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Dual motor vs performance - software or hardware?

Dual motor vs performance - software or hardware?

Sorry if this has been asked but I can’t find an answer. I placed an order last week for a dual motor m3 - for a December delivery. My partner at work already has a performance m3 so I’m wondering if the motors in the cars are actually different or is this something that if for some reason I felt I needed to upgrade later I could to the performance “unlock”. I get I can’t easily add the performance brakes, suspension and so on, but I live in a cold weather state with crappy roads I wouldn’t want that stuff anyway.

I really don’t think I need a performance version as the Dual is already as fast as the Bmw m3 it will replace I’m just wondering if I have the option later if I potentially wanted it

Magic 8 Ball | 14 octobre 2018

Definitive answer is not known.
Musk did make special mention of the inverters in the P versions and he also mentioned that the motors in P versions undergo additional manufacturing processes to select them from the production motors.

kyle | 14 octobre 2018

Seems to me making them all the same is the easiest in manufacturing which is why I asked. I really don’t think i need the added performance but it would be nice if it were an option, I could see especially as a resale option, not that Tesla cares about that, but it’s a upsell opportunity to unlock this stuff after the initial sale.

Magic 8 Ball | 14 octobre 2018

When asked Musk mentioned the two specific hardware items I mentioned in my above reply. It may be that economies of scale and improved manufacturing processes can make all hardware the same but I doubt Musk would have mentioned inverters and selection process if that was all there was to it.

disapr | 15 octobre 2018

There is one part number for the rear drive unit and one part number for the front drive unit on all Model 3. This is from Tesla parts department. AWD and P3D- are identical except for software. It is unknown what happens with the P3D+ cars but I'll say there is something different between P3D- and P3D+ until Tesla says that all 'Performance' cars get track mode or list Track Mode in the marketing material for the Performance Upgrade option.

Magic 8 Ball | 15 octobre 2018

"Binned" parts usually do have the same part number as stock parts, no surprise there. That does not make the binned parts the same as the stock parts tho'.

aperfectecho | 15 octobre 2018

Nobody knows for sure (at least outside of Tesla) but from what info I've gathered, seems the P3D is the same mechanically as the AWD, and the P3D+ has the addition of larger brake calipers, lowered suspension, larger rims, so hard to say if that has any additional physical change.
I agree-would be nice to be able to software upgrade to a P3D from the AWD, but who knows if that will be an option?

JAD | 15 octobre 2018

@disapr, I can assure you that the P3D- brakes are not up to track use even with everything else being equal. That alone is a good reason not to give track mode to the P3D-. Brakes are an absolute requirement for track use. Also, don't discount the value of binning motors and choosing the best of the best. There really is a big difference in identical parts....

That said, I am pretty sure there are additional components not yet mentioned that are different between P's and non-P's. Guessing the Ludicrous mode promised will highlight those differences if/when it is released. Musk may be late on his promises quite often, but he usually does come through and has stated the 3 will have a Ludicrous option.

Of course, those are all just my guesses, the absolute facts are not yet known.

quatroch | 15 octobre 2018

Last week I took delivery of an AWD non-Performance Model 3. But then I noticed I have the red underline in the app and on the car screen. And I have the option of "sport" for acceleration, which I understand is consistent with Performance. The car does not have any of the visible P+ features and has normal aero wheels.

I definitely ordered and paid for a regular AWD, but now I don't know what I have.

It is WAY faster than the RWD Model 3 that I traded in to get it. I know a non-P will be faster than RWD but this WAY faster off the line.

My best guess is that performance is solely software and that software was loaded on my car.

sheldon.mike1010 | 15 octobre 2018

#quatroch
You are one lucky guy is all I can say.

drhelmutroth | 16 octobre 2018

Had my P3D- delivery appointment today. No red underline on the car screen. Found window sticker in the trunk with matching VIN saying it is an AWD that costs 58.2k. I was asked to pay 66.5k for Performance. After an hour of confusion I was told that all that is needed is an over-the-air update. I am not a happy camper.

007bond | 16 octobre 2018

If this is true then I don't understand why Tesla does not offer this as an upgrade. Just like with the autopilot there should be and option to buy performance. Again if there is really no HW diff and all that is needed is option enabled that is....unless there is a HW diff.

minervo.florida | 16 octobre 2018

Software guys, all the motors are almost exactly the same.

How do you think he will offer P cars the Lud mod, it will be software, cost nothing, instant upgrade and all profit. Just unlock it. Tesla has done this countless times.

ODWms | 16 octobre 2018

I wonder, from a legal standpoint, whether the owner owns that software, even though he paid for non-P. Can Tesla just take it back OTA, and would the customer have a leg to stand on if he wanted to keep it?

Obviously, this is software, but if it were a hardware item the customer received “free” at delivery, they couldn’t take it off his car at the next service. Interesting.

Magic 8 Ball | 16 octobre 2018

"If this is true.........."

Of course it is true, everything on an internet rumor mill is ; ).

LT4BlueBird | 16 octobre 2018

There have been at least 5 posts over the past month of people stating they received a P or Non P that was suppose to be one or the other and was told it would be changed via a software change, I had a sales manager of Tesla tell me to my face that its a software difference. Now either a lot of people are lying or it is a binning process to hand pick P motors but ultimately just a software unlock to make everything equal which makes sense and totally goes with what tesla has done in the past with previous models. I have not heard or seen anyone state they where told by anyone at tesla for certain that there is a hardware difference. I do remember seeing one post about someone buying a P and receiving a AWD and the service tech not recommending to change software and requesting a new car but still doesn't support physical difference, just different motor sorting process which does matter as has be stated in past.

Magic 8 Ball | 16 octobre 2018

I do not believe it is a lying or not lying ultimatum.
It is all hearsay without any internal documentation describing the specific differences.
If someone makes a mistake in telling you what they thought they heard is it a lie?

Let's call it myth, for now, and not lying.

LT4BlueBird | 16 octobre 2018

Ok, but if you can turn a AWD to P3D- via a software change is it not then a true statement?

gballant4570 | 16 octobre 2018

Whether or not a software change "unlocks" Performance, the high testing motors with additional burn-in are binned for Performance cars. The inverters used for Performance will tolerate a higher duty and heat load.
"Unlocking" Performance on a non P AWD would certainly void the warranty, and increase your risk of finding out what that voided warranty can do to you.

Of course if Elon was just blowing smoke, perhaps the risk level isn't as high.....go for it if you can.....

LT4BlueBird | 16 octobre 2018

Also, I get it. I understand the concern and reason why this would upset Performance owners however. Lets say prior to Tesla at some point confirming officially that it is a software unlock and that the performance rear motors where binned to find the best of the best for durability (which I believe to be true) (although the RWD which put out the same rated amount of power where never confirmed as being binned or not being which is weird), isn't the free supercharging for life a worthy thing to have? and isn't also worth something to have had a best of the best hand picked motor for durability ?, those would mean something to me and carry value.

Magic 8 Ball | 16 octobre 2018

Yes, there have way too many "IF" threads on this.
There is no definitive answer documented from TESLA.
People make mistakes.

LT4BlueBird | 16 octobre 2018

@gballant, I never saw a direct quote from Elon or Tesla stating they used different inverters. Not saying it doesn't exist but can I see a link ?. I saw the binning process and burn in quotes from Elon but not that they used different inverters.

Magic 8 Ball | 16 octobre 2018

Here is Elon's tweet concerning Silicon Carbide inverters for both P versions.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/998015873167208448?lang=en

LT4BlueBird | 16 octobre 2018

OK, so the way that is worded does lean towards a physical difference. Which would make me a little nervous accepting just a software unlock. Thanks.

Polen | 16 octobre 2018

IF you were able to buy performance option, how would you get insurance to increase the car value by $10,000. Sounds pretty IFFY.

LT4BlueBird | 16 octobre 2018

Ok, maybe I am reaching here but I just reread it and this is where the tweet starts.

"
Working on Model 3 dual motor all-wheel drive & performance versions. Driving feel is amazing. Aiming to release config late tonight."

then he is asked:
Elon, I suppose this will be answered one way or another eventually, but many in the Tesla community are curious of what the physical setup of Performance in particular is, i.e. is it one smaller PM motor & one larger PM, or a large induction motor in the rear and a PM in front?"

and he responds

"AC induction front & switched reluctance, partial permanent magnet rear. Silicon Carbide inverters in both. Performance drive units are lot sorted for highest sigma output & get double the burn-in.'

Now he states silicon carbide in "both" but then specifically states Performance for sorting and double burn in. Am I reading that wrong? or stretching?
"

AMDPower | 16 octobre 2018

Magic8Ball that is NOT what he s said! Read that quote in its full context. ALL Model 3 AWD get silicon carbide inverters! There is NO physical difference between O and Non-P.

AMDPower | 16 octobre 2018

P and Non P. Stupid mobile.

AMDPower | 16 octobre 2018

lt4bluebird Good job. Yes they don't have time to be changing up parts like that. I'm 100% sure it's software. Might be "lot sorted" but my guess is yields are good enough now that it is a non-issue.

Magic 8 Ball | 16 octobre 2018

While I agree there could be some ambiguity the context was a specific reply to an individual specifically asking about P versions.Prior to the question Elon was talking about non-P. Do not conflate the two separate communications. I think I have the context correct.

That is interesting information that All M3's AWD get SC inverters. Can you link to the document that supports that?

Polen | 16 octobre 2018

Hopefully over time we'll just see small increases in performance as was done with Model S.

Magic 8 Ball | 16 octobre 2018

BTW it could very well be that they started binning and found out all the motors meet the P requirements anyway so binning is no longer needed and it is only software but, as I have been saying all along, there is no definitive documented answer from TESLA on this.

Magic 8 Ball | 16 octobre 2018

Thanks then the only difference may be the binned motors. If they found or made all motors to meet P requirements anyway then it would be only software. But as I said above there is no definitive documented answer from TESLA if, at this point, it is software only.

Cabassi | 16 octobre 2018

The RWDs have SC inverters too.

LT4BlueBird | 16 octobre 2018

I think its not clear either way at this point exactly what the differences are but my main question I have been wondering on a what if level is, how would you feel as a performance owner if say 1 year or 2 years down the road Tesla states AWD version for lets say hypothetical purposes offers up a performance upgrade software unlock for 5K, as original performance owners would you feel that you where robbed?, like in the past that happened with the earlier S owners who felt like they overpaid when the lower version got offered the upgrade packages to the larger battery unlock.

ODWms | 16 octobre 2018

I’d feel a way about it, considering I had to pay significantly more. The free supercharging for life is a nice perk though. And I’ve gotta say, I’m loving the extras that came with the performance package also. Probably best $5000 (in my case $3500) toucan spend on a model 3, in my humble estimation. They’re not getting that with an OTA unlock.

ODWms | 16 octobre 2018

*you can...”

LT4BlueBird | 16 octobre 2018

Right now, there is a 9K difference between the 2 models and there is no free supercharging being offered for performance. So I guess the main question is, is binning and double burn in for durability worth 4K to "original" performance owners hypothetically. I honestly think something like that is. If someone told me for that the motor/motors would last lets say 6 months longer or have less issues for the life of my car on the car in my case that I paid 64K for, I would grab that deal in a heart beat.

drhelmutroth | 16 octobre 2018

My experience does not support any hardware difference between AWD and Performance. The sticker suggests that the car was built in the first 2 weeks of September. The car thus lived the first 4 weeks of its life as an AWD. It would still be an AWD if I didn't notice the missing red line. Then the over-the-air update transformed it into a Performance car. The delivery advisor claimed that the car was manufactured as a Performance version but handicapped with firmware.

ODWms | 16 octobre 2018

I’m interested to see if the 0-60 run would be identical to the advertised time when tested.

Yoss | 16 octobre 2018

I bought 3pd- and it came without performance. After complaining they researched issue and Tesla swore up and down they got ota fix it. My software was updated and speed noticeably increased. Tesla swore up and down both service and sales it’s software difference only but also claimed code was more car specific that some believe. Either way car now drives like p3d- unless they are lying to me it’s software only

borne.by.wind | 16 octobre 2018

I don’t really understand much of the griping in this thread. Those who bought the performance model paid for a one second decrease in 0–60 acceleration, compared to the AWD version. Either your car came with performance and you got the faster acceleration or, if you car didn’t come through with it and you paid for it, Tesla many good on it by sending a software update that gave you that second back. That’s all you paid for. Compare the price you paid for the Tesla 1 second decrease to the price you’d pay to Porsche for a one second decrease, and I think you’ll be happy. Do you really care if there’s any change in the hardware as long as you get your 0-60 in 3.5 seconds or less? Unless you paid for the performance upgrade option (P+) and your car came AWD or P-, I see no reason to gripe. In the case of the performance upgrade option, having a car delivered without it by mistake would be immediately obvious and Tesla would have to make good on it. If you order the AWD version and happen to get the P- version, congratulations. Enjoy it now. If Tesla discovers that you have the P- version, they may change the software back to what you paid for, at any time. For those who aren’t sure if they have AWD or P-, and don’t believe the red underline when you hit the Tesla icon on the screen, go buy a Draggy box, slam on the accelerator and see what your 0-60 times are. With a one second differential, even a friend sitting in the passenger seat with a stopwatch ought to be good enough to discern which version you have.

JAD | 16 octobre 2018

Totally agree borne. Would it be better if the gears are solid gold on the p version? Then it's worth the money even if you never see them and the won't last as long?

ST70 | 16 octobre 2018

@borne.by.wind- well said!

kevin_rf | 17 octobre 2018

And here, I have yet to take my non-P AWD out of chill mode...

Cabassi | 17 octobre 2018

@borne.by.wind I mostly agree, except if I'd paid for Performance and had the software uploaded to a car marked as standard AWD, I'd wonder whether or not my car got those lot-sorted, binned, double-burn-in motors Elon mentioned. And if not, then I'd wonder about something going wrong with the car somewhere down the line.

minervo.florida | 17 octobre 2018

Relax, did you read the article that they are trying to get 1 million miles on the motors, with no maint? Your car will be fine.

This is the new world, all software. 100000000% software.

So you P guys that feel jaded, how about if he offers you Ludicrous for $6k with just a software upgrade, would you feel bad about that.

gballant4570 | 17 octobre 2018

I'm stuck feeling like there must be a hardware difference. However, since the price paid with the software "unlock" is higher, that could make the business case for the same warranty on a product that will get exposed to more severe duty. Binned motors would also support that case.
Unauthorized unlock would still most likely void the drive train warranty I suppose. Remote knowledge of that unauthorized unlock would also be quite likely.
Since I've only had my non P dual motor M3 a bit more than a week, I am still quite amazed by the "locked" performance capabilities....

HighlandPony | 17 octobre 2018

There is a sticker in front of the door that indicates whether the car is built on a performance chassis or not. For those claiming that there was some kind of mixup on delivery or software upgrade, what does the sticker indicate compared to what you ordered? My AWD says: PC30 - No Performance Chassis.

thorvund | 17 octobre 2018

I own a P3D+. If there is a software upgrade that gives non-P3D owners a quicker car, I think that is great. It doesn’t impact me one way or another. I am still happy with my car and the price I paid. I do not need to limit what others can have to justify my decisions.

Besides, if there is a software upgrade for non-P3D owners, who is to say there won’t be for us P3D owners as well?

Don

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