancer deaths over the 1983-2003 period studied, 232 of which would have been ordinarily expected had no radiation exposure occurred, with the additional 70 stemming from the exposure. To the researchers’ surprise, however, only seven cancer deaths were found, 225 fewer than would have been expected had the buildings been free of radiation. Instead of radiation increasing the death toll by 30%, it may have reduced the death toll by a staggering 97%."

Douglas3 | 1 octobre 2010

Gamma ray radiation is MUCH more powerful -- orders of magnitude -- than anything generated by an EV.

Vawlkus | 5 octobre 2010

It's been tested before by several people. BEV's produce next to zero EMF in comparison to cell phones, and a cell is a LOT closer to your gray matter.

boenque | 22 août 2011

Electromagnetic Fields are everywhere. Even though the regular gas engine cars carry the EMF. As long as there is an electric current in a car, EMF is there. Regardless of how much the impact, it does not matter. Our bodies expose to the EMF fields every single minute. Whether we are in the car, on the phone, Bluetooth, at the house, in front of the computer, sitting and watching TV, or even just sit and do nothing.

The electric cars are delivering a huge amount of electric waves and vibrations that give the impact to our blood. A 30 minute drive with a Hybrid car. Manufacture of cars such as Audi, Mercedez, BWW and Porche give an added information about the technology they use in the car, example such as Audi MMI will produce EMF inside the car. Actually, even the manufactures know this. It is up to the consumers to make a right educated decision and solutions.

The test shown on the blood sample of Hans Joachim Stuck, a Racing Legend and his 2 sons in Germany on May 14 and May 15, 2011 at the Nurburgring race track with his Lamborghini LG 600, shown the result as follows:

1. Rouleaux formation and correlation at 72% value.
2. Filite (oxidativer Stres) at 8%
3. Neutrophile Granulozyt at 2%

After using the memon environmental technology that based on the standard light pectrum (Resonance and vibration), it neutralized the EMF in his lamborghini and the test result shows as follows:

1. Rouleaux formation and correlation at 23% value.
2. Filite (oxidativer Stres) at 1%
3. Neutrophile Granulozyt at 1%

There are more into this live test. I hope this will help you all.
Let me know if you have any questions.

Thank's

EdG | 22 août 2011

No one has shown that electromagnetic waves from cell phones, electric motors, etc. are harmful.

The far higher level of danger from gasoline fires, exhaust fumes and pollution including oil spills, etc., has already been cited in this forum.

Nicu | 23 août 2011

The smell of gasoline when you fill up (in fact vapor) is carcinogen.

Brian H | 25 août 2011

bunk, above, has obviously had numerous EMF-induced short circuits. Condolences.

jeffpoel | 7 septembre 2013

As a government scientist for 25 years with an MS in Toxicology who participated as a panel member on multiple human health risk assessments at the community level, I'm qualified to comment on the EMF issue. In the 1990s, USEPA published a risk assessment that addressed low frequency EMF and proposed risk based exposure levels to same. This resulted in the introduction of shielding to computer monitors and the like at considerable cost to industry and consumers. The agency later retracted the paper after it underwent peer review and was determined to be based on many false assumptions and it was relegated to junk science. Thus, there are no credible, peer reviewed studies that show EMF to be harmful to human health.

Dramsey | 7 septembre 2013

I drive a hybrid and the EMF’s are very strong in the car
causing me to become exhausted on a long trip.

Because nobody becomes exhausted after a long trip in an ICE car, right?

Sorry you're getting piled on like this, but your assertion is simply silly. We have many decades of data on the effect of low-level (and even high-level) EMF fields on people. The World Health Organization has a nice precisé here. Here's the salient quote:

In the area of biological effects and medical applications of non-ionizing radiation approximately 25,000 articles have been published over the past 30 years. Despite the feeling of some people that more research needs to be done, scientific knowledge in this area is now more extensive than for most chemicals. Based on a recent in-depth review of the scientific literature, the WHO concluded that current evidence does not confirm the existence of any health consequences from exposure to low level electromagnetic fields.

I'll grant the possibility that you're somehow uniquely sensitive to EMF and are in fact effected by driving a hybrid or electric car. If you really think this is the case, then you should stop doing so.

Don Schmidt | 7 septembre 2013

When are we not in the vacinity of emf? Those lights in the room are electric; the TV is electric; the ignition in the ice is electric; every wall in your home has wires - electic; every room at our place of work has wires in the walls and ceiling for electicity. In your town, do you have electic buses or trains? Electriciy is safe unless you become part of the circuit.

Don
Vancouver, WA

p1SL | 7 septembre 2013

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence" - the late, great, Christopher Hitchens

carolinagobo | 7 septembre 2013

Yeah CO2 is better at list you died without knowing

Brian H | 8 septembre 2013

cberman;
More sub-scientific confusion. You're talking about CO1=CO=Carbon Monoxide, which causes sleepiness, unconsciousness and death*. CO2 causes none of the above, unless it is displacing O2 in the air and causing suffocation. Which is uncomfortable, distressing, and will cause unpleasant death.

*by preferentially bonding to blood hemoglobin, preventing O2 transport throughout the body.

Every breath you exhale is about 40,000 ppm (4%) CO2, 100X current ambient. If you want to do your garden a favor, breath or blow on it.

Brian H | 8 septembre 2013

typo: breathe or blow on it.

cloroxbb | 8 septembre 2013

Even if EMF could kill us, population control is needed anyway so who gives a shit?

We are all going to die at some point, so why not enjoy life instead of worrying about EMF that may or may not have adverse effects on your health? :)

2kids10horses | 8 septembre 2013

This is a tough crowd.

For those of you who are not affected by environmental issues, it is hard to believe that something like EMFs can affect anyone.

I'm a Realtor, and I had a client who was definitely sensitive to EMFs. I took her to many, many houses. One time, she forgot to bring her EMF detector, and, wouldn't you know, she really liked the layout of one particular house. So, we stayed in there for about an hour as she mentally "placed furniture". But, she started to feel ill. There were no large overhead power lines, I had checked that before I showed it. She couldn't determine why she felt ill, she just did.

A week later, we came back with her meter, and indeed it showed that the EMFs were very high. I don't know why they were high, maybe not grounded properly? Don't know. She couldn't buy that house.

Another house had the electrical meter placed on the outside wall of the master bedroom. Again, high EMFs. Another house had the A/C units outside the Master bedroom. High EMFs.

The EMFs would cause this lady to experience fatigue and body aches similar to when you have the flu.

My wife has similar sensitivities, but not to EMFs. Chemicals.

So, guys, let's cut robertcanada888 a little slack. Obviously he wants a Tesla. And it sounds like he is working on a solution to his particular issue. Rather than deride him, let's applaud his efforts!

carlk | 8 septembre 2013

It had been scientifically proved that all ICE drivers will die one day.

AmpedRealtor | 8 septembre 2013

I have a friend. She moves from one health crisis to another even though there is nothing wrong with her. Her health issues are in her head and nothing more than a way to gain sympathy from those around her and to become the center of attention at any gathering.

I showed several homes to an elderly man who claimed he was an investor looking to buy some homes, had $500,000 to spend and needed to buy something in the next week. At the first property I became suspicious because he was wearing what looked like pajamas. At the 2nd property I noticed that he wreaked of urine. He mentioned that he worked with another agent in the past, so I thought I'd giver her a call quickly while he was inspecting the garage. She told me that he used to be a house flipper about 20-30 years ago, but today spends his days in an assisted care facility. He apparently suffers from some dementia and tries to relive his glory days when they let him off the farm.

I'm just sharing these stories because you can't always take what someone says at face value. Sometimes there are psychological or other issues involved.

Dramsey | 8 septembre 2013

For those of you who are not affected by environmental issues, it is hard to believe that something like EMFs can affect anyone.

No, it's hard to believe because thousands of studies over several decades have failed to show that EMFs can affect anyone. See my previous post with the World Health Organization link.

People are free to believe whatever silly thing they want, of course. But the science is settled. You can't argue with science.™

soma | 8 septembre 2013

If the woman can sit in a room and tell me accurately when I turn on and off the silent inverter in the room next door, then I'll believe that she's EMF-sensitive. Otherwise, this is psychosomatic and a person creating her own problems for some sense of self satisfaction.

Anyone can claim that they're sensitive at some point during a walk around a average house, and you can find some source afterwards. The scary thing is that they can make others cater to their needs.

Reminds me of the cranks who write to the utility complaining of brain-interfering waves from their smart electric meters. Only to be told that they have not yet been installed.

PaceyWhitter | 8 septembre 2013

To be fair to Robert, I have had my cthulhu warding device fully EMF shielded and I have yet to have any sickness issues. And still Cthulhu free!

2kids10horses | 8 septembre 2013

@AmpedRealtor:

Good story, we have all run into cases like that.

But, that's not the case here. My client is/was my wife's dentist.

My wife suffers from chemical sensitivities.

As an example, let's take MSG. A common food additive, a lot of processed food has it. But in my wife's case, it causes severe migraine headaches. Oh, there's been studies that it's safe and it has no effect, but they're wrong.

The issue with my wife is the migraine comes on about 4 hours after she's ingested the MSG. She gets the blurry vision that precedes the headache. We've found that a large dose of ibuprophen will stop the headache, but if she doesn't get it quickly, she can have a migraine for two days.

Here's the kicker: Let's say she eats something, and the blurry vision starts up. She reviews what she ate 4 hours earlier. If we go back to find the ingredients, we'll find that there is/was "hidden MSG" in the food. Perhaps a casserole used Campbell's Cream of Mushroom or Chicken soup as the base. It has MSG as one of the ingredients. Or maybe it used Parmeson Cheese as an ingredient. MSG occurs naturally in that cheese (and other aged cheeses).

In fact, MSG is hidden in a lot of foods, and therefore she is reluctant to eat anything other than foods she prepares herself.

I have no problem with MSG. But she does.

My wife also has problems with common environmental chemicals such as chlorine, formaldehyde, bromine, etc. Again, most people can tolerate low levels of these substances. My wife cannot.

I suspect it is because her father ran a dry cleaner's when she was a little girl. And she spent a lot of time there. Back in those days, they used to "moth proof" clothes using DDT. So I'm sure she inhaled a lot of DDT. And I think that has caused her to be sensitive to a lot of chemicals.

To get back on topic, I applaude the effort to check for EMF's. I am test driving a Tesla next week, and I'll be checking on how much "new car smell" is present. If it's relatively low, then I can consider purchasing a Tesla, and "baking it out" so my wife can ride in it. If not, then I'll have to wait about 3 years until used ones become available.

shop | 8 septembre 2013

MSG sensitivity and EMF sensitivity are two completely different things. I can easily believe the former, but not the latter.

PaceyWhitter | 8 septembre 2013

MSG syndrome has been more thoroughly debunked than EMF.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/aug/12/msg-allergy-chinese...

shop | 8 septembre 2013

At least with MSG there is a possible mechanism...

michael1800 | 8 septembre 2013

EMF produced 'unbelievable' results in the 90s. While it is slightly older information, the outcome was indisputable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waacof2saZw

mrspaghetti | 8 septembre 2013

@michael1800 - one can protect themselves from that kind of EMF with earplugs. And I highly recommend it...

2kids10horses | 9 septembre 2013

@shop:

I don't know who Jeremy Goldkorn is, but I read the article he wrote that you posted the link to. In it says that MSG poses no risk for the majority of people who ingest it. And I would agree.

But there is a minority of people that it does affect. And my wife is one of them.

I can guarantee you that if you fed her something with MSG in it, 4 hours later she could tell you whether it had MSG in it or not.

MSG enhances food flavor by causing the taste buds in the tongue to swell. Which makes tastes stronger. In my wife, it causes the blood vessels in her brain expand. Which causes migraine headaches.

@soma:

My dentist client cannot detect EMFs. So she would fail your test. But prolonged exposure to EMFs for her causes a general feeling of fatigue and malaise. She got that "feeling" after about an hour in that one house I showed her. When we went back to that house the next week, and read the reading with her meter, it showed a very high level of EMFs. I spent several months with her showing her dozens of houses before she bought one. Only a few houses had EMFs that registered on her meter. That one in particular was extremely high. Was it just coincidence? Maybe. I have no proof other than what happened to that lady at that house.

Again, back to Tesla: I am hoping my wife can tolerate a Tesla interior until it outgasses, and then I'm sure she'll love it since there's no gasoline or exhaust fumes.

bent | 9 septembre 2013

The MSG story as presented has a serious problem of confirmation bias. Essentially, the story is that every time there is a migraine a study is made and it is determined that some foodstuff had MSG in it. However, whenever a migraine does not manifest itself such a study is apparently not made.

Since, as has been noted, pretty much anything can have MSG in it chances are whenever you do such a thorough study of what you have eaten recently you will probably find that something or other did have MSG in it. In order to make credible claims as to whether MSG is involved in the migraines it is necessary that recently ingested foods be examined for MSG whether there is a migraine or not, which in essence means that the person would need to keep a precise diary of everything eaten over an extensive period of time and make an equally thorough examination of MSG content both in migraine periods and in normal ones.

To illustrate the causality problem evident in this case: whenever I have a splitting headache* I examine whether I had spent any amount of time drinking water in the hours before the headache struck. I have found that pretty near 100% of the time that I have had a headache I have indeed been drinking water or beverages that contain a significant percentage of water within the preceding few hours. (Erroneous) conclusion: The drinking of water is therefore the cause of all my headaches.

* I do not say migraines because luckily I have not had them.

shop | 9 septembre 2013

@2kids10horses, you got me mixed up with someone else, I haven't posted a link here. Maybe your browser is making attribution of posts misleading.

jat | 9 septembre 2013

@2kids10horses - my point is that there are so many sources of EMF, that riding in a Tesla is the least cause for concern. Before you get down to worrying about that, you need to not have a cellphone remotely near you, don't have Wifi anywhere you go (good luck with that), don't use a microwave, etc (maybe they should live in a Faraday cage). All these things are actually in frequencies that we know *do* cause harm (just not at the levels you will encounter), which is unlike the lower frequencies you get from power electronics.

Assuming you take the OP at their word, they already experience issues with a hybrid, which is at much lower power levels compared to the Model S. What can possibly be accomplished by posting here? If I were such a person, already knowing I experience something that practically nobody else does, what would I hope to gain by asking if other people have had a problem? Instead, I would ask to take actual measurements and compare them to environments where I did and didn't have a problem.

It just doesn't make any sense, so that is why the poster has experienced this reaction. Either they are an attention hound or have different motives than expressed.

PaceyWhitter | 9 septembre 2013

@2kids10horses

I was the one that posted the link. I don't doubt that your wife feels ill after knowingly ingesting MSG. The mind is a powerful thing. That does not mean that the MSG is the cause. You should read up on the nocebo effect.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2013/0...

Sorry for the threadjack, but I have a biochemistry degree and little engineering knowledge so while I am little help in busting the EMF myth, I am on much more stable footing here.

2kids10horses | 9 septembre 2013

@PaceyWhitter,

My apologies at misattributing the link.

@bent,

What you don't know (because I didn't say it) is my wife DID log everything she ate. For several years. (And for what it's worth, when she first came down with this problem, she was in her 20's, and her migraines were so severe, she was hospitalized. They thought she had a brain tumor, but negative on that, thank goodness. Finally, it was her gynecologist who asked her if she ate at Chinese Restaurants a lot. And she had. Which put her on the trail to suspecting MSG. Since that time, she started logging her foods.)

And, just so you know, she never knowingly eats anything with MSG. Who wants to give themselves a migraine? No, we rarely eat at restaurants because this problem. She cooks all her food at home. The times she accidently eats anything with MSG is when we go to my sister's for Thanksgiving dinner, or something like that. If she gets a migraine, we then go back to try to find out what caused it. We have no MSG containing foods in the house. We carefully read a lot of labels.

It's truly amazing what all can have it. I like to bake bread in the breadmaker. But I can't use "Bread Flour" because of the high gluten content. "All purpose" flour is lower in glutens, and my wife can tolerate that. English peas are high in MSG. She can eat a Domino's pizza. But not one from Pizza Hut.

I have lived with her for 20 years. And seen the results of what happens if she accidently eats something with MSG. I can guarantee it affects her.

No, she has never done a "double blind" test. Can't blame her, who wants to get a migraine just to prove they get sick from eating something she can avoid eating. Just to prove a point? Not worth it. And even then, there would be some "know it all" who would try to say it doesn't happen... Just be glad you're not affected.

soma | 9 septembre 2013

MSG sensitivity is quite believable. I myself get noticeable tightening in my jaw after eating MSG-heavy foods.

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