Any chance they’re still working on a AWD to Performance AWD aftermarket package for the 3?
Saw a tweet from the official account a few months back and don’t want to part with my 3 just to upgrade.
Not going to happen. Different motor, different suspension, different brakes, different hubs, I think different shocks and probably some other things. The cost to retrofit a standard AWD to a P3D would be astronomical. Far better off just selling the car and buying a P3D. Plus, Tesla would never do it to begin with. You'd have to do do it all aftermarket, likely finding a donor car to take the parts from. Which then voids your warranty and makes the car almost worthless on the resale market.
It's not just a simple software update.
Motors are not different
Never said it was a simple software update.
The DMs are the same. I assumed suspension would be the biggest pain considering.
Motors for P are "different". They are sorted and tested and go through double burn in. Although they may not be physically different they go through a process to qualify them to be P motors.
AWD: 147 and 188 kW motors
AWD-P: 147 and 211 kW motors
Not true on the motors, they are all the same, testing is marketing stuff. You can bet Tesla makes the motors to very exacting specs. I am sure they are testing motors for specs and quality however they will all be very very close, probably 2 maybe 3 standard deviations.
In the future, Elon will possibly offer a $ increase to add performance 0-60 cars in the future, maybe $5000 per car which will be all profit, if 50,000 cars take it, that is $250 million PROFIT, way to easy for Elon to pass up.
This is just a software change to get the faster car., not counting brake changes, 1/2 inch lower suspension,( most likely with different springs). Shocks are almost for sure the same.
Big goal here is to minimize the amount of different parts for production speed, inventory issues, planning issues, etc.
@minervo Prove it!
This is exactly what Elon did with the 75D's, he made they faster my software changes, this was done less than 1 year ago. Other examples are out there. My P85D was made faster after the connectors were changes to the high temp material from SpaceX, same motors and inverter as before but after new connectors he could dial up more juice.
You will probably see Lude mode on the model 3 in a year or 2 and that will most likely be software changes allowing more juice to flow. This is by far the most cost effective method, build great motors that you can update with software for future gains for more sales.
Building different motors would not be cost effective at all.
If you think Elon is going the ICE route you are not giving him any credit, he is way ahead of us.
So no proof just speculation based on what was done before, got it.
When the P3 gets LUDE mode it will have warm up battery mode to be able to deliver higher juice to get max speed, like P100D and others. Elon is holding back a bunch of stuff.
Yes, really! Did Mr. Musk describe motor differences like lot sorting and double burn in for the S?
What do you think would make the motors different?
Do you think the wire gauge varies, or more windings get more on some over others?
They would design the line to be exact and tweak it until all motors were within spec if for no reason than to avoid sorting and burning in costs.
Do you think he is so stupid to actually no plan ahead?
Watch the motor video for starters.
Elon comments are marketing.
Those electric motors are similar to CPU's, in that they are tested and "binned" for certain characteristics.
Not all would go to Performance versions of the Model 3, only higher binned units. This is not a secret.
I am telling you guys that these motors do not vary much at all, they are easy to make identical.
Tolerances are so good in these days that all parts are super close. They do their testing but the are not sorted, too costly. They have more power in them then we use for sure.
Why would Elon give up the profit opportunity to change AWD cars 4.5, 0-60 to 3.5 for $5000 buy a software change. 100,000 takers is $250 million.
He has it all baked in guys .
And that $250 million cost NOTHING, all pure simple profit.
Either you have sources to cite here & now, or you're a Tesla engineer. Please reveal how you formed your opinion.
Out of the 1000 cars per day for the 3, about 1500 motors per DAY, you want to bin and burn in rather than make them all the same?
That is per day, imagine what a production mess that would create? Has my head spinning asking why go through this mess. These motors are VERY heavy adding to the mess of handling these.
You guys need to give Elon more credit, let's see, make world class rocket engines but do not apply some of that knowledge to making simple electric motors so they are exactly alike?
Have fun, these are the greatest cars on the planet for street use. Happy holidays.
All speculation no facts to support your claim.
Actually, binning is an easy part of the process. When assembly tested, it's immediately identified as Bin A, Bin B, Bin C, Bin Reject.
Simple part of existing process.
I believe that on the motor side the AWD and AWD-P are the same. I base this on the Tesla Parts Catalog. They have the same part numbers the front is ASY,3DUF 1120960-00-E and the rear is ASY,3DUR,AWD,MOSFET-LC
1120990-00-A. They have no part number that is just for the Performance model.
@Zuese50, yep. The parts catalog would make it appear that the AWD long range and Limited Edition Performance are the same hardware.
Parts catalog is not complete. We know the brakes are different and there is only one configuration and part number for calipers and disks in the catalog.
I agree with those who say it won't happen. Even if the Performance parts were the same as AWD, it would undermine the way Tesla sells their model. It would upset the Performance owners who paid significantly more with at least some acknowledgement that the Performance vehicles are different at a base hardware level. Also, looking at the S and X lineups, I'm not aware of any upgrades from non-P to P. There is also the issue of buyers being willing to sell their non-P to buy a whole new vehicle to get the P. If buyers are willing to sell their cars to others, then buy a whole new and more expensive Performance model, Tesla would make less money and sell fewer cars.
The main reason I believe it won't happen is that it undermines the sales model of the Performance editions if anyone can upgrade them later with an add-on package. Although they allow upgrades of software like EAP and FSD, the Performance models don't seem to be a part of that upgrade sales model.
@BLKPM3: No. BASE & SPORT. The brakes in the Standard Performance are bigger. The AWD Long Range and the Limited Edition Performance appear to share the same "BASE" brakes:
FR BRAKE ROTOR, BASE CAST IRON 1044611-00-D
FR BRAKE ROTOR, SPORT BIMATERIAL 1044616-00-D
Here are some keywords for searching the parts catalog: "SPORT" "SPRT" "BASE" "PERF" "MID" "RANGE" "PDM" "AWD"
I just laugh - those that bought AWD hoping for performance at a discount...
The reason they got more "juice" out of the S was strictly to get more differentiation between the S and the 3...
Is it possible?? maybe....Is it likely to happen - unlikely.... my opinion - why? Because they want to continue to sell cars - you want a performance car - you pay for one - they are available. If you bought an AWD - guess what - you can trade it in and pay more (and buy another car)...
At this point - Elon Musk is about making this company successful and some of that requires appeasing stock holders and stupid analysts that care how many cars are sold. Elon isn't going to undermine the selling of cars - let alone performance cars - by allowing a loop hole to upgrade your AWD to Performance (and at $5,000??? that does NOT make it the same cost of a performance car...)
By doing such a thing - you have just said - hey - don't pay more for the performance version...instead....buy the AWD, and then convert it with software for $5,000 more - and you paid less to get same performance...
Yeah...makes sense right???
But I don't run the company - so it is possible...as long as there is no other hardware stuff that we don't know about...Example - while Model S 75D was lowered in 0-60 times with software....my 70D car cannot be lowered at all in its 0-60 times...so while the 75D and 70 D initially were both 5.2 sec....the 75D got to drop to 4.3?? (can't remember exact here) and my 70D stays at 5.2 - and I have asked and it is not possible....why?? probably same reason that AWD Model 3 can't be just software to a Performance - maybe not...who knows....
But go ahead and wish - but to make statements like Elon planned this all along...is funny....
Ok here is the proof that the performance is just a software upgrade. My model 3 had a window sticker that indicates that it is a model 3 @ $35k dual motor All -Wheel drive @ $18k with Enhanced auto pilot @$5k with $1.2k destination total $59.2k. It has my vin number on the window sticker. I found the sticker rolled up and under the passenger seat when I got it home from delivery. I ordered and received it as a performance model 3 without auto pilot. I have tested and it does do 0-60 in approx 3.1 sec. I paid $65.2k for it and that is what my online docs say. So how could this car have started out as just a model 3 with dual motor with autopilot and delivered as a performance model 3 without autopilot?
The lead mechanic at tesla told me it’s not just a different software. He told me the difference but I can’t remember what it was. I will have to text him and ask him again.
I‘m an electric motor designer for more than 20 years and I can assure you that electric motors are not ‚burned in‘. What purpose would that process serve, anyway? There are no mechanical parts in an electric motor that reposition themselves after a certain operating time.
I do not know the difference between AWD and P but I read somewhere that the motors are the same. Just the P-inverters are different and can deliver more current. Technically, this sounds quite reasonable. But, I have no insight knwoledge and maybe it‘s really only software (besides suspension, tires, brake discs and brake calipers, of course).
In my dual motor non-P, I rarely ever hear the front motor whine, except this one time when I took off from a stop light in the a big rainstorm. Immediately I thought whoa what's wrong with the car, what's up with the noise. Then it hit me - it was the front motor working hard. I made a post about it a while back titled front motor in the rain.
This brought back memory of my test drive of the Performance car. Every time I got on the throttle I could hear the front motor. I believe some of the performance gain of the P comes from the much more aggressive use of the front motor, among whatever other differences there might be. As I said above, in my non-P I rarely ever hear the front motor.
The P pulls much harder than non-P. I gotta admit I was slightly disappointed the first time I got on the throttle after I picked it up, having only test driven the RWD and P prior to delivery of my car. I was expecting the non-P to feel something between the RWD and P, but it feels more like the RWD, at least in taking off from a stop.
I would be seriously tempted if Tesla offered a performance DLC for dual motor cars.
Don't bet against Musk. If Musk said double burn in I believe him. I don't think he would have made that up for marketing.
For anyone saying that Non-P AWD owners are silly to hope for this, please explain P3D-. Those cars were effectively upgraded for $5k. By the time I purchased, P3D- was not an option. I wasn't interested in 20 inch summer tires and a lower suspension, so skipped the Performance upgrade.
Maybe Musk would charge more than $5k, but I see little reason why they wouldn't want to make more money with a software upgrade that increases 0-60 time to shy of Performance but better than it is now.
P3D- Was marketed and sold as a Performance version, without the bling, wheels, and brakes.
P3D- got the motors that went through the same qualifying process as the P3D+
8 ball, how do you explain the many cases reported here of customers ordering P3D-, being presented an AWD, and SC pushing an update? Let me guess, they were built as P but the wrong software was loaded so they corrected that.
That would be one explanation. When you say "many" how many is that? I have been here a few months and I read 3 cases of that and I have zero validation that those stories are real.
There is no validation that any story on here is real
Some can build credibility to the point where I have more trust that they are real. Credibility of those that use "many" when there are not many, is low in view.
Even if there are some slight hardware differences, it's silly to believe that software couldn't alter the 0-60 times of some of AWD's.
@Baltfan Who believes that?
My own "speculation" on this..... P3D- is a software difference. Binned motors + higher price reduces risk for Tesla - the motors will see a software allowed higher severity of service level, so the design margin protecting from warranty claims is narrower. AWD could become P- with a software upgrade, and a price for the update to mitigate said risk.
P+ has hardware differences, as amply noted above, in addition to the binned motors. The motor warranty risk issues involved are the same, as the different hardware is elsewhere. AWD cannot become P+ with a software change, due to those differences.
I vote software.
With the hopes of being able to purchase it for say $2500 some day.
Elon says many things that are not correct even though I am his biggest fan.
Such as how much horse power my P85D had, totally wrong and was sued by people in Europe or Netherlands. Taking stock public, many others, the P3 motor comments are marketing.
Selling full self driving when it was many years away, now it is off the web site.
Fine to remain skeptical but planting the idea that P can or will be a software upgrade for AWD is not based in fact, just speculation.
This thread is at least the third one on this subject, with the same circular arguments and conjecture. Even if an AWD put out the same power as a P it wouldn't be a P because it doesn't have the same suspension setup and brakes (and possibly inverter output).
But one thing that is true is that the AWD cars have the same rear motor as the RWD cars but the AWD rear motor power output is less, which can only be a software limit. (189KW vs 202KW) If that software limit was removed you'd have a livelier AWD but it still wouldn't compete with the P version, which appears to provide 211KW from the rear motor.
IMHO the "fart on demand" selection should remove the software limit until the fart is completed.
@Sparky Apparently you do not seem to understand that there are two different P versions.
The P version with PUP (performance upgrade package) is the only version sold currently. I, and others own P version without PUP.
Yes, my comments are based on what is currently available to purchase. And a correction on my part, according to the latest EPA figures both the RWD and the P put out 211KW from the rear motor, which, I'm sure is possible from the AWD rear motor were it not software limited.