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60Kwh Battery Issues, what is enough degrad for a replacment?

60Kwh Battery Issues, what is enough degrad for a replacment?

Hello all,
I have a 2014 Model S 60kwh battery with 121k miles, getting close to battery warranty expiration. I have constantly seen a degrade which I fully expected, but now it is making it almost useless. The full charge is now at 157 miles RR. Which the car was rated for 205 at the beginning. A normal 90% is now 145 and dwindling, I recall a day when 90% was 180. Like I said I expect a 5-10% decrease, but this is becoming an issue. Last week I had mobile service to replace yet another door handle and mentioned this, they did a check and noticed an "isolation fault" and mentioned I should schedule a SC appointment asap. I did, only to get a mobile appointment for tomorrow. The issue is, the Mobile tech from last week called and said, he was mistaken and it was actually a "assertion" and this is normal, but I shouldn't bother to come in as the extensive battery check done remotely shows the battery shows normal degradation.

I also drained the battery to 10% remaining, then did a full 100% charge, but it said Charge complete but stopped at 90%. Something has to be wrong, and I wonder why Tesla wont share the report with me. I just am given thier word and expected to accept that.

My question is, is anyone going through this, what should i do. The car is only worth at this point $15k according to KBB and i read a replacement battery i s $18k, should I get out of this car? And whats to say another S/X wont do the same thing 5 years later? Sorry to be negative, just starting to panic.
-Michael

Bighorn | 15 Janvier 2020

There was no specific degradation number on the S, but it’s 30% on the 3. Getting another S would get you an unlimited mile warranty/8 year, so 5 years shouldn’t be a concern. Plus you’re starting out with a whole lot more range and a vastly better car.

GoldAK47 | 15 Janvier 2020

If it was me, I would drain to 0%. Then you have a change that one of the weak cells will drop enough to trigger the faults. Get the tesla scan app on your phone so you can see individual cell voltages, chances are some cells are dropping. If they are all balanced well, not much you can do.

akikiki | 15 Janvier 2020

mgodfre3, Sell it. Carmax, private sale, put it on Autotrader or Craigslist. Then go buy a '17 and get a 90 or maybe 100 battery, if you don't want to dive into a brand new car. You have options.

GoldAK47 | 15 Janvier 2020

And yes, another S will do the same thing years down the road. Once you get over 100k, it starts to get common. I know I know...people here will say its not true, but I see it in the car industry first hand. I saw at least 15 at tesla getting replacements. The batteries are great, but they can only do so much, the weak ones fail and cause low range and battery faults....even though 95% of the battery is fine.

TeslaTap.com | 15 Janvier 2020

@Gold - According to this, average is about 10% degradation with 160,000 miles. https://ww.electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/# There will be outliers on both sides of this average. It seems like @mgodfre3 has more than average if the range calibration was done. It sounds like it couldn't' complete if he was never able to charge to 100%, so the degradation number is not clear.

When you say the car industry - are you talking about other ICE vehicles or EVs made with different battery technologies that other car companies use? Neither of these seem applicable, as Tesla uses its own battery formulation and charging systems.

I've never seen a battery being replaced at Tesla service, and I look in whenever I'm there, but I'm not there every day looking at what's going on. Fifteen sounds crazy high unless you're at the European shop where every new car sold has the new battery shipped separately and installed in Europe. What shop did you see this? Were these begin replaced due to damage, failure or degradation?

mgodfre3 | 15 Janvier 2020

Thanks everyone, Im at a loss I just dont see how an $80k car isnt lasting me at least 10 years. The range is becoming a problem, and in further degrad and my wife cant drive the car, she drives 70 mile per day RT and comes home now with 50 miles or so remaining, meaning we cant do much else until its charged back up.

I dont want to simply buy another car, but am beginning to wonder if I have no choice. How sustainable is this really?

Bighorn | 15 Janvier 2020

The earliest batteries were lasting around 200k miles it seemed. Not many were accruing miles as fast as I and mine lasted 197k. Tesloop taxi lasted 200k. Aspirationally, the million mile battery is on deck. Fortunately, $80k buys a 373 mile Model S now or two Model 3s.

Mathew98 | 15 Janvier 2020

I was told below 150 miles RR was the magic number for the SC to look at battery degradation for the S60. They also said 3-5% annual degradation was within acceptable window.

I have the same year and model and my 100% SOC was 165 four months ago. That was after a 2,500 mikes road trip that cycled through 2-100% a few times.

Mathew98 | 15 Janvier 2020

Mike's/miles

Bighorn | 15 Janvier 2020

The mike autocorrect is the bane of my existence:)

Are you saying you can not charge past 90% at all or just had that one interruption? If the former, you have a case for malfunction and therefore a free replacement.

GoldAK47 | 15 Janvier 2020

@tesla, when I say car industry, I mean Tesla. Not ICE, not nissan, not toyota. I pay attention and deal with teslas. I buy them, drive them, sell them. I have a 20yr background in lithium cells, and know the differences and understand them more than most here. I know one of the reps at the auction that deals with teslas every single day. Anytime I see one in question, he will tell me the issue the car has. Most are battery, and he has said many times...once they hit 150k, the batteries are done. This isnt a guy speculating, this guy is dealing with them daily. I have bought the cars, and sure enough...they were bad batteries and ended up parting them out. ( these are not wrecked, salvaged, flooded, etc.)

In perfect world, yes they would go further. If you test ONE cell, you can likely get 1800-2000 cycles. But throw 7000 in the mix, and you have cells fighting. It helps them stay propped up with a weaker cell wants to fail....but also drags down the stronger cells.

Then there is real world examples. Tesloop said they have 400k on a car....with what 3 different batteries? Yea..um...

My car at 160k, battery failed. Not 10%...it would not drive. Module 10 lost two groups of cells bringing down the entire pack.

Do I love the cars? Absolutely. Best EV made? Without question. Im looking forward to the new battery technology.

Bighorn | 15 Janvier 2020

Tesloop's first vehicle had a battery malfunction at 200k miles. Subsequent models have gone more miles without a replacement battery. I think they have 7 vehicles beyond 300k miles. I had a module fail, but I could still drive from Quebec to NYC to get a new HV pack. Basically, lost 15% capacity with the failure. Car was otherwise unremarkable.

mgodfre3 | 15 Janvier 2020

Si charged from 10% to 100% last Friday and it stopped at 90% saying charge complete. I am running down the battery this week doing only daycare runs (to keep miles low and in warranty) and will charge to 100% asap. I have a mobile service appointment tomorrow for this, but what can they do mobily on this? Car is currently at 40% with 65 mile RR.

Bighorn | 15 Janvier 2020

Battery diagnostics can be done remotely. Mine was diagnosed from 2000 miles away by a ranger I know. 65/0.4 = 162.5 or 22% loss from new, if capable of charging to 100%.

jordanrichard | 15 Janvier 2020

"150K the batteries are done", hmmm I wonder how I have managed to go 25,000 miles beyond that and counting........

I have a '14 S85, 175,000 with 6% loss.

Also by what measure is that rep using to define "done"?

jordanrichard | 15 Janvier 2020

"Car is currently at 40% with 65 mile RR.", where, Chicago, the Everglades, Maine, LA, etc......

BTW 65 miles at 40% equal 162 miles at 100%

Mathew98 | 15 Janvier 2020

Statistics are nothing but lies without proper qualifications.

Think about this for a moment. What types of cars go through auction in general? More importantly, what condition would these MS be for them to show up in auctions? I would assume most MS owners would trade in for an upgrade or sell them privately.

The ones that show up in auctions would presumably have issues that even Tesla won't buy them back or recondition them for sale as CPOs. What do you get from the bottom of the pile?

jordanrichard | 15 Janvier 2020

Once a Tesla or any EV for that matter, is no longer being looked after by either the OEM dealer or owner, they just sit in lots, not plugged in, losing range and just being treated like another car on the lot. The when some "tire kicker" comes along and wants really go for a joy ride and flogs the crap out of it, what shape would you expect them to be in.

mgodfre3 | 15 Janvier 2020

@jordanrichard Orlando, FL.

mgodfre3 | 15 Janvier 2020

I agree that 165 should be full range but thats still like Bighorn said, a 22% loss.

rxlawdude | 15 Janvier 2020

"people here will say its [battery degradation COMMON after 100K miles] not true, but I see it in the car industry first hand. I saw at least 15 at tesla getting replacements. The batteries are great, but they can only do so much, the weak ones fail and cause low range and battery fault."

So you're a used car salesperson. Lots of credibility.

egonzo420 | 15 Janvier 2020

2013 S60, with 64K miles, in Austin, TX. I just went and checked (as I always have it just set to %) but at 51% I'm at 85 miles of range. So about 166 or so full, down from 174 in June when I checked last. I could re-calibrate and get some of that back, perhaps. ( I don't really supercharge, have my daily set to 70%, and charge at home at 7kw/30 amps, commute 3 days a week about 40 miles round trip.)

egonzo21 | 15 Janvier 2020

oops, was logged in under my wife's car. All still applies though.

TeslaTap.com | 15 Janvier 2020

@Gold - Thanks for the expanded details. So are most of those 150K plus battery replacements due to degradation or actual failures? For failures, I'd expect all cars are still in the 8-year warranty window. With a high-mileage early Model 60s, they could be beyond the 125,0000-mile battery warranty limit, and maybe one reason they are showing up at auction houses.

Also, I would expect heavily used Model 60s are going to have more degradation than other models. The 60 would need to be charged more often and likely closer to the limits for the same miles driven at the same time as an 85 or other larger battery models. That's one reason the warranty is unlimited for all other Model S variants, ignoring the S40.

wagner.kyle88 | 15 Janvier 2020

To be fair, my used car dealer that i bought my tesla from sells several a week because they are like hot cakes and he knew jack about teslas.... even though he owns several at any given time.
"In perfect world, yes they would go further. If you test ONE cell, you can likely get 1800-2000 cycles. But throw 7000 in the mix, and you have cells fighting. It helps them stay propped up with a weaker cell wants to fail....but also drags down the stronger cells."
So are you just bad at math, or doing something extravagant that would degrade the battery prematurely?
7000 cycles - even if it was at 150 miles/charge - would be over a million miles. Or put another way, are you charging it twice a day every day of the week for 10 years+?

Bighorn | 15 Janvier 2020

7000 cells, not cycles.

trevor58 | 16 Janvier 2020

194,000 miles with 9% loss
Agree with @jr. Battery definitely not “done”

egonzo21 | 16 Janvier 2020

trevor, 85? or 60?

mgodfre3 | 16 Janvier 2020

I just got done with Mobile Service tech, who was very understanding. We talked through the issue, and I think its safe to say that a full range charge of 159 miles seems a bit low (I did a 100% charge last night and got 159RR). Looking through KBs internally he found that it could be a miscalculation error that's common on 30-70SOC before recharge daily. My wife gets home with 30-40% then we charge to 90% when she drives the S, the 3 only needs a charge every 3 days. If that's true, it could be a missing Phantom 20 or so miles RR. We needed to do more tests, but his connection to internal KB articles was not working. So we scheduled a SC appointment to look more into it. A very reasonable explanation IMO. All I really wanted was to know why, and if I am having battery issues. It turns out I might not, but a miscalculation is still an issue that needs to be resolved.

If I had 175 RR at 100% like I had one year ago at 100k miles, I would be accepting, but 159RR@100% seems pretty low, unless I'm crazy. I think Tesla is doing a great job, and I understand their hesitation to replace a battery given the expense, but I also want a car that lasts 10 years and while i agree there is an early adoption cost, this is not something I will take lightly.

Thanks everyone for all the replies, you have been very helpful. Hopefully I can get this resolved.

egonzo21 | 16 Janvier 2020

mgodfre3, hope everything turns out for the best. Please give us an update after our SC visit as it seems you and I are in a very similar boat and I'd be interested to hear how the miscalculation was remedied.

Renzo | 16 Janvier 2020

I have a 2013 60 and my 100% charge gives me 184 miles. (80,000 miles)

diegoPasadena | 16 Janvier 2020

I haven't charged fully in a long time, but my 90% (the last line I think is 90, not 80, right?) is 170 miles.

jordanrichard | 16 Janvier 2020

With reference to what Mobile service said about the calculations being off. That is indeed a common occurrence. The algorithms can get wonky when the SCO gets kept within a narrow range. Think of the battery/algorithms as a rubber. If you keep stretching it to only “x”, over time you forget just how far it can really be stretched. The battery needs to be exercised from time to time.

RedShift | 16 Janvier 2020

Mine does 200. I have 75K miles on my 2013 S60 with type A battery (the first one they made).

mikefa | 16 Janvier 2020

@ TeslaTap.com

"The 60 would need to be charged more often and likely closer to the limits for the same miles driven at the same time as an 85 or other larger battery models. That's one reason the warranty is unlimited for all other Model S variants, ignoring the S40".

Personally i believe the Model S 40 batteries are the least abused because the maximum charge allowed would always be 80% of its capacity - Tesla should not have 125,000 mileage limit on the Model S 40 batteries.

Aaviper3 | 20 Janvier 2020

I have a 2013 60 and my 100% charge gives me 183.62 miles according to Teslafi. (105,536 miles). Rated range 165.34. I charge to 85% daily and 90% top off before I drive to work every morning.

Aaviper3 | 20 Janvier 2020

Last time I asked about a battery replacement, SC said $10,000 to replace but didn't mention what size battery it would be

kevonandmarion | 20 Janvier 2020

@Michael

For context, I have a 60kWh from March 2013, battery failed after 1 year and was replaced at about 10k miles.

100% charge for the new battery was 208 miles at a supercharger 203 at home, not sure why they is a difference. Now almost 6 years after the replacement and now at 57k miles 100% charge at supercharger is 196 and at home 193. This drop happened in the first year so i am hopeful 10% is the limit and i pray your experience is an outlier. Good luck!

Kevon