Slightly disappointing result but in line with what was being predicted.
I would say...horribly disappointing, and if confirmed cause for many of us who did place the deposit for Ludicrous upgrade to our P85D to "head for the exits."
But we need several more measurements on similar tracks with both cars at the same time.
Max battery power readied?
Yikes. That's not good. I really hope they make it worth the $7500 upgrade I've deposited.
Worth the 7,500 upgrade? I hope it's worth the 138,000 I put down on my P90D...
Was Max Battery was in Ready?
Does the type of tires matter? (19" A/S vs 21" Summer)
And I noticed quite large variations between the multiple runs, was it because of battery heat-soak? Does the P85D Insane also have that much variation when doing successive runs?
The car performance seems to degrade over time, so must be either heat-soak or SOC?
1 11:19am 11.38
2 11:50am 11.43
3 12:12pm 11.59
4 12:42pm 11:51
5 1:00pm 11:55
6 1:18pm 11:65
7 1:42pm 11:68
I am not an expert in drag racing but noticed that run #6 has a reaction time of .031 whereas run #1 is .373
If run #1 had a reaction time of .031 would it have made the 1/4 time of 11.04?
reaction time does not factor in to the 1/4 mile time....
Reaction time makes no difference.
60ft time on the other hand , makes a significant difference.
I've had a chance to look a little more closely at the results and have drawn some of my own conclusions taking into account the best P85D results we've seen to date.
These first two P85D results below, tell me something, at least to this point. But because we're looking at different days/different tracks, that has to be taken into account.
At the very least though, that side by side video with the one car, the P90D getting what appeared to be at least a one second jump on the P85D, can now be taken for what it's worth.
The drag strip comparisons, are the bes comparisons. Even though we're looking at results from two different tracks.
Anyway, the best P85D results we've seen thus far, came from different tracks, several hundred miles apart.
There is just over 0.2 seconds worth of difference between the best P85D result we've seen thus far and that's with a worse 60ft time for the P85D. Also there is no significant difference in trap speed. Indeed the P85D got a faster trap speed.
Secondly, with 1/8 mile splits like it's showing, as well as 60ft times like that, the P90D, has no chance of making it into the 10s.
The tale of the tape indicates that the P90D currently, is not very much quicker, nor very much faster to 1/8 mile than the current P85D.
Top end speed, is also not much different. At least to a distance of a quarter mile.
I expected 11.1-11.2 seconds in the quarter for P85D Ludicrous. And originally expected about 11 flat for P90D Ludicrous with a trap speed in the low 120s for the P90D Ludicrous. P90D is currently nowhere close to that kind of a trap speed.
With us hearing now that the P85D Ludicrous upgrade wil not allow a match of these P90D Ludicrous numbers, that's telling to me.
Determining the value of something is of course up to the beholder, but, at this point, and until improvement is seen, this FOR ME, would certainly not be worth a 13k up charge over a P85D, and not worth a 7500.00 up charge for a current P85D.
I was waiting until fiks and friends did their own runs but am loosing hope. If fiks is willing to accept these results and says they are confirmed by his Vbox testing, it is all but a done deal.
There is no current variant of the PDL that is a ten second car and, unlike the hp brew ha ha, this is a problem.
It's definitely a problem if those who are in possession of P90D Ludicrous cars, aren't able to get anywhere near 10.9 in the quarter.
Maybe an update for the 90kWh battery equipped cars will allow the 10.9.
I hope so.
Guess I can now stop begging my wife for the upgrade.
Tesla needs better communication, if there's a further performance software update!
I'm thinking that P90D Ludicrous will eventually get an OTA update to unleash it's full potential.
However the question then becomes "will P85D Ludicrous get the same type OTA update to improve it's performance potential.
Tesla seems to be laying the groundwork for such a scenario, by saying that the upgrade to Ludicrous for the P85D won't be an exact performance match.
But in the P85D vs P90D video P90DL seemed to be pulling further away even at high speeds. Maybe a rematch between P85D and P90DL.
If the times are as reported in this article I'll probably cancel my order, but if 7.0 comes out and the times are leaning more towards musks original estimes then I'll keep the order. Hopefully 7.0 is out before then. I'm fairly sure tesla will be willing to give back your $500 given the drastic changes in times.
@Everybody so far....YIKES!
I have had my P85D at the local Sacramento Raceway drag strip TWICE, once before the 3.1 sec 0-60 mph upgrade and once much after and between those two times around Sacramento also ran at Bandimere in Denver after the 3.1 sec. upgrade. I am on the 19 inch all-season tires, and my times have been ROCK steady getting better after the upgrade and rock steady taking 3-5 runs at each drag strip. My best run usually comes in my second or 3rd effort on the day and so far absolute best is
and on a later run that day my best trap speed was 115.24 mph
I DO have a very early deposit for the Ludicrous Upgrade, but IF this does NOT get me into the high 10's in the quarter then .....I am SAVING MY MONEY.
OF course we need more data and EXACTLY comparable testing conditions. Further as noted, there might be still some software tweaks that need to be done to MAX performance of the full "ludicrous power?"
But there seems to be some SERIOUS explaining for Tesla Techs to start sharing with us......
what he said
@Ankit Mishra | OCTOBER 3, 2015 NEW
"But in the P85D vs P90D video P90DL seemed to be pulling further away even at high speeds. Maybe a rematch between P85D and P90DL."
That video was of limited value because the P90D got such a jump on the P85D.
Looking at the results thus far, of best track times, I'm thinking that the P90D with Ludicrous, would put about 2 car lengths on a P85D in the quarter. Possibly even slightly less.
That makes it perhaps not quite what many in drag racing circles refer to as "a driver's race" but very close to it, since if one cuts a better light in the P85D, the P85D has at least a chance against a P90D with Ludicrous.
The only variables here I can think of are weather, traction, weight, especially wheel and tire weight, and driver technique.
Weather, well I don't know how much of a role it would play with these cars and quarter mile times. State of charge seems to be about equal as well.
Traction, well, the 60s are pretty even, but depending upon the tracks, and their preparation, VHT may be applied at a distance further down the track at one venue vs the other, but we don't know. But that could make a difference. At least "some" difference.
Driver "error" or technique, is probably not much of a factor here as no shifting is required, and no burnout either. The only thing the driver need do is minimize his steering input, i.e. keep his wheels straight, and stomp the accelerator pedal.
Wheel and tire weight, and hence rotating mass. It would be interesting to compare various wheel and tire setups and their weight. This could have an impact as well. What wheels and rubber were the P90D Ludicrous on?
Either way, and even with all of the above taken into account, I'm not seeing 4 tenths worth of improvement if all were dialed in at the maximum physically and humanly possible and currently available.
I'm sorry. I left this tidbit out of my above post.
Since it seems that only about 2 car lengths can be expected in the quarter for a P90D with Ludicrous vs a P85D, and no appreciable difference in the P85D's, 115+mph trap speed, perhaps the biggest question to be asked and answered to date is; "Is a P90D with Ludicrous, worth the $10K up charge over a "plain" P90D without it???????
My question was that P90DL seemed to be pulling away even at the higher speeds. This contradicts the observation in this thread that P90DL is similar to P85D at higher speeds. Didn't anyone felt the same that distance between the cars was increasing in that video till the brake lights lit up on P90DL?
First world problems.
Ankit Mishra | OCTOBER 3, 2015 NEW
"My question was that P90DL seemed to be pulling away even at the higher speeds. This contradicts the observation in this thread that P90DL is similar to P85D at higher speeds. Didn't anyone felt the same that distance between the cars was increasing in that video till the brake lights lit up on P90DL?"
When that video first came out, I mentioned that to my eye, it seemed like the distance between the two remained fairly constant. See my post in the thread below.
It makes sense to me in that the P90D got what appears to be about a 1 second jump, and then with it's capability of jumping out to about a 2 car length lead, the distance increased up to a point, where it then remained fairly constant.
Bear in mind that these cars only have at best, a 155mph top speed, and at the quarter mile, they're only about 39-40 mph shy of that top speed capability. So I wouldn't expect a lot more acceleration capability after that seen much beyond somewhere between a quarter and a half mile.
Seems like a lot of premature ejaculations based on one event. I can understand the angst though over committing to the buy before the end product is clear.
Worst case they're out 500 bucks. That's even if Tesla refuses to refund their money in light of the clearly changed verbiage in the original description of the upgrade and where the deposits were initially taken.
Could have been a whole lot worse though. Think of those who ejaculated $13K bucks for this much difference.
-Tesla Racing Channel Here.
I've read nost of what has been posted and we will have our P85D upgraded soon enough hopefully and will get some VERY thorough results.
We are the P85D with the fastest pass so far, and this was with the 6.1 update when the car was first released. Noticing the 60' times are a tenth of a second slower than update 6.2 60' times and the 1/4 mile pass doesn't see a significant increasing result from that because it kills it off the line so bad we assume and generates a lot of heat from launches.
Keep in mind when we have done a sport run it gets an EVEN BETTER mph speed in the 1/8th mile compared to when using insane mode.
Assuming constant and equal acceleration for both cars (I know not true but just to keep it simple) wouldn't the car that got a jump keep pulling away until top speed is reached?
Say A already reached 10 mph when B starts and let's assume acceleration is constant at 20 mph/sec then one second after B starts it is at 20 mph whereas A is at 30 mph, A is still pulling away from B...
In reference to the dragtimes video. I agree the p90d was pulling away little bit by little bit. But because dragtimes made sure the 90 driver took off first there isn't too much to judge.
If the p90d is supposed to run 10.9s there should've been a lot more distance between the two. If you were to do a 35 or so mph test with both cars at good performing milage and temperature there should be more to tell of how good it pulls awwy because neither car will have heated up the motors/ inverters like they would after a launch.
I say these drivers don't know what they're doing. Unlike most cars there is A LOT of factors that factor into a good 1/4 mile pass WITH these electric cars.
-Tesla Racing Channel
What happens when A and B reach about 94mph, which they both do in about 7.2-7.3 seconds of full effort (I won't say wide open throttle) , which they both seems to hit at about 7.4 seconds.
I get the above figures from the best 1/8 mile splits for both cars.
So at about 7 seconds of that video, very little was going on to separate the two cars much further than what was there already.
But more importantly, at 1/4 mile, neither car is traveling much faster than the other when it hits that mark.
Looked at another way, consider a hypothetical bracket race between these two cars. The P85D would ask for a 2 tenths advantage.
If the P90D managed to edge it out at the finish line, then when it did, it would not be traveling much, if any faster than the P85D was. They'd both be traveling at about 115-116mph through the traps and the P90D would hardly be significantly pulling the P85D at that point, and probably not much up unto v max of 155moh was eventually reached.
If you consider two cars on abcircle, one at the 6:00 position on the circle, the other at 12:00 and the one at 12:00 fails to maintain whatever acceleration advantage it had over the car at the 6:00 position as both cars travel the circle, then the car which was at the 6:00 position will no longer stay exactly at the 6:00 position from the car which was at the 12:00 position.
" which they both seems to hit at about 7.4 seconds." should not have been included in my post. moh should have been mph and circle instead of "abcircle"
I am also disappointed as I have my deposit placed. What I don't understand is when I test drove the P90DL it seemed quicker from 30 mph up and my friendly salesman was certainly impressed with the 90 as he has given many test drives with both.
Much confusion about the P85D vs P90DL video that math can clear up. I'll try to do it without math. If you had two identical cars at a dragstrip, and one car got a 1 second jump over the other car, the distance separating the cars will increase as they both move down the track. This is because the time (1s) that separates them remains constant. Example; 1 second at 30mph is half the distance of that 1s at 60mph.
Watching the video, the P90DL increases its separation, but it did have a jump. So the video is inconclusive, and consistent with what the dragstrip slips seem to indicate.
I may go ahead with my upgrade anyway, since I get inconel contactors and fuse and SW upgrade, and will get any OTAs relative to Ludicrous cars in the future which may remedy the 1/4 mile time. Have over 20k miles on my PD and have never been to service; need new tires and want LTE upgrade anyway.
Also, bear in mind in my bracket racing example, the cars only have a best case scenario of 155mph maximum speed and at the quarter they're already at approx 116 mph, so there is just 39 mph to go before they stop speeding up.
It could take a good while and some significantly additional distance before 155mph is reached.
The difference in time and distance as to when that happens, is key for both cars and will give you a good idea of their differences.
However this much we know. At 1/4 mile of distance, neither has that great of an advantage over the other in terms of speed.
@cephellow | OCTOBER 3, 2015
"Much confusion about the P85D vs P90DL video that math can clear up. I'll try to do it without math. If you had two identical cars at a dragstrip, and one car got a 1 second jump over the other car, the distance separating the cars will increase as they both move down the track. This is because the time (1s) that separates them remains constant. Example; 1 second at 30mph is half the distance of that 1s at 60mph."
Watching the video, the P90DL increases its separation, but it did have a jump. So the video is inconclusive, and consistent with what the dragstrip slips seem to indicate.
I may go ahead with my upgrade anyway, since I get inconel contactors and fuse and SW upgrade, and will get any OTAs relative to Ludicrous cars in the future which may remedy the 1/4 mile time. Have over 20k miles on my PD and have never been to service; need new tires and want LTE upgrade anyway."
I'd be real cautious here cephellow, if you're thinking that you will " get any OTAs relative to Ludicrous cars in the future which may remedy the 1/4 mile time."
There is nothing in stone which says that they have to give you whatever OTA upgrade that they give to P90D Ludicrous owners.
Plus they have already laid the groundwork by saying in their latest rendition of the description for this upgrade, as it differs from the original announcement, of the P85D Ludicrous upgrade "(The retrofit will not be an exact equivalent performance spec as a new P90D.)"
@heartbeat | OCTOBER 3, 2015
"I am also disappointed as I have my deposit placed. What I don't understand is when I test drove the P90DL it seemed quicker from 30 mph up and my friendly salesman was certainly impressed with the 90 as he has given many test drives with both."
Thats why it was so important to get actual on track results. To literally see what the car is doing, to get a snapshot of what it is doing at various points.
Those points being 60 feet, 1/8 mile, 1000 ft if available, and 1/4 mile.
So now you know, that at about 660ft, which would have it running at about 94mph, it's not very much quicker or faster than a P85D. You also know that at a quarter mile, the difference is not that great either.
Of course all of this is subject to change, but as it stands right now, it is what it is. But mostly, it went a long way toward showing the "error" in that video.
Aside from disappointment, what is the model of the rival car? Right lane, #533, 1/4 mile in only 9.831? What the hell is that? Anyone knows?
I was wondering the same thing. Must be a heavily modded performance car.
Im aware that such an OTA may never come, but I'm not going to get all in a knot if it doesn't. I'm looking for plaid in a new roadster or coupe a few years down the road anyway. Best part about these Ludicrous dialogues is that Tesla is on the front end of the technology curve while ICE is on the back of the curve, meaning more good things are coming. My 8K just makes this possibility become more probable...
@cephellow | OCTOBER 3, 2015
Im aware that such an OTA may never come, but I'm not going to get all in a knot if it doesn't. I'm looking for plaid in a new roadster or coupe a few years down the road anyway. Best part about these Ludicrous dialogues is that Tesla is on the front end of the technology curve while ICE is on the back of the curve, meaning more good things are coming. My 8K just makes this possibility become more probable..."
Best of luck cephellow.
That's the best description I have seen to date.
Nice coining of the phrase.
@inconel, you are correct, if one of 2 cars with constant indentical acceleration gets a head start, it will stay at a constant +Xmph over the other car. If one car is always moving at Xmph more, it will continuously be pulling away from the other car at exactly Xmph. Another way to put it, for two cars to not pulling away from each other, they have to driving at the exact same speed.
So if in the video the P90DL stops pulling away from the P85D after having a head start, that would mean P85D caught up to P90DL speed (so it accelerated faster?). To my eye, P90D was pulling away throughout the race, which I would expect even if both were P85D's and one got a head start.
+1 George with SacEV
Except I want more than just an explanation, I want definitive specs, so I can decide whether I want to pay $8K or get my $500 back. So far I put the deposit down based on the specs available from Elon's announcement. If I chose to get the upgrade and if the specs are not met, I want my money back.
To those who hang their hope on a future OTA, I was that naive once too, hoping the 691hp will be unlocked with an OTA. That bubble was burst once Ludicrous was announced and fuse limits were exposed, showing that the battery cannot deliver enough power without blowing a fuse. So I already spent $20K on a belief in an OTA which will never come, not spending another $8K hoping for another one.
@whitex | OCTOBER 3, 2015 NEW
"....So if in the video the P90DL stops pulling away from the P85D after having a head start, that would mean P85D caught up to P90DL speed (so it accelerated faster?)....."
That's what I tend to believe happened. Or if it didn't catch completely up to the P90DL's speed, then it came close to it.
The fact that they are so close in performance capability, trap speed at both the 1/8 mile and the quarter mile are very similar, and that much has been shown now in the drag strip passes and the splits, made it look, at least to me, that the one car was hardly pulling away from the other.
At any rate though, we now know that as it stands, they both cover the quarter mile, and go through the traps at about the same speed in mph. However the P90D Ludicrous does it a little over 2 tenths of a second quicker.
Another very interesting point can be seen when considering the idea of the P90D "pulling away" can be seen in the splits seen in the best P90D Ludicrous time slip, ... and the best available P85D Insane time slip. The differences in the splits can be seen at the 660ft mark, the 1000 ft mark and the 1320 ft mark and conclusions drawn.
The results are taken from the drag times listings
Listing the best P90D Ludicrous times in those splits first, and the best P85D times at the same points, it can be seen that at the 660 ft mark, the difference is 7.193sec vs 7.398, a difference of .205 seconds.
340 feet later, and at 1000 feet, the difference is 9.449sec vs 9.665, for a difference of .216 seconds.
At 1320 ft point, the difference is 11.384 vs 11.596 for a difference of .212 seconds.
This should give one an idea of just how effective, or not, a P90D with Ludicrous is at "pulling away from" a P85D over a quarter mile distance if the P90D does not have a nearly 1 second head start.
Not very. At those speeds, you're looking at about a 2 car length distance at best. If a freeze from photo taken, you would be able to fit about one car between the lead car and the trailing car.
It's slightly quicker, in the quarter mile, but to this point, does not seem to be any faster in the quarter mile.
@quesder - the class on the ticket said MC for #533, so my guess is it was a motorcycle. I couldn't find anything on the web page that would prove it, though.
Good guess since it dominated the 1/8M too.
"from" should be "frame.
My point though, is that at 660ft the gap is just about 2 tenths. At 1000 ft, the gap does not grow, but it stays at 2 tenths, and finally at 1320ft the gap still has not grown, it remains 2 tenths at the end of the race. And there is not much difference in trap speeds at those same points either.
>>> ... and my friendly salesman was certainly impressed with the 90 as he has given many test drives with both.
It's his job to be impressed by the car we wants to sell.
I wouldn't believe the salespeople. They sold many on 700 HP and $7 charges.