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Anyone have Model S charging information?

Anyone have Model S charging information?

I did a search on Tesla Model S charging white papers and all I came up with was press release related information on Tesla's Superchargers.

My Zero has an on board 1kw charger that charges the battery at 1/9C (9kw battery). It accepts 110 or 220V via a standard (high current) IEC printer type power cord. The 2013 models will also accept a CHAdeMO high speed charger. The Zero's battery is around 65V fully charged so the charger is a simple rectifier (AC to DC) regulator combination. The Model S seems to have a lot more going on.

I ordered my S with two on board 10kw chargers. There seems to be a few cord options (wall chargers) and the Supercharger route. Can someone shed some light on what happens between 110V, 220V and Superchargers and the battery with the Model S? My assumption is that all batteries have the same fully charged voltage and that capacity is determined by the number of cell sets in parallel. So, some of my questions would be-

The Model S comes with a Mobile Connector. Is this a simple direct cord from my wall outlet to the plug under the brake light lens?
I ordered the twin chargers which I assume takes the car from having one 10kw charger to two of them on board. Is this correct?
What is the High Power Wall Connector? I ask because $1200 would indicate it is something more than a simple cable from the wall to the car.
Is the connector under the brake lens the only charging connector on the car or does the Supercharger use a different connector?
Does the Supercharger supply high voltage current limited DC directly to the battery bypassing the on board chargers (be they one or two)?
What is the battery voltage of a fully charged battery?
Is the Supercharger supply under the direct supervision and direction of an on board battery management system?

Thanks for helping to fill in these gaps for me

mrspaghetti | 21 novembre 2012

This link answers some of your questions

http://www.teslamotors.com/models/charging

lolachampcar | 21 novembre 2012

Ok From Tesla's web site
Standard cable with 240V and 40 amp service (240V * 40 amps => 9.6kw) will source the full single on board 10kw charger.
The High Power Charger is "twice the faucet" to support two on board chargers. The charger documentation indicates it requires 100 amp service (at 220V of course). Does the High Power Charger simply take the 100 amp 220V service from the back side of it and supply this to the car? Does it use the exact same car side connector and connect to the exact same socket beneath the lens? Put differently, is the connector beneath the lens a 100 amp connector?

can you fill in the rest of the answers?

mrspaghetti | 21 novembre 2012

There is only one "socket" on the car, which accepts the same physical connector that's present on the HPWC, mobile connector or superchargers. The superchargers do bypass the onboard chargers and dump DC directly to the battery, though it's regulated by the car to control rate of charge depending on the current charge level.

I don't know the battery voltage

The mobile connector is not quite a simple cord. It has a button on it that causes the charging port to open when pressed.

lolachampcar | 21 novembre 2012

Thanks for the info. That helps.

Only on connector is used and we know it can handle 100 amps when using two on board chargers. A quick back of the napkin analysis of the Supercharger whould look something like-
Superchargers provide 90kw of DC
The connector is good for at least 100 amps
9000w/100amps => 900V battery fully charged

That is one bad a** battery.

If the current capibility of the car side connector is more then the battery voltage will come down.

Any chance of the technical side of Tesla joining in on this conversation?

JackA | 21 novembre 2012

For sure the HPWC does not supply 100 Amps to the car. It is rated at 80 Amps. The electrician that installed the sub-panel and wire in our garage told me that the "derating" of 20% is to recognize continuous load for more than one hour. Most of us (including Tesla employees) can not tell much more about the HPWC because it is not yet available. I could not even find out where the knockouts are located. It is my understanding that the logic for control of charging is on board the car. And, yes the car side connector is most likely rated at 100 Amp because it is the same for single and dual chargers.

mrspaghetti | 21 novembre 2012

Superchargers operate significantly above 100 amps, probably close to 200. They don't use the mobile connector, but they do have a male plug that fits into the same port on the car. Obviously they use heavier wiring than the mobile connector or HPWC.

DouglasR | 21 novembre 2012

Regarding battery voltage, I asked in another thread, and got this response:

jkirkebo | NOVEMBER 5, 2012
Battery voltage is around 365V nominal. Over at one of the supercharging-treads, someone reported a starting voltage of 358V when charging from ~22% SOC and an end voltage of 396V when full (after 65 minutes).

This is the thread:

http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/40-or-85-kwh

timdorr | 21 novembre 2012

I think you're thinking of voltage incorrectly. Voltage is basically the electrical "pressure" of a circuit. If you're comparing to a gas engine, it would sort of be the PSI of the gas coming out of the tank. And as you might surmise from the example, that value is not really important in terms of how powerful the battery is or how long it lasts. It's certainly related to the wattage and amperage of the battery, but it's more of a derivative value than one that factors into play.

Amperage is important because it represents the flow rate of electrons into or out of the battery. If you're dumping in the 100A HPWC (actually 80A because of breaker overhead), you're obviously putting in much more than the 12A of a standard wall outlet or even the 40A from a NEMA 14-50. In an ICE, this is how much gas you're pumping into the engine, as controlled by your foot on the accelerator or by how much you squeeze the handle at the pump. You're opening that valve more, so if there's sufficient pressure behind it, a lot of gas either goes in from the pump or out into the engine.

Similarly, on the S, if you press down on the accelerator, you get a boost in amperage, as you've opened up more of the battery to push through to the engine and move the car forward. Or on the charging side of the fence, you'll find that you usually get 120 or 240V service and it's just a matter of which size "hose" you can plug into it. It's all over the same connector (though it's usually adapted to different plugs), so the source of electricity determines your amperage/voltage, and therefore your charge rate.

Hope that helps and wasn't too rambling!

dahtye | 21 novembre 2012

I can vouch that the current at a Super Charger is up to 225Amps - I witnessed this while charging my car at the Super Charger station. The display also showed 396V.

So, the socket (or receptacle) on the car can take 396V@225A which is almost 90KW of power! This gives an 85KWHr battery a full charge in a little over an hour - the charge rate drops as the battery gets full (to protect the battery life).

225A is an amzaing amount of current. I once designed board on a system where we had 300A running at 5V. There was oxidation on the connector and the whole connector assembly melted due to the heat caused by the small resistance in the connector system. That technology was 30 years ago - I'm sure connector technology has come a long way since. The connector contacts appear to look silver color (not copper as I would have expected). I wonder if they are aluminmum - which is what the electric company uses for wiring from the utility pole to our home. Maybe the superchargers also use aluminum wire? I noticed the guage (thickness) of the aluminum wire coming to the service stalk at my home is much smaller than the copper wires they connect to that serve my 200 Amp electric panel.

DouglasR | 21 novembre 2012

@timdorr, you're right, except that the proper analogy isn't the "push" of the voltage. It is the "pull" of the motor. I.e., the battery operating at 365 volts isn't pushing electrons into the motor; rather the motor is drawing current from the battery. That's why it is perfectly fine to plug a 10 watt light bulb into a 110 volt circuit. The bulb draws only what it needs.

Brian H | 22 novembre 2012

timdorr;
Definitely too rambling.
??;/p/

LOL

lolachampcar | 22 novembre 2012

The Lithium charge profile is constant current until the battery reaches a set voltage followed by constant voltage until the battery reaches a termination current. The largest load demand on the supply occurs at the cross over from constant current to constant voltage (396 VDc in this case).

90,000 watts / 396 VDc => 227 amps which is HUGE

It makes sense that there would be a separate set of contacts for Supercharging.

So, to summarize-

The cable that comes with the car has a dongle element that opens the brake lens hatch to expose the charging connector in the left rear of the car.
The cable that comes with the car requires 220V 40 amp service to fully support one 10kw on board charger. This would be similar to a dryer circuit.
The High Power Wall Charger requires 220V and 80 amp service to fully support the optional two 10kw on board chargers.
The standard charging contacts on the car side connector must be capable of handling 80 amps continuous current.
Supercharging uses the same connector area under the tail light lens but different contacts. Instead of AC, the Supercharger station provides up to 227 amps of current regulated power at up to the pack voltage limit of 396 VDc. The on board chargers are not needed/used when Supercharging.

That all makes sense. Now it is time to go back to the latest 4/3rds A fat Sanyo cell data sheet and see how many of these batteries are being used in series to generate the pack's voltage and how many sets are used in parallel to provide for the three battery pack options.

Brian H | 22 novembre 2012

bill;
It is interesting that a Supercharger unit actually consists of a dozen of the same chargers that are installed in cars, stacked in series. Elon said that is what makes it so economical for them to put up so many so fast.

lolachampcar | 22 novembre 2012

It would make sense given they seem very comfortable with the basic 10kw charger as a bilding block.

lolachampcar | 22 novembre 2012

Lots of assumptions here.............

http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/includes/pdf/Panasonic-Battery-Energ...

Panasonic Number Nom V Capacity Diameter(4/3rds Fat A type)
CGR26650B 3.6 3300 1.04"
CGR18650KA 3.6 1750 0.73"
CGR18650CH 3.6 2250 0.73"

Using the highest capacity cell from above (the standard 4/3 rds Fat A cell with the larger diameter 1.04") will yield number of cells in series to reach the Model S' nominal voltage. 365V/3.6v => 101 cells. Let's use 100 for round numbers.

Each series set of 100 cells provides 3.3 amp-hr of capacity which translates to 1188 watt-hr (3.3 amp-hr * 3.6 v nominal * 100 cells => 1188 watt-hr). This equates to the following number of series sets and batteries per Model S option-

Pack Capacity Number of Series Sets Total Number of Cells
40kw 33 3300
60kw 50 5000
85kw 71 7100

That 7100 number seems to be close to what I've been told the 85kw battery has.

Brian H | 22 novembre 2012

Here's a pseudo-table using <pre> and <h2> tags:

Pack Capacity Number of Series Sets Total Number of Cells
40kw 33 3300
60kw 50 5000
85kw 71 7100

Timo | 22 novembre 2012

AFAIK Model S uses NCR18650A (not CGR-series), which are not quite standard, but close (something special made for them by Panasonic for Tesla, maybe coating is different or something like that).

http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-cgi/jvcr13pz.cgi?E+BA+3+ACA4001+NCR1...

lolachampcar | 23 novembre 2012

I used a lot of assumptions. I was more interested in getting a handle on the overall concepts employed and hopeful others (like Timo) would be kind enough to populate the thread with details.

Thanks Timo!

Tiebreaker | 23 novembre 2012

The individual car chargers in the superchargers would be stacked in parallel (not in series), since each car charger already produces the needed voltage. In parallel the currents are added, voltage kept the same. (in series, voltages are added, current stays the same).

DouglasR | 23 novembre 2012

I thought the number of cells was public knowledge. I don't know what the number is, but I seem to recall it was north of 8,000. Was that just a guess?

lolachampcar | 23 novembre 2012

I'm sure someone at Tesla has said at some proint what the battery configurations are. I was hoping there would be a white paper somewhere were they provided nerd type details. I did not find one so I started the thread to fill in as much detail as I could about everything from number of batteries to how the capacities are generated and why there are different charging cables and the like.

The more I understand the details the easier it is for me to make informed decisions. It also helps me understand more than just the options proposed/provided by Tesla at this point in time (like fast charging at home).

I need to go back and adjust my calculations based on the cell information provided by Timo.

Tiebreaker | 23 novembre 2012

Bill, you may have already seen this, there is a Tesla write-up about the Roadster battery. I would think they continued along the same architecture for the Model S, of course with significant improvements.

http://www.teslamotors.com/roadster/technology/battery

Carl Barlev | 23 novembre 2012

@DouglasR,

In timdorr's analogy I actually find the term "push" to be more useful in understanding what is going on practically.

Your argument is based on the fact that many people use the term "draw", but if anything it is the use of this term which is misleading and/or "incorrect".

Remember that work requires an energy source. The terms "push" and "pull" imply that work is being done (we know this is the case), but which side does the energy come from?

Timdorr used the common analogy of voltage = pressure:
1. Let us consider then a hydro-turbine.
2. The energy source is the water in the dam.
3. The water pressure pushes the turbine around.
4. The turbine does not pull the water down from the dam.

In the case of a Tesla's electric motor:
5. The battery is the energy source.
6. The voltage pushes electrons through the motor.
7. The motor impedance and control circuit limit the current.

In the case of regenerative braking:
8. Energy source is the moving car's mass and/or altitude.
9. This kinetic energy turns the motor (acting as a generator).

DouglasR | 23 novembre 2012

@Carl Barlev,

In an electrical circuit, it is the "work" end that determines how much current flows. When you replace a 50 Watt bulb with a 5 Watt bulb, the voltage of the circuit stays the same. The smaller bulb simply draws less current from that circuit. When you want a brighter light, you don't increase the voltage; rather you put in a bulb that will draw more current.

Your example of a hydroelectric is telling. While it is true that water pressure pushes the turbine around, the amount of water flowing through the turbine (as opposed to down the spillway) is controlled by the load. When you apply a large load, for example by supercharging your Tesla, it literally causes the turbine to spin faster. You don't spin the turbine faster in order to push more electricity into the charger.

Most blackouts occur not because generation fails, but because the load exceeds what the generators can produce.

I'm not an electrical engineer, but I've spent a lot of time around electrical engineers, and this is always how it has been explained to me.

Larry Chanin | 23 novembre 2012

"So, the socket (or receptacle) on the car can take 396V@225A which is almost 90KW of power! This gives an 85KWHr battery a full charge in a little over an hour - the charge rate drops as the battery gets full (to protect the battery life)."

dahtye,

Thanks for the information.

I'm trying to get a feel if the Supercharger tappers the charge down to an High Power Wall Connector (HPWC)rate or whether its higher. For instance, suppose the Supercharger charges at an average rate of 300 miles of range for the first 150 miles, but then charges at an average of 62 miles of range for the last 115 miles (in range mode), one would expect a total charge time of around 2.4 hours.

You stated that it took a little over an hour to a full charge so I'm wondering did you do a full charge in Standard or Range mode? What was your intial state of charge when you started Supercharging?

Did you get a feel for when the Supercharger starts to drop the rate of charge? Was is at 50%,75%, etc?

If your car was at a low state of charge then the last 115 miles in Range mode would have to be at a rate higher than an HPWC to get a full charge in a little over an hour.

Larry

Brian H | 23 novembre 2012

It declines on a curve, not like a switch. From 300 mi/hr (average, assuming low SOC to start), to 295, to 290, to 285, to etc. But smoothly.

Larry Chanin | 23 novembre 2012

Thanks, I know that. I'm looking for some examples from Model S owners of actual charging rates as the batteries nears a full charge.

Larry

lolachampcar | 24 novembre 2012

Lithium Ion batteries charge at a constant current up to a certain voltage (determined by the chemistry). Once at this threshold voltage, the charger will reduce current to maintain that voltage. Once the current falls below a threshold, the cell is considered charged.

Practically speaking, this means a cell in a low state of charge (SoC) will charge at a high rate. Once the constant voltage is reached and the charger starts reducing the current to keep from exceeding that voltage, the charge rate slowly diminishes to zero.

You can find a typical charge curve here - http://www.ibt-power.com/Battery_packs/Li_Ion/Lithium_ion_tech.html

This is a 1.8 Amp-Hr cell
The charge profile here is ROUGHLY
The constant current portion is 120 minutes * .9 amps or 2 Amp-Hr
The constant voltage portion is approximately half of a right triangle with a height of .9 amps and a length of 2/3rds of an hour or .3 Amp-Hr
The total charge current in is 2.3 Amp-Hr in this example
The constant current or high speed portion is 87% of the charge cycle
The slower constant voltage portion is the remainder; 13%. The first part of that 13% being almost as fast as the constant current with the last part being way slower.
Note that, for this sample charge curve, it took 2.3 Amp-Hr of charge current in to achieve 1.8 Amp-Hr of charge state. This is "current" charge efficiency. Charge efficiency can also be looked at in terms of Watt-Hr in per Watt-Hr out which is even less efficient.

The Supercharger concept for cross country travel probably relies on charging in the constant current realm for maximum bang for the minute.

lolachampcar | 24 novembre 2012

Blew it
Constant current portion is 1.8 Amp-Hr
Total charge in is 2.1 Amp-Hr
Constant current is 86% with 14% being constant voltage
Current charge eff is 1.8/2.1 or 86%.

' hope these numbers are closer to right.

Larry Chanin | 24 novembre 2012

Thanks Bill I found out what I was looking for here:

http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/1021-miles-3-days-using-supercha...

Larry

Larry Chanin | 24 novembre 2012

"The Supercharger concept for cross country travel probably relies on charging in the constant current realm for maximum bang for the minute."

Bill,

Based on information I received from Tesla I believe the charging curve is much more involved and depends on sophisticated two-way communication between the Supercharger and the battery. Here is what Tesla provided in answer to a question I had:

"They start slow, ramp up, then ramp back down. The shape of the power curve depends on the current battery state of charge, ambient heat, battery heat, and a variety of other factors. Only a Model S and a Tesla Supercharger have this level of communication."

Larry

edavis008 | 29 janvier 2013

If all there is at a charging location is a NEMA 10-30 plug, and all I have is a NEMA 14-50 plug on my Tesla cord, is there an adaptor I can buy to make the NEMA 10-30 plug work for me?

jat | 29 janvier 2013

@edavis008 - there will be an adapter available for purchase from Tesla, but it isn't available yet. You can make an adapter for 10-30, but it is complicated by the fact that there is no ground connection (which the car requires), though the neutral connector is bonded to ground at the panel. If you know what you are doing, some have made an adapter that routes ground on a 14-50 receptacle to neutral on the 10-30 plug (labelled as ungrounded and for Tesla use only), and then tell the car to only draw 24A instead of the 40A it expects because there is a 14-50 adapter on the cable.

edavis008 | 29 janvier 2013

@jat - Thanks. I don't know what I'm doing, and I would only need this occasionally, so it's probably not worth it for me to learn how to route the ground on a 14-50 receptacle to neutral on the 10-30 plug unless it's really easy. Is it really easy?

jat | 29 janvier 2013

@edavis008 - it is easy, but I would hesitate to suggest you do it - it only takes a small mistake for serious consequences when dealing with electrical wiring.

edavis008 | 30 janvier 2013

Okay. What if there is a NEMA 14-30 charging location available and I have a NEMA 14-50 plug for my Tesla. Is there an "off the shelf" adaptor that will work for that application. Many thanks.

jat | 30 janvier 2013

@edavis008 - I don't know of an off-the-shelf adapter, since something plugged into the 14-50 could expect to draw 50A. However, there will be a 30A breaker on the line so there is some safety there, and the 14-30 is a grounded outlet. So, if you had one, you could program the car to draw just 24A and you would be fine.

http://www.stayonline.com/power-ac-adapters.aspx makes custom adapters, and you might get them to build a 14-30P to 14-50R adapter for you if you tell them how it will be used. You might even get a 10-30P adapter as well.

jat | 30 janvier 2013

@edavis008 - one other point -- the 14-50 differs from the 14-30 plug only in the shape of the neutral connector (the one opposite from the rounded ground pin). I haven't tried it and don't know if there would be other ramifications, but you might be able to simply cut off the neutral pin on the Tesla adapter and plug it into a 14-30 outlet (still telling the car to only draw 24A). Of course, if there is an issue, then you are without a working 14-50 adapter.

That's what these guys do to make a plug which can be used with 14-30, 14-50, or 14-60 receptacles in conjunction with an upgraded LEAF EVSE:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEMA-14-30-14-50-to-L6-20-adapter-for-EVSE-Nissa...

nickjhowe | 30 janvier 2013

I made my own 14-30p to 14-50r. Simple enough, but cost c. $50 in parts. Could have done it cheaper but wanted it to look good.

edavis008 | 31 janvier 2013

Looks like someone makes an adaptor for a male L14-30 to a female 14-50R. That's what I would need, right? It's only $21 on Ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/L14-30P-Male-14-50R-Female-18-Dogbone-/121058170...

Theresa | 31 janvier 2013

edavis, I made one myself and the cost for the one you are showing seems to good to be true. It looks as though it would be like what I made but I would be concerned about the quality of the parts used. If it were $30.00 that would be about what I would expect.

And as others have stated you need to make sure to limit current on the dash otherwise you will trip the breaker. But it does work.

jat | 31 janvier 2013

The parts I got for mine were $11 (shipped) for the 14-50 outlet, $16-20/ea for the 10-30 and 14-30 dryer plugs at Sears, and a few bucks for the metallic box and faceplate at Home Depot. So, $21 seems a bit cheap, but not unreasonable if they bought the components in bulk.

However, L14-30 is not the same as 14-30 -- it is locking pins rather than straight pins.

Theresa | 31 janvier 2013

jat, I bought all my stuff at Home Depot. I used a 14-50 box and outlet combo (box looks like an arched doorway) along with some 6 ga. wire (18 inches). Probably overkill on the 6 ga. but that was almost the most expensive part. I had originally made it for my Roadster as I knew places that I had the 14-30 available but not the 14-50. I have not had any issues with it since I made it.

edavis008 | 31 janvier 2013

Thanks jat and Theresa for the great input. I think I'll make my own adaptors. We have to find a charge any way we can until the supercharging stations get built. I'm in Texas, where we don't have any yet.

swysechoice | 31 janvier 2013

I wonder if I can use the 50amp and 30 amp outlets that my motorhome uses?

EVTripPlanner | 31 janvier 2013

Fun engineering stuff...I posted my reverse engineering and charging/range reference charts at http://www.hannelconsulting.com/tesla (see sheet named 'BatteryPack')

I based analysis on the cell that TeslaTap.com says is in the pack (Panasonic NCR18650A). It shows charge/discharge curves, cycle life, etc. My guesstimate was that the batt pack is made up of series-stacks of 95-100 cells, with 70-74 of those stacks in parallel. That would put the required DC voltage for a full charge between 399 and 420 volts.

Remember: voltage is sum of cells in series. Current is single cell current times number of parallel stacks. Voltage is needed to drive motor RPM. Current is needed to create torque. Power is just voltage*current, so our 310 kW P85 corresponds to about 775 amps at 400 volts! Think of it another way: the battery-to-motor path has to handle over 3x the current of the powersource-to-battery path (unless, somehow, the batteries are reconfigured when not charging to provide a much higher voltage to the motor than the 400V or so from the charger)!

My simple input to the original question(s):

* HPWC hardly makes sense at home...mostly you're charging overnight, so NEMA 14-50 should do the trick. If you're on a road trip, the HPWC will hardly do you any good! If you have a "full battery commute" and are home less than 8 hours it is time to change jobs!

* supercharger is 90kW (DC)...a bunch more than the HPWC, which handles around 20kW (240Vx80A)

* car has a couple of 10kW rectifier/charger units on board and enough smarts to load-share or bypass them if you plug in DC supply

* biggest problem I've had is needed Roadster and NEMA 10-30 adapters

nickjhowe | 31 janvier 2013

@edavis008 - don't use the ebay one. That is the L14-30 where 'L' stands for 'locking'. It is NOT a dryer plug.

This is the one I made...
Uploaded from Photo Slice

Hills | 31 janvier 2013

I believe very few % of people needs HPWC. My build was finalized in early August and delivered in early December. Back in August, I considered the HPWC and decided against it. Now that I've had the car for 7 weeks, NOT going with the High Power was good decision for so many reasons. (1) I barely had enough AMPS coming into the house from PG&E to supply the 50 A for the NEMA 14-50. HPWC would have required PG&E to pull new cable to the house, very expensive. (2) I am getting about 23-24 miles per hour on the Nema 14-50. please realize there are several definition of "miles", and even the Model S display always lists two different kinds of "miles". I am using the definition of rated miles, i.e. on a regular charge, the highest rated mile is 240 (268 on max charge). At 24 miles per hour, the most it would take to reach 240 is 10 hours. I almost always have more than 10 hours. (3) since my average use per day is 46 miles, it only takes 2 hours. In fact, to avoid losing charge, I now always lower the Amp significantly so that my car is at 240 miles in the morning. I often use lower than 10 Amp, sometimes even 5 Amp. Who needs HPWC? Someone who drives 200 miles during the day, comes home for a couple of hours, and then needs to go drive another 100 miles.

nickjhowe | 31 janvier 2013

@swysechoice - yes

jat | 31 janvier 2013

One thing that people don't talk about where I think the HPWC helps is this - frequently, I want to head out on an out-of-town trip as soon as I get home from work. Depending on where I am going, I may need to recover the charge used by my commute, and I want to be able to leave as soon as possible. Cutting the time you have to wait in half isn't a bad deal, and then when you add the convenience of not having to pack/unpack the mobile connector and still have it with you in case of emergencies, it seems worth the cost.

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