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Graphene batteries, 5 X energy density of best Li-Ion(Model S) this summer?

Graphene batteries, 5 X energy density of best Li-Ion(Model S) this summer?

http://nextbigfuture.com/2016/03/spanish-company-graphenano-claims.html

Basically:

1. 5 X times more energy density than the best Li-Ion(1000 Wh/kg vs 200Wh/kg on Tesla Model S)

2. Up to 400 charge and discharge cycles have been carried out without loss of capacity appreciated.

3. They will be much safer than Li-Ion, no explosion danger meaning less protection needed which translates in a lot less total battery weight ,especially for cars.

4. They will get much cheaper over time since graphen is carbon that is abundant and 100% ecological unlike Lithium.

5. Chint a Chinese energy company bought 10% in Grabat and the right to produce the batteries in China for China.

6. Production is set to begin this summer.

7 They say that they signed a deal with Airbus to sell them batteries and 2 other european car manufacturers tested their prototype batteries.

8. They are certified by TUV(the most important european certification company)with 1000Wh/kg, 5X Li-Ion density.

Has Tesla tried to contact them? To test their prototype batteries?

If this is for real then WOW,I will be speechless,finally I'll be able to tour the whole world on pennies, although I'll feel bad about Tesla's gigafactory, might be hard to convert it to graphene. This might be a reason why Tesla does not want graphene batteries, they will loose their biggest bet, the gigafactory that is on Lithium.

Also this might be vaporware like a million other battery technology news we had so far promising to be better than Li-Ion but never reach market, conspiracy by oil industry or hard to manufacture in factory versus laboratory conditions or whatever, they never reached market.

yongliangzhu68 | 5 mai 2016

There are 100's of laboratory advancement experiment announcements every year of new battery tech that is going to revolutionize the world.

Hi_Tech | 5 mai 2016

Please don't make the assumption that the GigaFactory cannot be modified to build something different than a Li-Ion battery. Especially considering Tesla is probably one of the largest researchers in this field. They have a lot to gain by getting a new battery chem that can actually do what many of these new battery articles claim, for a reasonable price and high safety.

carlgo2 | 5 mai 2016

Production models of new tech batteries probably won't match the theoretical specs or cost estimates for some time. It is always that way. In the meantime existing tech will get better and perhaps a lot cheaper. It is a moving target for competitors.

nightwolf9ss | 6 mai 2016

aa

nightwolf9ss | 6 mai 2016

They claim this summer(in 1 month) we'll have them on market,that's the difference as opposed to other battery news that says 5 to 20 years away usually.

Hi_Tech if they can retool it to make graphene batteries that would be awesome, that is if these graphene batteries are really like what they say, because no conventional car manufacturer will use graphene batteries, it will hurt their gasmobile business. If it was not for Tesla it would have taken another 50 years to have a Tesla Model 3 like EV.

carlgo2 yes for most discoveries but they say they already built prototypes that have those specs and the final ones should have close specs, much better than Li-Ion. Li-Ion is 40 year old tech and is advancing at a very slow pace.

danielpf | 6 mai 2016

The given link is not serious. They claim that the battery can hold 3 times (not 5 times) the energy of a Li-ion batterry (at same volume or same weight?) but can charge "in five minutes". This is insane, because whatever the battery properties, charging 3 times the energy amount in a fraction of the time requires a huge instantaneous power. 3 times the energy over a fraction (say 1/10) demands 30 times the power. Most EV chargers will be unable to deliver that in the coming years. The most capable chargers now are the Tesla SC with 120kW power, and some projects aim at the 150-180kWh power. These new batteries would require rather 3600 kW charging power...

The other problem is that the tested 400 charging cycles is a low figure in regards of the Li-ion 1000-5000 cycles, which still could improve substantially in the coming years. There is no serious reason why more cycles have not been tested, so one must conclude that this number is a maximum yet.

The final and crucial problem is obvioulsy cost. Raw material may be cheap and abundant (like silicium) but the final cost may be dominated by manufacturing costs.

nightwolf9ss | 6 mai 2016

There are many news about it, Google Grabat batteries, tried to link many of them but got blocked due to spam filter,hence the 'aa" test comment.

I know there are some inconsistencies among the news, they also have a website and other social media accounts.

They said 400 cycles with no loss of capacity, in Li-Ion you see a loss after 400cycles!

Charging power is not a problem, any type of power chargers can be built, it's the current Li-Ion batteries that can't take more than 130kW otherwise it will fry them or seriously harm their capacity.

This sounds too good to be true I know, that's why I'm trying to find out for myself if it's for real, I would convert my current car to electric, I can get a cheap electric motor and the electronics for it, the batteries are the big problem.

So I'm hoping for more info on this, a Tesla official saying their opinion about it would be nice.

jordanrichard | 6 mai 2016

nightwolf9ss, and there are ICE alcohol drag race cars that can hit 300 mph in 3 seconds, but the engines don't last very long before having to be rebuilt. Just because Airbus agreed to buy some, doesn't mean they are useful for cars.

Dramsey | 6 mai 2016

They claim this summer(in 1 month) we'll have them on market,that's the difference as opposed to other battery news that says 5 to 20 years away usually.

How much money would you, personally, be willing to bet that we will be able to buy one of these batteries this calendar yet? Because I'll match your bet. We can have someone else here on the forum hold the money.

SamO | 6 mai 2016

“My top advice really for anyone who says they’ve got some breakthrough battery technology is please send us a sample cell, okay. Don’t send us PowerPoint, okay, just send us one cell that works with all appropriate caveats, that would be great. That sorts out the nonsense and the claims that aren’t actually true.” - ELON MUSK

http://insideevs.com/tesla-ceo-elon-musk-breakthrough-battery/

nightwolf9ss | 6 mai 2016

jordanrichard it does not mean they are not useful either.

Dramsey considering past start-ups history in batteries(mostly failures) the chances are very slim yes.....same it was for cars, 100 years no new major car company then comes Tesla....that's why Tesla forum is the only place I chose to waste my time talking about it, only Tesla could license the tech and mass manufacture it, the rest don't want to.

SamO yes I remember him saying that but maybe he should reach out to them not wait for them to reach out to him, and he should get an entire prototype battery not just the cells, patents might be involved there.

jordanrichard | 6 mai 2016

They are not use full if their life span is short.

SamO | 6 mai 2016

@nightwolf9ss,

Tesla should reach out to vaporware producer #2954502919494 . . . mmmm . . . nah.

And patents don't have anything to do with it unless they don't have any.

nightwolf9ss | 6 mai 2016

jordanrichard 400cycles with no loss means bigger lifespan than Li-Ion not shorter!!!

SamO I understand your skepticism,I'm the same and Tesla exec probably are the same but Tesla has nothing to lose, either the prototypes work as intended or not and they must have patents for them otherwise they will get copied especially by chinese.

I only suspect those european car manufacturers(VW?) that tested them don't have a interest in building a true EV, I will email them and see if they send me a prototype but I don't think they will.

yongliangzhu68 | 6 mai 2016

You can be guaranteed that when any promising revolutionary battery happens Apple, Tesla, Matsushita Electric, Google, Samsung, ........ will be all over it and fighting it out with BIG cash. If it is 'hidden' like this post is about then it is 'pie in the sky'. They will not need a public forum to show them the light.

nightwolf9ss | 6 mai 2016

wj ok I'm lazy but you guys are even more so, just look it up on google or yahoo search, it's on many websites.

Dramsey | 7 mai 2016

Nightwolf9ss, since you already seem to be aware the "magic battery" announcements are a dime a dozen, and that not a single one has panned out over the last 20 years (lithium ion cells were introduced in the late 90s), why do you think this one has any better chance of succeeding?

(Although I guess you really don't since you're not taking the bet...)

Tesla has a lot of very, very smart people-- people who actually know quite a lot about engineering, physics, and battery chemistry-- working for them. It's a safe bet that they'll be on top of any significant advances in battery tech long before you're aware of it.

nightwolf9ss | 7 mai 2016

Dramsey I'm a bit optimistic yes because I want to tour the entire Europe( lots of Tesla and non Tesla chargers here) for very little money spent on electricity(also no gasmobile maintenance either), I'm currently a student in Systems engineering ,I got free time but not gas money for such a trip. I can get cheap electric motor/electronics to convert my old car, just need a better battery than what is now for sale.

In the future I'd like to own a Model 3 but until then a converted gasmobil to EV would be awesome.

Dramsey | 7 mai 2016

So, your basis for touting this magic battery is...hope. Not science or chemistry or engineering. Hope.

Well, hope is cheap. Indulge yourself.

And if it doesn't pan out, don't worry: there's always another magic battery around the corner.

nightwolf9ss | 8 mai 2016

On what science/engineering can you judge a "internet" battery? There are just words in some articles...you can't tell for sure if they're true or not.

You can only hope one of them will be much better than today's Li-Ion ,otherwise EV's for middle class people will not become a reality while I'm still young to travel(Model 3 will cost above 40.000 Euro base model here because of taxes and shipping).

Poorer people are those one that will care more about cheaper electricity than gas, even Elon said Model S owners don't care about cheaper electricity compared to gas, they just want a EV.

yongliangzhu68 | 8 mai 2016

1) Hope is for lottery tickets

2) Science is for empirical evidence

3) Production is based on real world accomplishments.

4) Presenting sensational data to acquire funding from a hopeful (see #1) small compony is between desperate and a scam.

When or if a REAL battery breakthrough happens it will be a slug fest with Apple, Tesla, Google, Panasonic, Samsung.....throwing "wads of sweaty cash" trying DESPERATELY to acquire the technology. It will also be screaming FRONT PAGE NEWS on every website and news outlet.

Most likely one of this BIG companies will be the one to make the 'invention' since the top battery engineers in the world work for and have access to near unlimited R&D budgets for battery development technology.

Now lets wait and see what next weeks 'pie in the sky' breakthrough battery technology brings.

Remnant | 8 mai 2016

AFAIK, Sulphur+graphene technology is already a part of Tesla's new series of batteries, including the Gigafactory output. It seems some of the guys on this thread are fighting yesterday's war.

yongliangzhu68 | 8 mai 2016
yongliangzhu68 | 8 mai 2016

Remnant, Tesla currently uses the Panasonic NCR18650 cell.

https://industrial.panasonic.com/cdbs/www-data/pdf2/ACA4000/ACA4000CE240...

The GF won't start actually cell production until near the end of the year o first of next year. We don't know for sure what Tesla and Panasonic new cell will be. However it will be an evolutionary improvement in Lit-ion and not some 'pie in the sky' revolutionary 5x improvement.

nightwolf9ss | 8 mai 2016

@Remnant there is nothing new about Panasonic batteries nor are they made of graphene, 10 other manufacturers make the same Li Ion batteries.

@wj I didn't see them giving interviews to any major news in order to get funding from anybody unlike Envia did to get GM to license, they seem to keep it low key, just 2 weeks ago I found out about them.

Actually Elon said that Gigafactory will only make batteries cheaper by scale not better. It it better than nothing though.

In the end how many revolutionary things have happened in the last 100 years? very few because big business will fed us little crumbles even if they manage such breakthroughs, that's why I put my hopes in little companies not big ones like Apple,samsung etc

If in a month or two these graphene batteries don't hit market to convert my car to EV I'll convert the car to natural gas which is 2.5X cheaper than gasoline,I'll have no more trunk space because of the extra canister, a compromise but what can you do....

Yes I think I jumped the gun here with them ,oh well, I mean its general about batteries not just these graphene ones, if you got other examples please post them.

nightwolf9ss | 8 mai 2016

One a second thought , until they market something maybe we should not waste our time talking about it considering so many promises that were not fulfilled in the past.

With the whole Model 3 mania I got carried away ....thread closed as far as I am concerned.

brando | 8 mai 2016

Here is the best overview of Li Ion Batteries I have found. Watch this and know more than the other 99%

https://youtu DOT be/ISEzvNevyck

Published on May 20, 2015
Increased demand for energy storage in consumer electronics, electric vehicles and the power grid presents opportunities and challenges for rechargeable battery research and development. Lithium ion batteries have been the dominant power source for consumer electronics. This lecture reviews the existing technology and presents promising future battery technologies that could have significantly higher energy density, lower cost, better safety and longer life. Novel battery chemistries and materials are key to a revolutionary change. SLAC facilities can play an important role in fundamental and applied research on batteries.

Yi Cui is an associate professor at Stanford University and SLAC National Accelerator Laboratory. He received a bachelor’s degree from the University of Science and Technology of China in 1998 and a PhD from Harvard University in 2002. He was a Miller Postdoctoral Fellow at the University of California, Berkeley from 2003 to 2005. Cui is an associate editor of Nano Letters and a co-director of the Bay Area Photovoltaic Consortium, which is funded by the U.S. Department of Energy. He founded Amprius Inc. in 2008 to commercialize high-energy battery technology.

eric.zucker | 8 mai 2016

There are many aspects to batteries.

One is energy density. obviously, both from a volumetric and mass perspective.
Cost is critical.
Also important is the tolerated rates of charge/discharge, i.e. how fast you can store and release energy.
Then comes longevity, how many cycles the battery can perform without degradation.
Self-discharge rate.
Memory effect, if you cycle regularly form 50 to 80%.
Behavior in deep discharge situations.
Thermal issues, how does the battery perform in cold/hot weather, while charging, while powering the car. Mechanical resistance to vibration and shocks.
Availability of raw materials. Ease of manufacturing.
Recyclability at the end of life.
Environmental impact of the entire cycle, from mining, transporting, transforming, using, and recycling.
Health hazards under normal and abnormal conditions.

I'm certainly missing other aspects, these are just a few that come to mind.

There are lots of fascinating lab discoveries, with cells that last 200k+ cycles, charge in 2-3 minutes, and have much higher energy density. Unfortunately, these discoveries are all distinct, i.e. they have not merged into a single cell yet.

There has never been this much interest in battery technology, progress is being made, in a few years energy storage won't be an issue anymore.

We are helping this change by supporting the EV industry, and provide the underlying demand that spurs the investments in the fundamental research.

Rushing immature products to market is detrimental - let's make sure we understand and have a reasonable amount of confidence in these innovations before we commit to them.

brando | 9 mai 2016

wj - great articles, thanks.

clpx123 | 10 mai 2016

http://www.teslarati.com/tesla-hybrid-battery-extended-range/

Maybe the Model 3 will have something like this in it. Model S has already a hidden battery that can be unlocked, Who knows, maybe the newer Model S already have it and that has something to do with the 100 found in an update?

yongliangzhu68 | 10 mai 2016

clpx123, Unrelated to the thread but.......

The MS/MX contains a little over 7,000 cells. However in the 70 it contains some 'dummy' cells. I believe Tesla is waiting for Panasonic to increase the capacity of the cells (about 10%) but they are not ready yet. Tesla got tired of waiting and replaced some 'dummy' cells with lit-ion cells on the 70. Since this cost Tesla more they leave them off and offer as an option. Probably when Panasonic increases the capacity Tesla can offer the 75 with the original (or less) cells and offer at the 'standard' price.

This would mean the 90 is a 90 (since there are no dummy cells) until the higher capacity cells come on-line.

Someone with more knowledge feel free to correct me.

sp_tesla | 10 mai 2016

Very promising potential range increase, at 400-500 miles everyone would jump in with 2 feet.