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German pricing, I'm in tears and out of the game

German pricing, I'm in tears and out of the game

In Germany the Tesla Model S will cost MORE €UROS THAN $ IN US!... so, the price is more than 30% above the US-pricing!
That's real bad, Teslas. I'm a stockholder, reservationholder and follower since 2010, but this is just ... wordless.
Better, I use my ICE for the next Years and everyone else should, too ... the teslaguys always told me, there will be more or less 15% priceincrease, but 30%?
71000€ for the 60KW/h and more than 100.000€ pricing for the performance is just barefaced.
If Your goal is to bring EV's to a broader market, just make a fair price!

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-20/tesla-begins-europe-push-with-h...

dborn @nsw.au | 20 décembre 2012

Whity, the real comparison is to the competition. How does it compare to Mercedes or BMW. ? Lexus and Infinti?

Sindre M. | 20 décembre 2012

But the pricing makes sense when you include VAT and taxes? In Norway the performance is priced at approx. €80.000 (no VAT or taxes on MS), add 25% VAT and you get €100.000 (and that´s before other taxes that might occur in other countries).

This is the first time I have seen a car that is cheaper in Norway than Germany, see how long it lasts when the government see how popular the MS will be...

Timo | 20 décembre 2012

30% includes VAT which is in germany 19%, that leaves 11% which might consist from delivery costs from US to Europe. If you add that delivery cost (constant figure) first, which you probably have to, then that VAT is actually more than 19% of US price.

30% is not much IMO. I'm expecting closer to 100% for Finland.

Chuck Lusin | 20 décembre 2012

What percent is the VAT?
I calculated a 35.17% increase.
I was using the $59,900 + $7,500 + $2,500.

Sorry to hear about such a huge jump in costs. What about a US delivery and pricing, opposite of the BMW pick up thing? You would be buying a used car, maybe cheaper?

Mark E | 20 décembre 2012

What taxes are involved there? Don't forget that in the US everything is quoted *before* tax.

tomas.hutters | 20 décembre 2012

I think sindremariero hits it on the spot: we need to look at the Norwegian prices because they do not include VAT (or, rather, they include the Norwegian 0% VAT). I made a very fast and sloppy calculation based on the 85 kWh, using reasonable exchange rates etc. - this shows a ~15% price increase over the US prices.

Jolinar | 20 décembre 2012

Whity Whiteman, US prices include federal tax credit and do not include VAT if I am right...

if my calculations are right... EU prices in USD are (VAT excluded):
79200$ for basic 60kWh instead US 69900$
121110$ for basic signature performance instead US 107900$
that means less than 15% increase in price, so actually Tesla gut was right, you just have to take in account much higher VAT in Europe...

well, you are lucky guys in US that you have so low VAT and lax credit for EVs...

PS: VAT in Czech Republic will be 21% next year, damn...

Timo | 20 décembre 2012

Norway price for Perfomance: 80,714.00 EUR
German price for Perfomance: 95,900.00 EUR

Difference: 19%. German VAT 19%. No VAT in Norway, so German base price before VAT is pretty much same.

US price for performance: $69900 + $7500 = $77400 = 58,347.24 EUR

Difference to Norway = 22,366.76 EUR.

That's rather high "delivery cost". There seems to be quite high EU extra in those prices, so disappointment in understandable.

Carefree | 20 décembre 2012

Timo, the US price for performance is $84,900 plus the $7,500 tax credit plus the $2,500 price increase - that's a total of $94,900! Your math is way off.

tomas.hutters | 20 décembre 2012

Timo, I like your approach, but did not you use an incorrect US price (non-P 85 kWh) for the Performance? Using current exchange rates, I get these numbers:

Norway price for P: 80,714.00 EUR
US price for P: 69,656.00 EUR
Increase US -> Norway: 11,058.00 EUR = 15,87%

Carefree | 20 décembre 2012

It is important to remember that all US prices are quoted without ANY applicable taxes because they vary from state to state. Therefor if you want to compare the Euro price you need to deduct the VAT (and duty) from the German pricing. VAT (Mehrwertsteuer) alone is close to 20%. I have no idea what German customs (Zoll) slaps onto US made cars.

Jolinar | 20 décembre 2012

Timo,
US price for performance is $84,900 + 7500 (tax credit) + 2500 (price increase) = 94,900$ before VAT = 71747eur before VAT.
German performance 80588eur before VAT (95,900e including VAT).
So the difference is 8,841eur between US price and German price for performance not 22,366eur.

$69,900 + $7500 is 85kWh basic (no performance, no price increase).

tomas.hutters | 20 décembre 2012

...and I forgot to include the price increase in the US price. However, ~15% still holds true.

Whity Whiteman | 20 décembre 2012

... than my question is: does the netherlands-distribution-center not change the VAT? If You produce in Europe instead of US...

and Jolinar, maybe You got it wrong. The price difference for the 60KWh-model is

Germany $94,370 US $67,400 ....
THAT's 40% !!!

Sounds like a broken promise to me. Is Tesla struggeling with revenue, that they need to do this? I was shure to buy the Performance, but know I think, I will not buy anything... except the stock triples in the next months

Jolinar | 20 décembre 2012

tomas.hutters,
yes, it is something between 10-15% price increase for EU, I hoped for less increase, but maybe import duties or local fees are more than I expected...

Jolinar | 20 décembre 2012

Whity Whiteman,
you are wrong... German 71.400 € = $94,440 however this include VAT while US price don't... You can not compare price with VAT and price without VAT :(

Jolinar | 20 décembre 2012

Whity Whiteman,
German without VAT is $79,361
US without VAT is 59,900+7500+2500 = 69,900
difference is only $9,461 before applying VAT. That means it is price increase 14% for Tesla. For customers it is more because VAT in Europe is way higher than in US. You see it as higher difference because you didn't count all stuff in it.

Timo | 20 décembre 2012

Oops, my mistake everyone. Got confused about third battery choice being standard 85kWh and not the performance like it is in European sites (no 40kWh version on European sites).

Norbert.Vienna | 20 décembre 2012

there is a 10% import duty too before VAT for US cars

Jolinar | 20 décembre 2012

if somebody wants to see EU prices without VAT you can choose region "Other Europe" and then select Options & pricing. That are the prices without VAT for less prospective markets in EU....

Fred O | 20 décembre 2012

Taking into account the VAT and credit differences the base 60kW car will cost exactly 60.000 euros in Holland (excl. VAT). That is an 11% increase compared to the US price (dollar vs euro = 0,78). I would consider that way more than some business expenses, but I just checked: importing a US car into Holland is subject to a 10% duty.
I don't know if that is true for the whole of Europe, but it is something that puts the increase in another perspective. Also, we could/should have checked this bofore the announcements of today.
This may be a case of `Earth calling Fred, please exit virtual reality please` :-(

Whity Whiteman | 20 décembre 2012

but again: does the european facility not change the VAT-issue because of inner-european-production?

Volker.Berlin | 20 décembre 2012

Whity, don't mix up VAT ("Mehrwertsteuer") and import duty ("Einfuhrzoll"). VAT is due on all items that are sold to consumers. The only way to avoid it is to buy the Model S (or any car) for business.

Jolinar | 20 décembre 2012

Whity Whiteman,
well, dont know exactly however if 95% of he car is produced in US and only some finishing stuff in EU, I guess it won't change anything :(
But maybe I am wrong on this subject, I have no idea how much of the car is produced in US and how much will be finished in EU.

Volker.Berlin | 20 décembre 2012

Jolinar, as far as I can tell, you are right on.

Jolinar | 20 décembre 2012

I am bit dissapointed that they didn't say anything about 3-phase charging in Europe. Elon confirmed it on twitter long time ago, but nothing else since than. Even this web is completly silent on this topic... I am still scared that it won't be true 3-phase but only some kind of using between-phase voltage -> and than not true 20kW :(

It is weird to know the price but don't know what is included in this price. At least they could put it on bulletin board.

Whity Whiteman | 20 décembre 2012

ähm, is there no VAT in the US? They buy it "netto"?

Volker.Berlin | 20 décembre 2012

Whity, in the United States, each state has its own tax laws with different VAT and different EV incentives. They have to pay VAT, but prices are usually quoted without, because otherwise you couldn't give a price without knowing which state the customer is in. Americans are used to put on the applicable VAT by themselves. In most European countries, on the other hand, it is forbidden by law to quote prices of consumer goods without VAT included. This is to protect the consumer from getting a wrong impression of the price he or she is going to pay. It may also be convenient for the government that this rule covers up how much VAT we are paying. It simply evades us, but 19% is substantial.

Brant | 20 décembre 2012

My US P85 had $8500 tax bill with another $750 in fees for registration, license, etc.
The car cost was a bit over 100k

Jacques | 20 décembre 2012

To Jolinar
I was in Tesla Store Eindhoven 7 days ago and I got confirmed that Model S for Europe will come with 3-phase charger.

Frank Herfjord | 20 décembre 2012

Regarding the competition, the S performance at €95 900 is priced about €7000 lower than BMW M5 or Mercedes E63 AMG which means it should be able to compete.

But the 60kw version is €74.100 which would get you 100hp more in a BMW.

ronlitvak | 20 décembre 2012

Interesting. European taxes are buried in the purchase price. US taxes are unbundled. Could have a great cross-Atlantic political debate over which is more insidious: burying the tax in the price, or giving consumers prices stripped of the taxes.

For those in Europe, our U.S. taxing is even more complicated than you might imagine: I just got my car, and the Colorado sales tax was 4.0%. However, when I go to get my plates, I'll be paying another tax bill (which recurs annually, sliding down as the car depreciates). I don't recall how much, but I would guess it's another 3% - each year.

Jackie425 | 20 décembre 2012

ronlitvak: Unfortunately we normally have to pay an annual tax bill too. And in the Netherlands they add an extra tax to cars before the VAT plus if its a company car they tax you on the value of that too. Luckly for the Dutch EVs currently pay zero annual tax, zero extra car tax and zero for the company car. However these are exemptions which only apply for the short term.

Jolinar | 20 décembre 2012

Jacques,
I know that for many months (since Elons tweet), but it's not 3-phase as 3-phase...
The simplest solution is use 3-phase socket but power the car only from between-phase voltage which is easier to implement (but you won't get 20kW from 3x32A socket), you don't need to change plug, US plug with 2 high power pins is fine...
Or there is more complicated solution where you are using all 3 phases and US plug may not be enough... For example Mennekes has 5 pins (3 phases + neutral + earth).
Well, this is wrong topic to discuss charging, I just expected to see more information about it before or simultaneously with price reveal.

ddruz | 20 décembre 2012

@Jolinar - George B's post on 3-phase charging yesterday on TMC:

"We don't view 3-phase charging as a pricing issue. However, just to clarify, European Model S will have the ability to 3-phase charge.

GeorgeB"

C Bretaud | 20 décembre 2012

Volker, in France, we pay VAT on business cars. Only what we call "trucks" are sold without VAT and annual CO2 taxes. To be "truck", it must have only two seat (driver + passenger) and a trunk in place of the rear seats.

Ronlitvak, it's similar in Europe, except that all prices include VAT of the country where you are, and each country have its own level for VAT from 15% to 25%.
We add tax bill each year 1) for cars that produce more than 190 g co2 /km for people and 2) for business cars in function of co2 produced by the car. Example = 5300 euros/year for a jeep gd cherokee pentastar (246 g co2/km) and 0 euro for Tesla Model S

Vall | 20 décembre 2012

Don't see where is the news. BMW 550i starts at $63,000 on the US website, the same starts at 71,500 eur in germany. Which is $94,900 US. A difference of $31000. That is about 30%. And realistically, also in the US the 5 series is cheaper than any equivalent model S (in terms of horsepower). However, the closest competitors to the S are cars like Audi A7, BMW 6 4-door coupe, and Mercedes CLS. They are based on the conventional sedans, but command a hefty price premium, for style and whatnot. The 650i, which obiously has the same engine as the 550i, starts at $86,000 in the US, more than $20 000 over the 550i. Could be it has more options standard. But that is a substantial difference. In germany the 640i with 235kW motor starts at 79,000 Euro, much closer to the 60kW model S, and the 650i starts at 93,000 Euro with 330kW engine. So this has been going on forever, cars in the US are cheaper, even cars that are made in germany and exported to the US, due to VAT, import taxes, shipping, or just the market expectations. It would be foolish to think that tesla will be the first to reverse this trend, when they are still nt out of the woods yet and their primary goal is to survive long enough to make the cheaper models, not to make model S affordable to everyone tomorrow. And even the more affordable model will be a 3series car, which means "relatively affordable".

Jolinar | 20 décembre 2012

ddruz,
you don't understand... I know that charging from 3-phase socket is possible, but nobody from Tesla confirmed that it will be 20kW (from 3x32A is 22kW possible), If I take only 2 phases from 3-phase socket it is not true support.

Volker.Berlin | 20 décembre 2012

Vall, of course that makes a lot of sense. Just cut us Europeans some slack for a few days. We're suffering from sticker shock. Do you remember a year ago, when American prices were announced? The forums were even busier than today, and there was a lot of disappointed clamoring going on. Reality bit you then, it's biting us today.

Vall | 20 décembre 2012

@Volker

I wish it would be cheaper as well, don't get me wrong, but i expected something like that, so not that shocked. And to clear the confusion, I live in Germany, not a German though.

gregv64 | 20 décembre 2012

Yeah, you can still get sticker shock in the US as well, though. My configuration for a non-performance 85 shows on the MyTesla page as being $77000, but in reality I'm going to be writing Tesla a check for more like $94000 when it arrives (and that's before the price increase). If they don't change the rules next year I'll eventually reduce my taxes by $7500, but that's really different than actually subtracting it from the price. The prices you see on the US site are really misleading, so I was definitely expecting shock when they showed up in Europe, even though Tesla did exactly what they said they were going to (and basically the same as the Canadian pricing, which also brought shock when announced for the same reason).

archibaldcrane | 20 décembre 2012

"71000€ for the 60KW/h" ...um, you realize that a 60kw/h in the US is $75000 after taxes, before federal and state EV incentives right?

Considering the delivery across a huge ocean and such, I think you're getting off OK over there - plus remember how much more expensive your gasoline costs, way bigger savings compared to electricity than what we save here in the states.

Frank Herfjord | 20 décembre 2012

You're right Vall and tbh I don't actually know what I'm talking about since I am in Norway and not in Germany. Here, the 60kwh costs 450'000 NOK and the 550i is 1'300'000 NOK.

So we really don't have much to complain about!

archibaldcrane | 20 décembre 2012

Frank - that Model S vs. 550i price comparison is insane. How is every decently well-to-do Norwegian not already on the Model S reservation list? Does any other "luxury" car, even a base model 328i or C250 come close in price there?

Frank Herfjord | 20 décembre 2012

Funny you should say that because my most recent facebook status was a suggestion to invent a new name for 5 series or E series customers in Norway: IDIOTS.

The 520d has a similar price to the 60kwh. Because in Norway, taxes are based on co2 emissions, weight and horsepower. The M5 has a lot of that, so the price is 1'800'000 compared to the Model S p 600'000.

So yeah there's a good reason Norway is the #2 market for Tesla after the US even though only 5 million people live here. There's 800 reservations so far which is a huge number with so few citizens.

archibaldcrane | 20 décembre 2012

Ah ok, well the 520d is actually a decent competitor, wouldn't want Tesla to take 100% of the luxury car sales lol.

Kinda surprising you guys are so hard on co2 emissions and giving huge EV breaks, considering that you're a big time oil exporter right?

Although I guess the US produces a ton of oil too.

Frank Herfjord | 20 décembre 2012

What are we supposed to do, stop pumping the stuff up from the sea? We like money... But I guess we need to clear our conscience so we have reasonably environmentally conscientious politicians.

Jackie425 | 20 décembre 2012

Unless I am mistaken oil is not only used to fuel cars, for example, they run on tyres, then there is plastic, shall I go on ?

Anyway the issue here is that we seem to have the new US pricing and options translated into EU pricing and options while many of us registered to purchase when the old US pricing and options were available.

In addition we need technical information from Tesla on what they mean by supporting 3-phase.

archibaldcrane | 20 décembre 2012

I think the main issue is that some non-US people looked at the US, post-incentive, pre-tax price and thought for some reason that would be comparable to the EU post-tax price.

And yeah, 3-phase charging.

Jolinar | 20 décembre 2012

archibaldcrane +1
of course if somebody compare US post-incentive, pre-tax price with EU post-tax post-import-duty pre-incentive price we can see 40% difference as Whity Whiteman suggested, though actually it's much lower increase.
If it's true that import duty on cars is 10% (as Norbert.Vienna stated), than Tesla managed to make good price for EU.

Signature performance in US before VAT is $107,900 = 97900+7500+2500 (82004€) price increase included, tax credid excluded

Signature performance in EU before VAT is $109,748 (83409€ = 91750/1.1) price increase included, import duty (10%) excluded

That means Tesla increased price only by $1848 (1405€) as transport and other business expenses, which seems quite impressive.
Other expenses can't be affected by Tesla :(

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